The Empire & Classical Rome

[NoCarrier]

Hey guys, first-time poster here....

I just recently started listening to the Lave Radio podcast, and in one the earlier episodes the hosts were discussing the part of the design document that dealt with the new game's factions, more specifically the Empire. Apparently, the Empire is going to resemble the Roman Empire in some fashion, with the Emperor at the top of its power structure, senators below him or her, patrons and clients, and so on.

That caused a little bit of cognitive dissonance with me, because for years and years I assumed the Empire had its real-world parallels in the Holy Roman Empire of the Early modern period, or maybe even a Late modern period power like the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I guess it was mostly the feudal ranking system and the classical music that gave me this impression. In my mind's eye, I could clearly see the Empire's high nobility as they frivoled Capitol's nights away, waltzing on tirelessly in the planet's low gravity.

I must admit I'm not all that thrilled with having Imperial Rome in space. I realize it's a bit silly to raise a hue and cry like this, when we barely know anything about else about the Empire, but I had to get it off my chest.

What do you think?

 

[Frank]

Welcome to the forum... ...No Carrier

 

[Cody]

Welcom aboard, NoCarrier.

Rome in Space has been done many times in sci-fi, and is not really to my taste... but there you go.

 

[drew]

I'm afraid I could address this question, but I'm not allowed to. Suffice to say it's only 'aspects' of 'Rome in space'.

Hope that helps and tantalises in equal measure!

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Susimetsa]

Rome this and Rome that is becoming a bit of a trope (if I'm using that word correctly - 'overused' might be better). We have zillions of novels about Romans, some of them even good ones, but very few fiction authors are interested in the Holy Roman Empire or other later periods. The Roman period is seen as 'sexy' and that's probably why the Empire will be "modelled" after them.

But, yes, the Holy Roman Empire and the way the Habsburg Dynasty ruled over it and almost the entire Europe would be a far more interesting period to draw ideas from.

 

[Selezen]

I helped formulate (or at least commented on) the original drafts of the documentation, and the Empire here is only a very rough model of the Roman Empire. The structure and some of the culture is the extent of the similarity. It's not a faithful representation of Rome at any point in its history, at least as far as I'm aware of Roman history.

That said, my opinion (not based on the documentation) is that yes, the Roman model has been overused in fiction. The Empire in Star Wars is very very similar to the exactly-the-same-name The Empire in Elite, and has a very similar model. An all-powerful emperor presiding over a senate where he can veto the senators at will and has almost absolute power. The only thing missing is The Force.

Like most things Elite, however, we're still only at the early stages of fleshing out this universe, and the design docs are a framework over which the real nature of these organisations will be draped. They have plenty of time to evolve and I for one join you in hoping that the similarities with Rome will be limited to the concept only. The stuff I've seen so far seems to take the culture away from a strict simulation of Rome, so there's hope.

There was a comment made before that the concepts for Empire and Federation have been used before in mainstream sci-fi and that Frontier may have lost an opportunity to craft a truly unique intergalactic organisation. However, I think that the Alliance has the potential to be fleshed out into just that, and hopefully will be the element that will differentiate Elite from the others. Interested to know what you think.

And welcome to the forum...

 

[Slawkenbergius]

I too hope the trope isn't overplayed. Then again, I feel the same about pirates, hoping we don't get 'scurvy space-dogs'. The fictional set-up should be its own thing at the end of the day, rather than being too derivative.

Then again, I really liked DB's comments about the soft-power aspect to the Imperial Cruiser being similar to HMS Hood's world tour, with cocktail parties for dignitaries. So I'm hopeful they'll get this right.

 

[Selezen]

Then again, I really liked DB's comments about the soft-power aspect to the Imperial Cruiser being similar to HMS Hood's world tour, with cocktail parties for dignitaries. So I'm hopeful they'll get this right.

That's a case in point for what I was saying. The Romans wouldn't have bothered with a "mobile embassy" - they would just have sent in the legions and practised "diplomacy through intimidation".

 

[NoCarrier]

I'm afraid I could address this question, but I'm not allowed to. Suffice to say it's only 'aspects' of 'Rome in space'.

Hope that helps and tantalises in equal measure!

Cheers,

Drew.

Hey Drew. Your reply most definitely tantalizes, but I'm afraid it doesn't help in quite equal measure.

I understand "Rome in space" is an abstraction to some degree, but it appears to me that Imperial Rome is still going to be the main influence, if only for the structure of government and the way it was described in terms of senators, patrons, clients and proletariat. If it had been described in terms of councilors, peers, citizens and indentured servants, for example, I don't think I would've been so concerned.

It just didn't mesh with my expectations, and I was wondering if I was the only one in this.

 

[Selezen]

It just didn't mesh with my expectations, and I was wondering if I was the only one in this.

I have to admit I always envisioned the Empire as more of a totalitarian communist state (China or the world envisioned in 1984).

 

[NoCarrier]

Interested to know what you think.

Well, I picture the Alliance as a confederation, with the European Union as the best analogy that I can think of. Lots of economic power rivalling that of the Federation or Empire, but as a confederation, the Alliance will always find it hard to act in unison militarily except in the face of the gravest danger. It's an obvious parallel, I guess, but I don't think we need to go for something unique just for uniqueness' sake.

And welcome to the forum...

Hey, thank you! And the rest of you too, of course.

 

[NoCarrier]

I have to admit I always envisioned the Empire as more of a totalitarian communist state (China or the world envisioned in 1984).

Communism and feudalism don't quite mix, so I've been told.

EDIT: Although I can still see where you're coming from if it hadn't been for those feudal titles the Frontier games used for Imperial rankings...

 

[Captain N]

I don't think anyone who saw them as communist could have been paying much attention...

Since it was explicitly stated to be an extreme capitalist society in the manuals and ingame there were very little limitations to what you could legally trade (including slaves!)

 

[Capn Tucker]

There were communist planetary governments in the original Elite (correct me if I'm wrong), but were independent of the Big Three. The Empire will be exactly that, an Empire. They haven't really said if there will be an Imperial Senate, but if there is one, along with provincial governors etc I wouldn't care.
Just don't call them Tribunes, or mention centurions, legions etc.
I guess it doesn't matter much to me, as I intend to operate outside of The Three, in the shadows and on the fringes of known space..

 

[psykokow]

I see why Michael Brookes is so inspired by the Romans.. he had family back then... I found this rare photo of Brookus Caeser..

 

[Scorpio]

I have not warmed to the idea of Romans in space much.It will seem pretty camp without the grit and grime of the 1st century AD. I loved HBO's Rome and the BBC's I Claudius drama,but i do not think it will migrate convincingly to one thousand years in the future. The 19th century Empires of Austria and Russia seem nearer the mark.

 

[OneoftheLost]

I think there is another angle to consider here. If I recall correctly, Battlestar Galactica, the original series, was meant to just be 'Egyptians in space'. With such a broad statement there is a considerable amount of 'wiggle' room here.

For what its worth, I had always considered the Empire to be fairly close to the Holy Roman Empire in structure and feel. Especially with those fantastic FFE newspaper snippets in game. The idea of Imperial Rome as the defining influence makes me feel a bit queasy. Based on those original flavor texts in FFE, I never really got the impression that Rome was a big influence on the Empire in FFE, and I don't know why they would be here.

However, I think its a bit early to jump to any sort of conclusion without some more concrete information on each of the factions.

Lastly,

EDIT: Although I can still see where you're coming from if it hadn't been for those feudal titles the Frontier games used for Imperial rankings...

As I understand it, the modern United Kingdom still hands out Knight titles, which is how I saw the feudal titles of the previous game, I figured it was just a name they had borrowed, and had little direct correlation with their government type.

 

[Allen Stroud]

I have not warmed to the idea of Romans in space much.

Some of the Roman society structures that existed during different periods of Empire and Republic are quite strange to the way in which we perceive Rome in the modern day. When people talk about a science-fiction society modelled on Rome, they could easily be talking about a political society, or a society that borrows from its iconography. Generally we tend to see the latter, but I would suggest you that breastplates and togas are unlikely to be quite what is meant!

An interesting comparison would be a recent discussion that I had with John Harper, Writer of "And Here The Wheel". we were talking about the comparison between the Alliance and the European Union. As a UK citizen, I have a very different perception of what this means, compared to John, who lives in New Zealand. His image of the EU was much more united than my experience of it has been through my life. So, I think it is worth holding fire until more clues are released from the designers.

 

[NoCarrier]

As I understand it, the modern United Kingdom still hands out Knight titles, which is how I saw the feudal titles of the previous game, I figured it was just a name they had borrowed, and had little direct correlation with their government type.

Well, the modern United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy (I know it doesn't quite fit the description, but bear with me). The peerage stems directly from that, so there is most definitely a direct correlation. On the other hand, peerage is anathema to communism. Marx never considered feudalism to be more than proto-capitalism, a quaint leftover in history's inevitable march towards socialism.

However, I do feel the Empire was portrayed as this monolithic, one-minded power. But if there's one thing an empire is not, it's monolithic. Maybe that's the communist aspect you saw in the Empire as it was portrayed in Frontier?

 

[NoCarrier]

An interesting comparison would be a recent discussion that I had with John Harper, Writer of "And Here The Wheel". we were talking about the comparison between the Alliance and the European Union. As a UK citizen, I have a very different perception of what this means, compared to John, who lives in New Zealand. His image of the EU was much more united than my experience of it has been through my life. So, I think it is worth holding fire until more clues are released from the designers.

Oh, we know all about British recalcitrance over here...