The "Friendly Fire" Issue

Bayaz · Dec 30, 2014

Don't know about you guys but I've been flying around in a spaceship shooting at people whose heads someone else has placed a "bounty", if you will, on and quite liking it. The whole futuristic vicarious murder / letter of marque deal pseudo-RP thing is pretty damn fun...

Except for when you're going about your killing and a friendly NPC flies into your line of fire.

All of a sudden everyone's red, you've got to hightail it out of there and get to a station to clear your wanted status. About 8 times today I've had this happen and have had to book it 50-500 LS to the nearest station to clear my name so that I can carry on... After which it inevitably happens again requiring a rinse/wash/repeat of the whole process. I can't help but think that:

- If your fine is less than 1000 credits then the AI should ignore you, treating it like an expiation notice rather than a convenient and timely justification for your murder, understanding that you'll take care of it when you are next able;

- If it was possible to pay off less-than-1000-credit fines without having to go through the entire process of docking and clearing it that way then life would be a lot sweeter;

- In the midst of battle it's quite difficult to see who's what and where is who, so having the ability to remove objects from the RADAR and also assign tags to pretargeted ships would be super nice too. Maybe. I like the previous two more.

- Anngggsstttt - Turrets.

Aside from all that garbage has anyone come up with a way to work around this whole thing? I've tried but sitting in station now for the 9th time in 2.5 hours of play due to a momentary (not even fatal!) accidental zap makes me think either I'm doing it wrong or it's all just totally wrong.

Yeah.

John Stoutbeard · Dec 30, 2014

Bayaz said:
All of a sudden everyone's red, you've got to hightail it out of there and get to a station to clear your wanted status. About 8 times today.

Yes, I've have this happening quite a lot as well. However, it's fine as it is.
without it you'll become careless - and everything will be on 'easy mode'.

As it stand right now you need to focus not to spray everywhere.
It's excellent. Skills matter. Situational awareness matters.

Personally I prefer it like this.

Geers · Dec 30, 2014

It's not a fine, it's a bounty.

1000c fine per hit solves the problem just fine.

Blast Hardcheese · Dec 30, 2014

It's happened to me once or twice because I was being an idiot with my fixed multi's, what helps is paying attention to your radar and only making shots you know will connect with your enemy. Things like firing a frag cannon at a wanted npc 2km away who is surrounded by friendly npc's, is ill-advised.

graeme.firth · Dec 30, 2014

I avoid most fines/bounties by using the following technique.

1. Aim
2. At the target.
3. Not the Feds.

Check your fire.

Cross · Dec 30, 2014

Well, hopefully the bajillions of threads that keep getting started on this topic will get the devs to do something about the current less-than-ideal system...

Bayaz · Dec 30, 2014

Oo er.

I've aimed, I've maneuvered, I've checked my clock and my timing - like my form - is pretty much perfect.. But that doesn't save me all the time.

Maybe my problem is I should be using high alpha weapons instead of aiming for DPS? What do you guys fit since you're unaffected by this? I want what you're having.

It doesn't help that an Eagle for example can fit almost entirely within the exhaust plume of a larger ship. Or appears to. Ditto with smoke plumes and such. SweetFX maybe. Bleh.

Wots your guns.

P.S. To the poster above me, glad I can be of service. Forum whining, like the market and water, will always find its own level

P.P.S. To be fair, after a while hanging around at a Nav Beacon killing Wanteds everyone ends up being super peeved at you, so you have to bail for a while anyhow - so leaving to undo fines isn't the end of the world but it's still an imposition rather than a choice.

Kitiara · Dec 30, 2014

What works well for me is lining up my shot, checking my target, then firing a burst. Then checking again, then firing again.

What I used to do and didn't work so well was lining up the shot, and just holding down the trigger till it was dead.

I've had friendly fire issues with other players I've been playing with, not just NPC's. IT comes down to the same thing. When I have friends in the instance with me, I'm careful not to shoot them. When there are NPC's around, I'm careful not to shoot them. I really don't see a problem with the current situation.

It does, however, mean that anyone choosing to fight with an anaconda needs really good situational awareness, or a good nearby station they are allied with to dock at since they can't do platforms.

Bayaz · Dec 30, 2014

Surely my 3300 A.D. type spaceship can ED-BPAY a fine through SpaceVisa without having to go to the Space Post Office? Not like any of these fines are being notarized or anything.

Aside from the whole who shot who first thing it'd still be nice if small fines could be taken care of in situ instead of requiring a house call.

Kitiara · Dec 30, 2014

Bayaz said:
Surely my 3300 A.D. type spaceship can ED-BPAY a fine through SpaceVisa without having to go to the Space Post Office? Not like any of these fines are being notarized or anything.

Aside from the whole who shot who first thing it'd still be nice if small fines could be taken care of in situ instead of requiring a house call.

Perhaps the issue is the police being seen to not be taking bribes.

Just like it's not possible to pay a parking attendant in the UK when you're in the process of picking up a fine for parking illegally. There was a time that you could, but it became important that not only were the parking attendants not corrupt, they needed to be seen to be non-corrupt. And so paying on the spot went away.

tomPhoenix · Dec 30, 2014

Here's another thing along the same lines that sucks ... NPCs can crash into you! Literally one just bounced off me and boom wanted 600cr fine. Gotta love that. It bounced off the top of my canopy in my viper. I'm pretty sure I didn't hit the NPC at all with weapons. I was being extra careful.

NPCs just fly straight into your line of fire and sometimes real quick. There's no skill about it truthfully. Yea, you can look on your radar and have "situational awareness" but that's simply not enough. Anyone giving you that line is full of it. Accidents happen. I grind the living crap out of bounty hunting NPCs. Even with gimbaled and turreted weapons. NPCs will fly into you and your line of fire.

If you do any serious bounty hunting, you will - let me repeat - you will eventually get fined. Again, anyone telling you otherwise doesn't often bounty hunt in police space.

Seriously, try taking out an Anaconda with 6 Federation Eagles buzzing around. You're bound to hit the wrong ship. I basically just go up to the Anaconda in my Viper point blank and empty my guns at a full stop. That's basically how it has to work. Basically the odds of hitting a cop when you're less than 1km from your target is pretty small though still possible. Like I said, they bounce off you.

It's part of the grind formula. I take the fine as an excuse to dock and turn in the bounty vouchers. I've yet to get killed by the police for these fines. They're just annoying. It's pretty easy to just leave and dock and pay the fine...It'd be nice to at least be able to pay the fine from space.

RyanBurnsRed · Dec 30, 2014

It's been brought up a million times before. Last I heard, the devs are aware and are looking into how to deal with it.
That being said I was a victim of this a few moments ago when bounty hunting at a resource extraction site. Was shooting at a Cobra when a Fed in a Viper came out of nowhere and flew right in the line of fire...

If anything I think the AI needs to be worked on some more. They have zero situation awareness.

tomPhoenix · Dec 30, 2014

Kitiara said:
What works well for me is lining up my shot, checking my target, then firing a burst. Then checking again, then firing again.

What I used to do and didn't work so well was lining up the shot, and just holding down the trigger till it was dead.

Exactly the strategy I use (unless I'm point blank full stop). It still leaves you with the possibility of hitting the wrong target. Trust me - there is no level of careful that prevents you from fines AND when you do this tip toe thing you aren't making as many credits per hour.

Riepah · Dec 30, 2014

Panzertard said:
Yes, I've have this happening quite a lot as well. However, it's fine as it is.
without it you'll become careless - and everything will be on 'easy mode'.

Difficulty should not come from bad AI you have to babysit, nor from an unrealistic, immersion-breaking, exaggerated reaction of said AI to one single stray shot amidst a huge battle, especially when the AI doesn't hold itself to the same ridiculously exaggerated rules. A fed ship shooting you because you happen to be in its line of fire does not immediately become the priority target for everyone in the vicinity, even when a 40k+ bounty target is nearby.

I'm all for difficult gameplay, but it should come from good AI actually putting up a fight against you. If the difficulty comes from having to be careful not to accidentally shoot your comrades, the game isn't doing it right.

Tim Wheatley · Dec 30, 2014

Cross said:
Well, hopefully the bajillions of threads that keep getting started on this topic will get the devs to do something about the current less-than-ideal system...

I think the system is perfect. If not, why not just nuke the sector and take the whole lot out, eh? Collateral, schmateral.

Check your fire, simple as that.

Michael Scissor · Dec 30, 2014

I don't mind the system other than the being forced through the docking/undockin procedure just to pay a fine.
Atm i'm writing w my mobile, which i can use also to make purchases via online payment and pay bills.
So i would think, i could fly my future spaceship NEAR a station and make a wireless transfer.

Also (off topic)

Could use stn wlan to browse their inventory while being just a couple hundred meters away.

FaolGlas · Dec 30, 2014

The Walking Dead - for topics! Grins.

Bayaz · Dec 30, 2014

FaolGlas said:
The Walking Dead - for topics! Grins.

I'm afraid I don't get the reference..

Ok, so the consensus seems to be that:

If an NPC flies in front of you during battle and takes damage, then empirically it is the players' fault for having a sticky trigger finger and/or poor motor reflex skills. Harsh, but space is a cold capricious mistress. That's cool, I can deal with L2P.

But assuming that's the framework we've got, what about the whole having to dock to pay a trivial fine issue? Nobody likes/dislikes the whole "pay remotely" idea? I think it's brilliant.

Kitiara said:
Perhaps the issue is the police being seen to not be taking bribes.

Just like it's not possible to pay a parking attendant in the UK when you're in the process of picking up a fine for parking illegally. There was a time that you could, but it became important that not only were the parking attendants not corrupt, they needed to be seen to be non-corrupt. And so paying on the spot went away.

Oh, like the UK parking attendant who collected fees over 30 years from people, but as it turns out wasn't employed by anyone and has since fled to Spain with something like ~10 million quid? Council thought he worked for the Zoo; Zoo thought he worked for the council. But that's an aside; I have a rejoinder. I think.

I was given an expiation notice by the Babylon a while ago, and while the police issued me with a receipt and an invoice payable, it was payable to the State Government, not the issuing officers themselves. I could have just turned on my phone, gone to the appropriate webpage and paid it then and there with my credit card within 1 minute of being issued it. Wait, what? I'm getting confused with this double-quoting. Read between the lines and the spirit of the thing not the letter of it etc. etc.

TL;DR: A.D. 3300, spaceships, 8000c interstellar travel, force fields, submillimetre perfectly effective radiation shielding, and I can't BPAY when I get caught doing something naughty.

What? I didn't say anything. Are you my son?

tomPhoenix · Dec 30, 2014

Just let us pay the fines in space. Then the people who don't bounty hunt who think it's perfectly fine can feel like they have good skills and situational awareness and the people who are seriously trying to grind can not have their credits per hour affected by the need to go fly back dock and pay off a fine because some NPC decided to jump in the way or bounce off the back of your ship.

mollymawk · Dec 30, 2014

Since switching to bounty hunting in anarchy systems I haven't had a singe stray shot fine.