The General BugFixing/Playtesting thread for FFED3D+mods

[Zak Gordon]

for original FFED3D + AndyJ Mod (mostly):

Note for new FFED3D users: This may all seem very complex currently. There is no one stop download for everything, but hopefully in future, once all the 'fixing' and improving has been done, we will work out a more simple installation.

All info and remarks in this thread are purely from a 'testing' and 'questioning' perspective. They are not final remarks on quality or a review process of a total project. The final actual quality of FFED3D, Ittiz build and AndyJ mod are all awesome and these are the versions of Elite you have been wanting this last decade or so!

It should also be noted that both Ittiz and AndyJ's mods require and rely on the base FFED3D game, and many of the issues brought up here will be inherited directly from that base, maybe even going back to JJFFE and FFE!

The original thread for info on FFED3D is here:

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1084

And AndyJ has one specifically about his mod release here:

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12734

This thread will mostly be about the last version of FFED3D with the AndyJ mod ontop of that.

It is for helping in playtesting and game balancing Andy's mod to aim to make it the definitive least bugged Mod for the FFED3D version of Elite FFE. It should be kept in mind that people currently run different builds of FFED3D, so various 'errors' and confusion will arise out of that, but as a general 'catch all' thread, most stuff relating to FFED3D, the AndyJ mod and others will fit in fine.

If along the way we can find fixes and suggestions for a general improvement in the game experience of FFED3D (with whatever mod ontop) then probably that is a good thing.

This initial post will be updated all the time with the most useful info.

The reason for picking AndyJ's mod is that currently it is the most stable, with the least amount of graphical issues. Sadly the mod by Ittiz has some pretty huge graphical issues around planets and on surface glitches, so i will see how that progresses and may run a similar thread for that version in the future.

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what you will need to download to join in the process:

Four Part download for base FFED3D game from spacesimcentral. You will need to sign up for an account to be able to download (you are not forced to make a 'paid' account, you can make a free one):

Part1:

http://spacesimcentral.com/ssc/files/file/953-ffed3d-complete-parts7z001/

Part2:

http://spacesimcentral.com/ssc/files/file/952-ffed3d-complete-parts7z002/

Part3:

http://spacesimcentral.com/ssc/files/download/951-ffed3d-complete-parts7z003/

Part4:

http://spacesimcentral.com/ssc/files/download/954-ffed3d-complete-parts7z004/

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I didn't have a great success with most of those, they report damaged files etc once i tried to un-zip them in 7zip. But some seem to get them to work, so give it a go.

These are also available from the original russian website and forum where the amazing Russian modders (DreamZzz in particular) started the project called FFED3D:

Full download in 3 parts:

http://www.elite-games.ru/conference/viewtopic.php?t=54998

I got my working version of FFED3D from this site.

It should be noted that your antivirus may report a virus in those files (iirc the first part?), which has been confirmed as a false positive, but you need to be aware of that issue.

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Pretty essential is the 'Stars & Planets Textures' mod by VampireDuCosmos:

http://spacesimcentral.com/ssc/files/file/984-stars-planets-textures/

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Most essentially we need AndyJ's mod files to finish the process (you need all 3 files from the following link):

http://spacesimcentral.com/ssc/files/file/1036-ffed3daj/

===================================================

Just follow the installation instructions for all those, start with the base FFED3D game, then install the 'Stars&Planets textures' and finally AndyJ's mod over those.

Another option is mentioned just below by Steve. Download Ittiz mod then simply install Andy's over that, although i'm not sure if that will keep all the graphical glitches that are currently in the Ittiz mod version? Check Steves post below for the links

EDIT: I just confirmed, using Ittiz build, then installing the AndyJ mod ontop is fine! I had missed out some of Andy's files you need! I'm not sure if it looks overall better than FFED3D+AndyJ though? You'll have to try them out and see what you prefer

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I will use these terms to distinguish between the different versions:

FFED3D - This is the base game as downloaded from the original russian website source.

FFED3DAJ - This is AndyJ's mod version added ontop of that base game above.

FFED3DIttiz - This is Ittiz mod standalone version of the base game.

FFED3DIttiz+AJ - This is AndyJ's mod version added ontop of Ittiz standalone version.

------------------------------------------

Andy has mentioned memory usage before (in his readme and around the forums), so here are my memory usage stats for the various versions of FFED3D.

Edit: This issue is more the running total of RAM the FFED3DAJ.exe is taking up. Less what is left over in your overall system RAM. 2GB or more seems to be the current norm, which causes issues in 32bit systems. My bigger texture mod removes that issue by letting the game run in less that 1GB.

System: 3GB Ram Windows XP
In windows desktop = 2.4/2.5 GB available system Ram.

FFED3D = 1.8 Gb available system Ram. All ships loaded at start.

FFED3DAJ = 1.8/1.9 Gb available system Ram. Ships selectively loaded in game.

FFED3D Ittiz = 950 Mb available system Ram. All ships loaded at start.

FFED3DIttiz+AJ = 1.8 Gb avialable system Ram. Ships selectively loaded in game.

Both the base FFED3D and the AndyJ mod are very comparable. Ittiz uses the most resources.

===============================================

Bug Report/Current outstanding issues (heading [Major]/[Middle]/[Minor])

[Major - FIXED as of update v1.05] Graphical artifacts on ground and ships. This had been demonstrated using the ground of Bio Domes at Merlin as an example.

update: The glitch is in the original FFED3D (last build) as well. Just not at low altitudes as seen in FFED3DAJ mod. upto 500m looking down and it remains mostly stable when moving your ships view around. In the FFED3DAJ mod it is glitchy pretty much whenever you move your view. AndyJ has recently made big progress here, fix upcoming. FIXED from update v1.05 onwards!

[Major] Not all ships are updated to look like the current Asp/ViperMkI models etc. Inherited issue from FFED3D, won't be fixable without new model modders.

Ships info compiled so far:

1.Ships that have 'Best' Replacement model + Skin:

Viper Defence Craft
Skeet Cruiser
Asp Explorer
Wyvern Explorer
Cobra MkIII
Adder
Interplanetary Shuttle
Lifter
Sidewinder
Harris Fighter
Imperial Explorer
Spar Attack Fighter
Constrictor
Boa Freighter
Saker MkIII Fighter
Mantis Transport
Eagle Long Range Fighter
Eagle MkIII Fighter
Imperial Trader
Imperial Courier
Lanner

2.Ships left that are not quite to the standard of the above:

Hawk Airfighter
Cobra Mk1 (Spacegamer has a new version for the Cobra MkI, which would move it to the first section)
Tiger Trader
Viper Defence MkII (Very close to the original FFE shape and form, so not really in the same aesthetic group as section 1)
Krait Assault Craft
Transporter
Python Freighter
Anaconda Freighter
Gecko
Griffin Carrier
Tiercel Freighter

3.Ships left that have original skins/model:

Lion Transport
Puma Clipper
Lanner II

This might be due to the curved hull sections not taking on any new textures?

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[Major - FIXED as of update v1.03] Disappearance of the pink 'fuel-range' circle in the navigation screen. It is still present in FFED3D and FFED3DIttiz versions, but not in FFED3DAJ. UPDATE: Fix announced for v1.03 update

[Major][Middle] Crash (windows error dialog) on start up. Rare, maybe once out of every ten/dozen start up attempts.

update: Seems to be happening more often since 1.05 update. Maybe 3-4 launches out of 10 now, definitely seems more likely to happen on game launch than previously?

[Middle] Various planet based buildings are blank geometry only, no textures. Some issues can be resolved using my new texture replacers or the original FFE textures (as these are all lower res compared to those in Ittiz build and Nanite2000's replacements etc), but many completely blank/white buildings remain around the game. Probable FFE original game issue, or could be due to too high res texture replacements being used in Ittiz build, or a mixture of both. Not an AndyJ mod issue, just a note for future fixing if possible

[Middle - FIXED as of update v1.07] 'Pop in' and 'Pop out' of the current planet texture when flying too or from a planet. The distant 'blob' representation is very small compared to the minimum textured planet, thus the 'Pop' effect. I'm trying to work out what files might be tweaked to make this less noticeable.Not an AndyJ mod issue, just a note for future fixing if possible. UPDATE: fixed in version 1.07

[Minor - FIXED as of v1.06?] Rapid repeat on mouse click sensitivity when in menu's (like shipyard/stockmarket etc) It is not as 'sensitive' in the other versions; FFE/FFED3D/FFED3DIttiz etc Unsure if specific AndyJ bug or something else? This is an intermittent issue, so downgraded to a minor issue. - FIXED.

[Minor -FIXED see details below] Earth and Mars are the wrong png files, they are reversed (inherited from FFED3D?). tex17.png should be the one that Mars uses, tex18.png should be the one used for Earth. Also Venus should be 'white' (tex22.png should swapped around with tex21.png) Ittiz build corrects this, and I have a fix for this in my mini mod.

- FIXED (use Ittiz build or my ZGtexturesMod.zip or ZGTexture+ModelMod.zip file)Not an AndyJ mod issue, just a note for future fixing if possible

[Minor - FIXED as of v1.07] If NOT using Ittiz build, the distant Sun and Planets 'dots' in the sky are very washed out looking. Also the Suns in general look better in Ittiz build (compare the screen shots, more lense flare effect perhaps? It goes well with AndyJ's atmosphere improvements imho). I have not been able to find the files to correct this in the non Ittiz based builds.

[Minor - FIXED as of update v1.05] New skin models on ships 'pop' into view when first viewing. It is due to memory issues, but maybe a work around can be found to avoid this effect so often? Andy has mentioned using a cache for the models perhaps?

- FIXED: experimental so far, but a tweak in the ffewin.cfg file (modelPreload=99) can avoid this, maybe combined with smaller textures overall this could be set as default in future? UPDATE: Also if used in conjunction with my optimised and re-sized texture and model mod FFED3DAJ.exe now runs in under 1GB of ram.

[Minor - FIXED, see details below] Docking bay doors are messed up (they close then you go through them, at least no damage is taken!). This is inherited from the base FFED3D or base Ittiz files.

Edit: Andy mentioned 234 and 236 in his readme. This still gives issues so a bit of experimenting and you ALSO need to remove 227. The normal FFE docking doors remain and you don't get the clipping/odd behaviour of these new modded not quite working versions.

- FIXED: (so delete/remove folders '227/234/236' in your 'Model\' directory.

[Minor] Coming out of a Hyper space jump i seem to be facing 'backwards'. I will see my entry cloud in front of me and my velocity has me traveling backwards! I don't think this is normal Frontier/FFE behaviour? Not a huge issue, and it might make good sense as you are ready for any assassins on your tail, but it is a 'bug' i think? Not sure where this comes from, FFE/JJFFE(don't recall it in those) or FFED3D etc.

EDIT: could it be related to the landing bug that makes you flip 180 degrees just before touch down?

[Minor] The Super Massive Suns are not showing up in the system screen in game, even with the correct texture present in the /Textures folder. This is an FFED3D bug.


(to be continued)

 

[Sir.Tj]

Good idea.

Stickied.

 

[Steve]

AndyF? AndyJ surely!

There is a danger of over-complicating things for someone who just wants to jump in and try the game.
What I suggest is:-

Ittiz FFED3D Beta 3

then

AndyJ v1.03

installed on top.

I know the Ittiz download is big (~430Mb) but once you got it, you've got pretty much everything (videos included).

 

[Zak Gordon]

Excellent

And first point of order is re the new .cfg file setting for spacedust.

I would like to report that setting it to 10 does indeed make it bigger, so well done Andy.

Still once you are at normal deep space travel speeds you will not see it. BUT it is now visible upto around 21000.0 km/h instead of about 5000.0 km/h. So that experiment is working

So the next question is can you go higher than 10 (cue that spinal tap sketch and going to 11!)? I think at low speeds (like docking) 10 looks just about right as the new default, what about others opinions? Do we want bigger dust to see at higher speeds or is this decent enough?

Edit: thanks Steve! AndyF indeed(i was getting mixed up with the awesome Daggerfall Mod 'AndyFall' or 'AndyF')! Thank god i got the title right and i shall add you suggestion to the first post for another install option

 

[Steve]

If you don't want to download the entire Ittiz package, there is a download available at SSC here which is around 176Mb but doesn't include the videos. So an alternative is to download this package and extract the AndyJ patch into it.

 

[Zak Gordon]

===================================================

First up in this new thread is about the change that seems to have happend to land textures from FFED3D to FFED3DAJ.

The colours are 'worse' in some instances perhaps, and there are some graphical artifacts that are not in the base FFED3D game.

I'll post a sequence of screenshots to better show what i mean. The Title is at the top, the picture below.

FFED3D: Dayglo green Mars (Sol is directly overhead)



FFED3DAJ: Dayglo green Mars (Sol is diretly overhead) - Even more dayglo?



FFED3D: less brightly lite green Mars (Sol is rising)



FFED3DAJ: less brightly lite green Mars (Sol is rising)



FFED3DIttiz: a comparison with Ittiz colours for the two above



FFED3D: Evening on Hope. Things are 'brighter' in general, notice the detail in the texture difference in the distance. Also you can turn around and still see the colour of the ground and mountains behind you, which makes it easier to fly around.



FFED3DAJ: Evening on Hope. Things seem 'darker' in general, turning around from this position and the colours go fully dark, you loose the detail of the landscape in this darkness, which makes flying around harder.



FFED3DAJ: this doesn't happen in FFED3D but does in the AndyJ mod, graphical artifacts. The shot looking down to the ground is something that definitely only happens in the AndyJ mod, i've flown around the same area in FFED3D and these flickering in and out glitches do not happen. Those brown triangles (which i guess are fields of mud and the roads?) really glitch all the time in Andy's mod, but are solid and stable in FFED3D. So i'm not sure what causes this?



FFED3DAJ: The shot of the registration on the generation ship below is a little less clear cut, but that specific type of artifact as seen in the screen shot is just in the AndyJ mod.

Lots of flickering as you move your view, fly past etc. In FFED3D there is still something going on with these Ship ID's but mostly you just don't see them at all, occasionally they 'pop' into existence, but for the most part they don't constantly flicker.

I've also noticed more of this type of flickering on some of the ships skins when viewing them in the shipyard. The 'newest' better looking skins (Asp etc) have no issue, but the older skins (Transporter etc) do have these artifacts on various details.



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Now i'm not sure what changes were made to the graphics in the AndyJ mod, it might just be the way the light from the suns is affected by the new (better) atmospheres perhaps?

But looking at the shots it would seem things are brighter/higher contrast in direct light, but also darker around nighttime? Has the brightness levels of the Suns been reduced at nighttime and increased during the day perhaps?

The atmospheres and sea texture changes in FFED3DAJ are a huge improvement imho, but i'd sure love to get to the bottom of some of the issues i've tried to explain here, the super dayglo-green Mars and various graphical artifacts in particular.

My gut feeling is some kind of combination of these aspects would be best to aim for, the atmospheres and sea's of the AndyF mod mixed with the more 'gentle' colours and less 'glitching' of the landscape from the FFED3D mod perhaps?

I've tried looking around the Textures files but have not been able to really put my finger on what might be the root cause of these differences? So it might be an engine rendering difference or something in the .exe or shaders that has changed?

 

[Zak Gordon]

General Comment:

In the other thread (linked in the op) Andy took some time to answer my initial questions, and in general when i'm bug-testing/feature tweaking etc, i tend to collect a bunch of comments and post them, less for a blow by blow response from the modder/coder/dev, but more to raise an issue that may have been overlooked etc.

My comments are always written as constructive criticism or questions so i can get a better handle on what i can do to help.

So on with the comments

=======================================================

1. Previously Andy responded about a 'fast repeat click' issue i was getting with the mouse, in particular when navigating around the services (Shipyard/Stockmarket etc).

I've checked both FFED3D and Ittiz mod, and they definitely are not as trigger happy on the mouse click response thing. I mean in all versions of the game if you simply click and hold down the mouse button, it WILL repeat, and quite quickly.

What i'm finding in the AndyJ mod is that even that initial first mouse click will run-over into multiple mouse clicks much easier than in the other versions, so what could have caused that? Maybe the game running 'lighter' (less textures loaded in at start etc?) gives more juice to mouse sensitivity?

I've tried adjusting both mouse and keyboard settings in the .cfg file, but that hasn't seemed to bear fruit. Odd one this, not a huge issue, but certainly not something that was in FFED3D, so we should probably see what it is about?

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2. Distant Suns and planets, as seen when in space, are more muted in the AndyJ mod. I can't seem to see a specific texture file that deals with this, but if you compare between FFED3D and Andy's Mod, they are more muted/less colourful, and less 'sun' like (at distance). Up close they are perfect

On this type of subject, but not related to the mod in particular, have people been able to work out how to make these distant suns grow into bigger suns as nicely as possible? IF it is simply a requirement of needing more textures i can probably make some, if i was pointed in the right place to look in the files to start from?

Ok. It is only in Ittiz mod that the colours are a bit richer. Sol is a bright yellow, rather than the muted pale yellow in FFED3D and FFED3DAJ. So what do you change to make that kind of effect? I think i prefer the richer colours in Ittiz mod version. Now just keep in mind that even in that screenshot his atmosphere looks great - most of the time it was glitch-tastic, i had to wait and pause the game to get it looking as he no doubts wants it too all the time!

FFED3D:



FFED3DAJ:



FFED3DIttiz:



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3. When jumping into a system, if you have the show info option selected (ships ID/Planet/Star names visible etc) it sometimes switches 'off', even if it remains active on the cockpit controls. You have to deselect/select it again to get the names back.

This sort of selection/deselection issue can also sometimes effect the music (Continuous music on/off, or switching individual tracks on/off in the playlist etc) selection in the games menu, so it might be a related issue?

Probably related, the Green 'engine on' thrust graphic does not always switch on(green)/off(red: Thrusters only) properly when clicked upon. SO the graphic clue does not work, even if the 'click' IS registered (you can see the 'set:' speed setting when engine is on or not (just 'Act:') to have an idea if on/off, but that is easy to miss in the middle of combat!). A bit tricky that paragraph! So some small clarification.

'set:' shows your engines 'on' set speed. It is displayed (when engines on) just above the 'Act:' setting in the lower left of the HUD. 'Act:' is your Actual speed and IF your engines are 'off' you will only have this readout on the HUD.

Normally you just check the colour of your engine contrails on the control panel. Green is engines on, Red is engines off (but you can still change thrust as seen in the 'Act:' readout). But this readout can sometimes 'break' and not show the correct colour for your actual engine setting.

Hope that is clear :/

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4. Not all ships have fully upgraded skins do they (for example the Asp, Saker MkIII and Viper MkI all have the newest/best skins)?

I believe they have new skins across the board (compared to vanilla FFE), but so far these are the ships i've noticed not having the newest, most professional looking re-skins, and also these are the ships with the most chance of having graphical glitches on their exteriors (engines flicker in/out etc):

A. Sidewinder
B. Gecko
C. Krait
D. Hawk Airfighter
E. Cobra Mk1
F. Transporter
G. Tiger Trader
H. Lion Transport
I. Python
J. Puma Clipper
K. Anaconda

I'll update this list as i find the ships.

So do we know if the people that did the newest skins is still making them, or has that effort stalled? It would be great to finish off the ships imho, at the same kind of standard (asking a lot! I certainly can't do them, but would be willing to learn if given a guide!)

5. The 'fuel-range' pink circle in the Navigation screen has disappeared in the AndyJ mod version!


=================================

And that is all for now. These are just pointers, so don't feel obliged to answer then all Andy! But if you see something handy, cool

 

[Zak Gordon]

AndyF? AndyJ surely!

There is a danger of over-complicating things for someone who just wants to jump in and try the game.
What I suggest is:-

Ittiz FFED3D Beta 3

then

AndyJ v1.02

installed on top.

I know the Ittiz download is big (~430Mb) but once you got it, you've got pretty much everything (videos included).

I've just updated the OP on this (near the bottom).

I did a separate build using this method and as in the edit in the OP, this is not recommended. The graphics are extremely bad, worst of all versions including just the base FFED3D! So it is probably best to stop recommending people do this over the FFED3D+AndyJ mod steps, as they will end up disappointed in how it looks!

 

[Steve]

I've just updated the OP on this (near the bottom).

I did a separate build using this method and as in the edit in the OP, this is not recommended. The graphics are extremely bad, worst of all versions including just the base FFED3D! So it is probably best to stop recommending people do this over the FFED3D+AndyJ mod steps, as they will end up disappointed in how it looks!

Ok, thanks for looking into this. I just want to keep things as straightforward as possible :S

 

[AndyJ]

I think I should just clarify something, in case it isn't realised; The FFED3DAJ and Ittiz builds aren't straight forward continuations or 'mods' of the original FFED3D beta 1.12++. That version is 'lost' and can't be expanded upon; there is no source code available for it. The only source code that is out there is all in a pretty broken state:- planet surfaces don't draw correctly and have missing triangles, z-orders are generally messed up, colours are wrong etc. (etc. etc....)

FFED3DAJ started out taking the most stable build of the source that I could find and it then took several weeks of bug fixing just to get it into a state that was approaching the standard of the v1.12++ beta...

So please do expect differences with my build. Some code may have been put into the beta that never made its way into the revisions that were found. And I might have followed a different path to implement something that was missing or broken, or I've just not gotten around to looking at a particular issue yet. And in some cases FFED3D is drawing things incorrectly anyway, e.g. the white planet rings, rivers & lakes.
I've not referred back to the beta for 3 or 4 months+, I'm just taking it my own way now, bug fixing as I go.

As far as colours go though, the FFED3D beta is certainly wrong.
All draw commands in FFE go through a single 'set material' function which decodes the colour/texture to use for the next shape being processed. Colours are generally held in 12 bits, the first 4 the Red value, next 4 Green and then 4 bits for Blue. So the min value, 0,0,0 is black and the max value for white is 15,15,15. To equate to 8 bit white (255,255,255) the values need to be multiplied by 17. This multiplier value is used to obtain all other RGB values from their 4bit definitions.
FFED3D doesn't do this though, from the available code we know that it multiplies the values by 12 and then adds 63. That's definitely wrong!
An example of it getting colours wrong can be seen in docking bays, e.g. the intro, where the lights in the bay are all white and not coloured red.
I believe the colours in FFED3DAJ are correct, or at least more correct as they directly correlate to the 4bit r,g,b values!

So I'm sure that the planets are meant to be pretty green, perhaps not as bright as those vile socks that I had in the '80s, but a quick jaunt around Steve's website soon turns up some screenshots from JJFFE that are pretty bright!

The terrain textures that are being used also have a direct impact; 64 and 94 for the flat plains and mountain sides. These need to be grey-scale so that they can adopt the colour of the individual terrain segment.
If you are comparing FFED3DAJ against a separate install of FFED3D then that likely has pre-coloured versions of these terrain tiles, as does the Ittiz build. My package of core textures replaces the originals to allow the desired colour to take effect.
Even if you use these with FFED3D though, the surface of 'Merlin' is distinctly grey rather than the blue-ish white that it should be. The Ittiz build renders with the colours straight from the image files, so whilst you'll see dark greens, blues etc, there is little or no variation from one location to another.
The grey scale images also affect how the colours appear brighter/lighter or lack saturation compared to the original (JJ)FFE. It's likely that the original textures were much darker overall than the new, higher resolution replacements which have larger areas of lighter pixels.

Finally, there's the impact of the shaders as well as the sunlight colour to account for. My build is using a noise shader on the low-lying terrain surfaces to smooth them out, making tile joins less obvious and to add low-level detail. Individual objects are also using shaders, something that the original FFED3D did not do. This is not perfected yet, there is a little too much contrast between lit and unlit faces still. Although that's arguably correct when in space, it doesn't look so good when you're landed on a planet. But I'm not a shader writer, nor was Dreamzzz for that matter, so they should be considered 'first attempts'. The water shader is a 2nd attempt I guess as I've tweaked it and created a new texture to smooth it down compared to the original
Hopefully someone more skilled with shaders can rework them and get even better results. But, I'll be looking into this area in future builds to expose any variables that may be required to implement bump mapping and atmosphere shaders.

The sun in the Gateway screen shot probably looks brighter in the FFED3D screenshot because it has transparency and is being drawn over a lighter background. (and as I've said, it also calculates colours incorrectly)

Regarding the graphics glitches - there are two types of models being drawn in FFED3D - the replacement .X format models (with skins) that are more competently handled, but where they're not available then the original FFE primitive shapes have to be drawn... and the constructs of these aren't fully understood and don't always translate well into being drawn as a 3D shape anyway - filled, curved shapes in particular. I recommend a visit to Jongware's site here to gain an understanding of the underlying models if you want to get an idea of what's being intercepted. You can see them all by setting the usePrimitiveModels configuration value to 1 - or, I added a toggle to aid testing - press CTRL+Home in game.
The primitve models are still processed behind the scenes, because even with a replacement spaceship .X model, it is is the drawing of the primitives that outputs the flames from engines, determines where missiles are mounted etc.

The flickering happens with the vector models and where there are multiple triangles/textures being drawn on the same plane - a situation called "Z-Fighting" happens, where the renderer can't decide which item should be drawn on top. I must admit, I'd not noticed that FFED3D had fixed the fields in the bio-domes, it never made any of the source revisions so sadly I have no "quick fix" for that - it will have to be worked through in the longer term. It will be a case of identifying what object owns the field polys, and adding something to alter their z-bias before they're drawn. Same goes for lettering and engine shapes on ships, roads in domes etc.

The lettering on the factory ship is missing entirely in FFED3D, so I'm going to claim a "+" point that at least it's only half broken in FFED3DAJ! On replacement models there generally isn't the issue as the text can be suppressed via a setting each model's tris.ini file.


Bit surprised at comment about installing over ittiz build not looking as good - that includes all the best models and textures. If you've installed FFED3DAJ over the top of it, I can't see why there would be an issue - I use that collection here tbh. What "looks best" is always going to be subjective though I suppose.
This combination is also where you'd notice a larger difference in resource management. I'd recommend that if you want to monitor that, then you fire up the task manager and then, from the performance tab launch the Resource monitor. This will give a clearer picture of how much memory the FFE process needs. Hard Faults/sec is a telling stat too as it'll show how frequently memory has been fully utilised and the swap file is being hit. (which is really bad for performance)

 

[AndyJ]

By the way Steve, on the topic of missing space ships - I don't suppose that you happen to have model 36, the Cobra Mk1?
I noticed the other day in the original thread here that Spacegamer had created one, as well as a second texture, but it doesn't seem to have hit the FFED3D archives??? and the original download link is long dead...

 

[Zak Gordon]

Just a Note on my Ittiz+AndyJ build:

My Ittiz build i downloaded straight from spacesimcentral, after installation it's folder is reported as 'size: 894 MB' and 'size on disk: 898 MB'

With AndyJ's latest mod v1.02 installed dirctly into that (over-wrires some model files etc) that combined build is reported as 'size: 901MB' and 'size on disk: 904MB'

I understand this is a standalone version, so it is not put ontop of the original FFED3D.

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Just to highlight the different graphics i've found in the different builds, and to show why using Ittiz build than installing the AndyJ mod on top of that is a problem, here are some screenshots of the various builds:

FFED3D Start on Hope:



FFED3DIttiz Start on Hope:



FFED3DAJ Start on Hope:



Ittiz+AndyJ Start on Hope:



In that last shot, the build that is just Ittiz+AndyJ, all the atmosphere and sky details are gone! And that is a theme you will see in these other comparative screenshots as well:

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FFED3D Rear View (to see contrast of sky):



FFED3DIttiz Rear View:



FFED3DAJ Rear View:



Ittiz+AndyJ Rear View:



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FFEIttiz Hope Launch (just afer launch from Hope, better view of Sun effect):



FFED3DAJ Hope Launch:



Ittiz+AndyJ Hope Launch:



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FFED3DAJ Sea Sky Sun (to see the change in texture effects for these):



Ittiz+AndyJ Sea Sky Sun:



Finally just to try to show the possible contrast issue i was talking about earlier, a second rear view shot after taking off from Blackelk on Hope. Note the darkness in general. And that is more pronounced in FFED3DAJ than in FFED3D or FFED3DIttiz.

It is very easy to fly into mountains in those light conditions, so maybe it could be just a little lighter (in the shader?), in game it actually seems much less clear than in the screenshot! Try it yourself and see what i mean:

FFED3DAJ Contrast in 'darkness':



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Overall what i want to show here is that installing Ittiz version by itself, then AndyJ's mod over that, it does something to the graphics that is not 'good'. It may be that if people have been using these mods for a longtime they have some non default (as in the versions you get from the current downloads) versions with extra stuff that makes that particular build look ok?

I've got 4 different version of FFED3D installed currently, each in it's seperate place (and i'm currently looking to build a fifth install based on some mod work i'm starting to look into).

1. The base game from the Russian site, I call this 'FFED3D' in this thread.

2. A build of AndyJ, which is that base game above + the AndyJ mod (this i call 'FFED3DAJ' in this thread).

3. Ittiz standalone version (not built ontop of anything else from my files, it contains the base game as is), called 'FFED3DIttiz' in this thread.

4. A build based on that with AndyJ's mod on top I call 'Ittiz+AndyJ' in this thread. This one 'breaks' the graphics as shown in the screenshots above.

 

[Zak Gordon]

I think I should just clarify something, in case it isn't realised; The FFED3DAJ and Ittiz builds aren't straight forward continuations or 'mods' of the original FFED3D beta 1.12++. That version is 'lost' and can't be expanded upon; there is no source code available for it. The only source code that is out there is all in a pretty broken state:- planet surfaces don't draw correctly and have missing triangles, z-orders are generally messed up, colours are wrong etc. (etc. etc....)

FFED3DAJ started out taking the most stable build of the source that I could find and it then took several weeks of bug fixing just to get it into a state that was approaching the standard of the v1.12++ beta...

So please do expect differences with my build. Some code may have been put into the beta that never made its way into the revisions that were found. And I might have followed a different path to implement something that was missing or broken, or I've just not gotten around to looking at a particular issue yet. And in some cases FFED3D is drawing things incorrectly anyway, e.g. the white planet rings, rivers & lakes.
I've not referred back to the beta for 3 or 4 months+, I'm just taking it my own way now, bug fixing as I go.

Completely understand and respect that, yours is the best overall version imho, especially in relation to the stability and bug fixing you have been doing. All my comments are just pointers that you may want to look into, or not, as you see fit for your build going forward.

I will help as much as i can, which is currently just at a formative stage while i get to know the differences between the versions and have time to play and note things down of your build.

As far as colours go though, the FFED3D beta is certainly wrong.
All draw commands in FFE go through a single 'set material' function which decodes the colour/texture to use for the next shape being processed. Colours are generally held in 12 bits, the first 4 the Red value, next 4 Green and then 4 bits for Blue. So the min value, 0,0,0 is black and the max value for white is 15,15,15. To equate to 8 bit white (255,255,255) the values need to be multiplied by 17. This multiplier value is used to obtain all other RGB values from their 4bit definitions.

FFED3D doesn't do this though, from the available code we know that it multiplies the values by 12 and then adds 63. That's definitely wrong!
An example of it getting colours wrong can be seen in docking bays, e.g. the intro, where the lights in the bay are all white and not coloured red.
I believe the colours in FFED3DAJ are correct, or at least more correct as they directly correlate to the 4bit r,g,b values!

So I'm sure that the planets are meant to be pretty green, perhaps not as bright as those vile socks that I had in the '80s, but a quick jaunt around Steve's website soon turns up some screenshots from JJFFE that are pretty bright!

Yes even FFE was pretty 'putrid' in places, so this is certainly a lesser concern and you have atleast tried to remain close to that original vision. I mentioned it just in case it was something you wanted to change or had thought about, or not! A glowing lime green Mars 'might' be what early human terraforming would indeed look like!

The terrain textures that are being used also have a direct impact; 64 and 94 for the flat plains and mountain sides. These need to be grey-scale so that they can adopt the colour of the individual terrain segment.
If you are comparing FFED3DAJ against a separate install of FFED3D then that likely has pre-coloured versions of these terrain tiles, as does the Ittiz build. My package of core textures replaces the originals to allow the desired colour to take effect.

Even if you use these with FFED3D though, the surface of 'Merlin' is distinctly grey rather than the blue-ish white that it should be. The Ittiz build renders with the colours straight from the image files, so whilst you'll see dark greens, blues etc, there is little or no variation from one location to another.
The grey scale images also affect how the colours appear brighter/lighter or lack saturation compared to the original (JJ)FFE. It's likely that the original textures were much darker overall than the new, higher resolution replacements which have larger areas of lighter pixels.

Awesome, that is exactly the info i need to be able to experiment a little, I think you made the right call in keeping those texture files greyscale so the full effects of lighting can have the proper effect.

Finally, there's the impact of the shaders as well as the sunlight colour to account for. My build is using a noise shader on the low-lying terrain surfaces to smooth them out, making tile joins less obvious and to add low-level detail. Individual objects are also using shaders, something that the original FFED3D did not do.

This is not perfected yet, there is a little too much contrast between lit and unlit faces still. Although that's arguably correct when in space, it doesn't look so good when you're landed on a planet. But I'm not a shader writer, nor was Dreamzzz for that matter, so they should be considered 'first attempts'. The water shader is a 2nd attempt I guess as I've tweaked it and created a new texture to smooth it down compared to the original

Hopefully someone more skilled with shaders can rework them and get even better results. But, I'll be looking into this area in future builds to expose any variables that may be required to implement bump mapping and atmosphere shaders.

The sun in the Gateway screen shot probably looks brighter in the FFED3D screenshot because it has transparency and is being drawn over a lighter background. (and as I've said, it also calculates colours incorrectly)

Your water texture/shader combo is really nice, easily the best of the FFED3D versions out there. I'm not sure if i know any shader experts in particular, but i have been invloved in various mod work down the years so will ask around

Regarding the graphics glitches - there are two types of models being drawn in FFED3D - the replacement .X format models (with skins) that are more competently handled, but where they're not available then the original FFE primitive shapes have to be drawn... and the constructs of these aren't fully understood and don't always translate well into being drawn as a 3D shape anyway - filled, curved shapes in particular.

I recommend a visit to Jongware's site here to gain an understanding of the underlying models if you want to get an idea of what's being intercepted. You can see them all by setting the usePrimitiveModels configuration value to 1 - or, I added a toggle to aid testing - press CTRL+Home in game.

The primitve models are still processed behind the scenes, because even with a replacement spaceship .X model, it is is the drawing of the primitives that outputs the flames from engines, determines where missiles are mounted etc.

The flickering happens with the vector models and where there are multiple triangles/textures being drawn on the same plane - a situation called "Z-Fighting" happens, where the renderer can't decide which item should be drawn on top. I must admit, I'd not noticed that FFED3D had fixed the fields in the bio-domes, it never made any of the source revisions so sadly I have no "quick fix" for that - it will have to be worked through in the longer term. It will be a case of identifying what object owns the field polys, and adding something to alter their z-bias before they're drawn. Same goes for lettering and engine shapes on ships, roads in domes etc.

The lettering on the factory ship is missing entirely in FFED3D, so I'm going to claim a "+" point that at least it's only half broken in FFED3DAJ! On replacement models there generally isn't the issue as the text can be suppressed via a setting each model's tris.ini file.

Apart from you trying to fry my brain with the Jongware link (i've had the description of galaxy creation in Frontier bookmarked for many years now, and while fascinating it is several levels above my comprehension!), I'm glad i was able to bring the flickering effect to your attention.

Bit surprised at comment about installing over ittiz build not looking as good - that includes all the best models and textures. If you've installed FFED3DAJ over the top of it, I can't see why there would be an issue - I use that collection here tbh. What "looks best" is always going to be subjective though I suppose.

This combination is also where you'd notice a larger difference in resource management. I'd recommend that if you want to monitor that, then you fire up the task manager and then, from the performance tab launch the Resource monitor. This will give a clearer picture of how much memory the FFE process needs. Hard Faults/sec is a telling stat too as it'll show how frequently memory has been fully utilised and the swap file is being hit. (which is really bad for performance)

My last splurge of screenshots shows the issue more clearly, it definitely seems the least desirable 'build' to use based on that? What i have not done is use your previous v1.01 patch build, so could that be the reason perhaps, something different in v1.02 that causes the issues with the atmosphere etc?

I'll finish by saying "don't panic!". My posts will not always be as gargantuan, there is just a lot of ground to cover in the early (for me) steps on a new mod project

 

[AndyJ]

Apart from you trying to fry my brain with the Jongware link

Damn! rumbled!

Looking at those screenshots it appears that you've got black skies and no water effects - so I'm guessing you're missing the textures?
You need to unpack the core textures (& ideally the example skins/shaders) into the Ittiz build along with the patch zip file. It'll want to overwrite the brown dwarf texture (tex750) with my version, up to you if you replace or not.

[edit] the green Skeet on the landing pad is a bit of a give-away actually now I've noticed it... it'd be red with the new shaders/skins (and yeah, I probably should have named the skins differently so it stayed green)

 

[Zak Gordon]

By the way Steve, on the topic of missing space ships - I don't suppose that you happen to have model 36, the Cobra Mk1?
I noticed the other day in the original thread here that Spacegamer had created one, as well as a second texture, but it doesn't seem to have hit the FFED3D archives??? and the original download link is long dead...

More ships are good

I didn't have Model 302. It is not present in the FFED3D download, it means on the Mars Start (keyboard 2) the hanger right in front of you is a blank (pure white door, no detail beyond shape etc). So i copied it from Ittiz build to put in the base FFED3D file (from which your AndyJ exe runs).

I notice in game quite a lot of blank looking structures, and from the various screenshots i've posted recently you can see the differences between versions on this. It would be great if we could populate all the blank textures with replacement models. How do you go about that? For example what number folder in the Models directory covers what blank texture, how can you find this info out?

Also how do you read the .X files? I've tried running them through notepad++, using ALL language and encoding options, but it still remains garbage? So what do you all use for the modding side of things?

Edit: Aha! that was it your last update v1.02 didn't include those textures, and like a FOOL i didn't add them to my Ittiz+AndyJ build, well spotted. Oh and i think you texture for a Brown Dwarf is better (those bright white stripes in the original texture make it look too much like the Jupiter texture it is based on), and i even sourced a complete new Brown Dwarf texture in that small mini mod of textures i made a few days back.

 

[AndyJ]

they're compressed binary .X format, so notepad is a no-no.
Check out Keith Ditchburn's Toymaker website. The XFileEditor there will let you load them in - it can call MeshConvert too to convert to non-binary (text) .X or .obj files too - but you need the DirectX 9 SDK installed. (and beware of overwriting the original model.)
edit: DirectX9 SDK download link, UK site


It's Keith's code that Dreamzzz has used to load in and display the .X models in the game.

If you understand Russian, then drop by the Elite-Games forums where the models were discussed or take a look at Sparks' tutorials here. If your Russian comprehension is zero like mine, Google translate does a half decent job of it!

 

[Zak Gordon]

And the dedication of hardcore modders is something to behold!

(in other words i probably won't drop by the russian forums, modding this kind of stuff in my native tongue is already hard enough! ).

Thanks for the pointers on the .X files (ha ha!). I think my Windows XP based system is all Direct X9 sdk, so i have a go with the tools and see what happens (crosses fingers).

As an aside i once edited a ships file in FFE, using a hex editor, and that is part of the story 'reward' in that link in my sig So i know what horrors await, and where my limits are (probably graphic stuff and bug reporting!).

Edit: I've updated the bottom of the OP with a sort of Bug status report, obviously Andy will know in detail what bugs he wants to iron out, so this is just a 'supplemental' and i will update it with other peoples reports given in this thread!

Also i seem to remember having Studio Max 5 around a few years back (a graphics artist buddy gave me his copy as it was an old version) I had got it running on my previous PC, so maybe i can dig that out if it will help. Keep in mind i'm a complete 3dsmax newb, and even building boxes seemed tricky back when i tried it out!

 

[Spacegamer]

By the way Steve, on the topic of missing space ships - I don't suppose that you happen to have model 36, the Cobra Mk1?
I noticed the other day in the original thread here that Spacegamer had created one, as well as a second texture, but it doesn't seem to have hit the FFED3D archives??? and the original download link is long dead...

I will have a look for you but the model was never finished ie the landing gear is not working and as I recall the texture was not that good.

Also i seem to remember having Studio Max 5 around a few years back (a graphics artist buddy gave me his copy as it was an old version) I had got it running on my previous PC, so maybe i can dig that out if it will help. Keep in mind i'm a complete 3dsmax newb, and even building boxes seemed tricky back when i tried it out!

Don't think you will be able to animate the landing gear in Max 5 as I had a later version which could not do it.
IIRC Potsmoker66 had got Blender to do it.

 

[Zak Gordon]

Don't think you will be able to animate the landing gear in Max 5 as I had a later version which could not do it.
IIRC Potsmoker66 had got Blender to do it.

Ok, thanks for the info as it saves me trying to get it all setup I can stick to photoshop for now.

 

[AndyJ]

I will have a look for you but the model was never finished ie the landing gear is not working and as I recall the texture was not that good.

Cheers Spacegamer, that'll be great! and ... finished or not it looks miles better than the original