The hyperspace/micojump solution (LONG).

LONG DISTANCE SC
Those binary+ systems with long distance treks to outlying stations are either a game wasting it's resources or a player wasting his/her time. If these were real life distances and speeds (and credits) we wouldn't think twice about traveling 45 minutes with a load of goods out to a distant station, dropping them off and getting paid. But in a game, piloting a ship in a staight line for 45 minutes is just plain boring no matter how realistic that straight line may be. It becomes Elite Train Simulator 2015 without any scenery. Yes "space is big". So what to do?

WHY NOT MICROJUMPS?
It has been proposed by some that in-system microjumps are the answer. I disagree because it's an idea that feels broken in several ways. In many systems this would utterly break the pirate/inderdiction mechanic (which is already hard enough). Mechanically, it seems, FSD's don't really work that way and from my point of view supercruise is already pretty well balanced. If implemented you would need new lore to explain how FSD's distinguish (based on gravity) between a normal hyperspace jump and a microjump. Additionally, microjumps seem like a gimme, and offer no danger and/or risk. I think most importantly, it speaks to the real broken mechanic, hyperspace. So perhaps we should attempt to fix hyperspace instead of fixing/breaking supercruise.

GRAVITY
Gravity, it seems, makes the Frame Shift Drive work. Without it the FSD computer has nothing to lock on to and therefore nowhere to go. Now, there really should be no reason an x,y,z coordinate couldn't be plugged in, a vector and fuel consumption calculated and a destination (any destination) jumped to. But the FSD, though brilliant by design, is a fickle . It's computer is smart enough not to jump us straight into the middle of a gravity source (like star) but isn't smart enough to jump us to an x,y,z coordinate near a gravity source without a gravity lock some x,y,z distance near to it. The game and lore is missing an opportunity here and with the SC issue I think we can introuce a mechanic that fixes both without breaking both.

FSD Jump Mechanics
Just as an FSD hyperspace jump has an upper limit (max range based on max fuel dump) it is reasonable to assume that it also has a lower limit (min range based on min fuel dump). And I would suggest that the lower limit is about 1 Ly. To put it another way, the mechanics of the FSD are such that a minimum portion of fuel (something like .05 to .27 tons depending on the ships mass and installed drive) MUST be dumped in order to engage in a hyperspace jump and that portion happens to equate to about a 1 Ly jump. Any less and the drive simply won't engage. This would therfore be true for all ship masses and all classes and grades of FSD. Which necessarily means that if we're in a a system with stations waaaaaay out there but not greater than 1 LY then we'll need to supercruise out. The SC mechanic is left untouched and intact. Pirates rejoice.

But with that mechanic there is a new alternative to navigation. We will now use NAV Beacons along with a new mechanic... JUMP NAVIGATION.

NAV BEACON'S
NAV Beacons don't currently serve much purpose in ED. They could, however, act as a relay for in-system stations that would allow us to peruse READ ONLY shipyard, outfitting, top bounties, bulletin board missions, and commodities data for all stations in the system. I believe others have suggested this in the past and it is something I agree with. But more importantly (and to the topic), they would also store updated orbital system data obtained by Universal Cartographics. NAV Beacons would therefore become activity hubs for ALL professsions in most systems. But for the player wanting to cut down the SC time in a neighboring system they will become essential.

MODULE
Assuming that we're already in a neighboring system with a NAV Beacon we'll need some way of communicating with it. To get the station relay feeds (shipyard, commodities, etc.) we just need to target the NAV Beacon and scan it (just point our ship towards it). No additional modules are needed. When the scan is completed we just pick a station from the list and the READ ONLY UI for that station pops up. This UI looks identical to the station UI, however no interactions with the data can be made. It is READ ONLY.

The Universal Cartographics orbital data stored in the NAV Beacon is NOT compatible with our FSD computer. But without this data our FSD must use large gravity sources, like stars, in order to make hyperspace jumps. We can however get this data translated. To do so, we'll need to purchase and install a Gravimetric Translation Array (GTA) module from a station. Though large and bulky, this module will translate the orbital data into gravity coefficients our FSD can understand. To make the GTA connection, we'll simply target the NAV beacon, select the GTA fire group and activate it. After a long series of audible BWEEPS we'll recieve a message "GTA: SECURE LINK ESTABLISHED". Note: targeting any other object breaks our connection.

FULL SYSTEM DATA
Now that we're connected to the NAV Beacon with our GTA, we can open our galaxy map and choose the system information for the system we want to jump to. Here there are two possible states. We either have the full system data or we don't. If we don't have the full system data then we'll see a message displayed below the system name: "FULL SYSTEM DATA MISSING". If we want to be able to jump navigate this system then we'll need to acquire it. We can either explore the system and detail scan ALL the bodies (including roid belts and extraction sites) OR we can click the "PURCHASE FULL SYSTEM DATA" button below the message. Note: now that this data is more useful it's also MUCH more expensive.

DATA TRANSLATION
Now that we've acquired the data a new message is displayed below the system name: "THIS SYSTEM IS JUMP NAVIGABLE". Now we'll select the body that we want to jump to (like the one with that far off station .22 LY from the main star) and click the "PLOT DIRECT JUMP" button. The following message is overlayed on the system information screen: "GTA: RECEIVING UPDATED ORBITAL DATA". Once the data has been downloaded from the NAV Beacon we'll receive a another message: "GTA: TRANSLATING ORBITAL DATA". The higher the grade GTA installed, the faster the translation will be: E:24 sec. D: 21 sec. C: 18 sec. B: 15 sec. A: 12 sec. Once the translation has completed, our FSD computer then plots the final vector to within .5 Ls of the selected body. Note: We can close our galaxy map as soon as the translation has begun.

JUMP
Once our FSD has received the translated data and plotted the vector we'll recieve the "ALIGN SHIP TO JUMP VECTOR" message. Now we just align our ship to the jump vector icon and engage our FSD to travel directly to our destination. Assuming the body was within our max Ly jump range, we'll arrive approximately .5 Ls from the selected body directly above it's north/south pole. NOTE: We will always exit hyperspace at one of the poles. Pirates, you know where to look.

And there you have it. We've just executed our first JUMP NAVIGATION sequence. We didn't break lore (or the game). We didn't break SC. We didn't break FSD. We didn't break pirating (actually we enhanced it). We added choice with a tradeoff. We added convenience with a risk. We added danger!

ABSTRACT
  1. Supercruise mechanic is unchanged.
  2. FSD mechanic is changed to allow direct jump navigation (with specific limitations).
  3. User must make a choice (risk) to use the new FSD mechanic (it's module based and requires entry to NAV Beacon instance).
  4. User must accept a tradeoff (module) to use the new FSD Mechanic.
  5. Risk of pirating is maintained. Common destinations are known via high traffic ports or long distance SC destinations, hyperspace entry locations are known (NAV Beacons) and hyperspace exit locations are known (poles).
  6. NAV Beacons become useful (and more dangerous). High-activity player hubs.
  7. Cartographics data becomes more useful (and more expensive).
  8. Exploration balanced. Deep space explorers will not benefit from this mechanic, because of the NAV Beacon requirement. However, now that exploration data is more useful (and more expensive) the payout is accordingly higher.
  9. Lore is maintained.
  10. Gameplay is enhanced.

Praise, bash, discuss.
 
It's a very well-thought out and holistic treatment of the problem, with some very good ideas - giving some real use to the nav beacons is a plus point, though raises the question of why stations themselves can't offer similar read-only broadcasts - perhaps they could too, but only for their own services, keeping your suggestion of beacons collating data for all stations in the system.

Another issue however - underlined by the latest findings from the KST - is why we wouldn't already have more data for systems in the local groups - especially for stars and gas giants, which would be detectable from very remote ground-based telescopes. I think the whole cartographics system shouldn't become relevant until we start getting much further out from the core systems..

That said, purchasing data where necessary from nav beacons would be useful, however the proposed GTA converter seems a little convoluted - how discombobulated could coordinate data really be that a standard nav computer couldn't handle it? However i'm not clear why you suggest this - it's obvously for good reason?

Finally, there's one other key issue here that i would already like to see revised - having stars thrust in my face. I really, really hate this mechanic, and much prefer exiting hyperspace in clear space, away from any major bodies.

To that end, i'd've thought a simpler solution would be to only allow microjumps when a system has more than one star - or perhaps, set a mass limit for it, so that brown dwarfs or even very large gas giants can also be reference frames for hypersapce exit, and then provide the pilot with the choice to microjump if there's a sufficiently-large alternative mass for the FSD to lock onto, elsewhere in the system. I strongly feel though that the exit range should be increased to a few AU clear of anything bigger than a ship.

An even simpler solution would be that the hyperdrive drops us out at equidistant range between the largest system masses - effectively, at major Lagrangians, for any system with more than one major body.
 
It's a very well-thought out and holistic treatment of the problem, with some very good ideas - giving some real use to the nav beacons is a plus point, though raises the question of why stations themselves can't offer similar read-only broadcasts - perhaps they could too, but only for their own services, keeping your suggestion of beacons collating data for all stations in the system.

Another issue however - underlined by the latest findings from the KST - is why we wouldn't already have more data for systems in the local groups - especially for stars and gas giants, which would be detectable from very remote ground-based telescopes. I think the whole cartographics system shouldn't become relevant until we start getting much further out from the core systems..

That said, purchasing data where necessary from nav beacons would be useful, however the proposed GTA converter seems a little convoluted - how discombobulated could coordinate data really be that a standard nav computer couldn't handle it? However i'm not clear why you suggest this - it's obvously for good reason?

Finally, there's one other key issue here that i would already like to see revised - having stars thrust in my face. I really, really hate this mechanic, and much prefer exiting hyperspace in clear space, away from any major bodies.

To that end, i'd've thought a simpler solution would be to only allow microjumps when a system has more than one star - or perhaps, set a mass limit for it, so that brown dwarfs or even very large gas giants can also be reference frames for hypersapce exit, and then provide the pilot with the choice to microjump if there's a sufficiently-large alternative mass for the FSD to lock onto, elsewhere in the system. I strongly feel though that the exit range should be increased to a few AU clear of anything bigger than a ship.

An even simpler solution would be that the hyperdrive drops us out at equidistant range between the largest system masses - effectively, at major Lagrangians, for any system with more than one major body.

Ok what is the KST? (Kepler?)

I know it's a game but, it's a game with esablished lore with some science to drive it. I mean take a basic 20 LY jump. We target the star point our ship there but the star isn't "physically" in that location. We're looking at that star and where it was in x,y,z space 20 years ago. Everything in the galaxy is in motion so it has most certainly moved through space 20 years in... whatever direction. And to complicate matters, all the bodies orbiting that star have moved too. If we just fed our FSD computer an x,y,z because that's where we know the star to be in the sky then who knows where we'd end up. Maybe near the star or maybe we just passed through it, or through the gas giant that's now between us and it or maybe the star blew up 21 years ago and we just don't know it yet (time travel's fun right). So, our FSD computer is therefore doing some sort of calculation to get our ship pointed at the star's ACTUAL position in space, while avoiding hyperspace collisions. It can't use x,y,z because it doesn't know the true x,y,z. Instead it uses the source of gravity closest to our target and "locks on". This ironically pre-supposes that either gravity is FTL or that gravity detection at any distance is instantaneous (again fun).

The FSD works just fine for most systems comfortably planting us near the densist star each and every time. But what happens when we plot for a system with two identical stars? How does the FSD distinguish bewteen them? How can it reliably (and in game terms, always) drop us at the same location from any direction in space. It would either need to be sensitive enough to detect minute differences in gravity (the stars really aren't identical) or it would have to flip a coin. Since we know that it always lands us in the same location each and every time then we also know that it can't be coin tossing. Therefore we are dealing with a VERY sensitive gravity detector that has been purposely bound into using only strong sources.

But what if we could realiably calculate ALL GRAVITY in a system based on ALL BODIES in the system AND their CURRENT (not past) X,Y,Z coordinates. If we could calculate this then we should be able to pick any gravitational object used to calculate all gravity for the system and move towards it regardless of mass. This is exactly what the NAV Beacon does. It takes the data you've retrieved from the system (or purchased), calculates all the gravity for the system based on the current (calculated) x,y,z of all the bodies and hands it off to the GTA for translation. The GTA translates it into a gravity source that the FSD can lock onto. Only now it doesn't have to be the strongest gravitational source, it can be ANY gravitational source.

Regardless, the orbital data your ship receives from the NAV Beacon is up to date and accurate to within .5 LS. And since we have no evidence that anything on board our ships can calculate anything at all, then we need something (the NAV Beacon) to do it. Yes we probably should have that capability and is sure does seem like something the lore has missed, but given the time travel component I can see why it was omitted. So we're basically toting around a static database of planet information that only WE'VE discovered plus a few known systems. If you prefer, since the NAV Beacon is a relay to other stations, we could alternatively assume that the NAV Beacons are making use of all that computing power (somewhere) in doing the oribital calcs for ALL known bodies before handing it off to the GTA. Whetever the case, our FSD's can't use it without translation. We could even let GTA's do the calcualtion, but we'd be removing NAV Beacons from the mechanic, which for me is a requirement.

I agree, stations should transmit their own READ ONLY UI inforamtion too. This only makes sense. Dock if you have real business to attend to, otherwise move on.

We'll have to disagree on the "sun thrust in your face issue". As an explorer (out now some 2100+ LY from SOL) I rely on that for quick fuel scooping from system to system. I'm running with a half-size fuel tank to eek more jump range out of my Asp and sometimes I'm dumping a full 1/3 of my tank per jump. Out here I won't benefit from the new FSD mechanic because there are no NAV Beacons. However with my solution you'd be able to bypass the "sun-face" issue altogether by using a NAV Beacon to jump directly to the body where your port is orbiting.

And regarding microjumps, as I stated we'd have to invent lore to support why only systems with more than one star can use them (or lagrange points) and why we couldn't just jump to the second star from a neighboring system instead. And even if we use the "strong gravity source" as a potential explanation it doesn't address the broken hyperspace mechanic I mention. The current limitation is "strong gravity". The solution proposed replaces "strong gravity" (although it can still happily use it) with ANY gravity but with the limitations proposed.
 
I cannot disagree more strongly. The SC/FSD mechanics is not broken. It is just not working the way you want it to by giving you near instant jumps within a system. If anything I'd vote for better FSD modules that can increase the max speed from the already respectable 2002C thus allowing the distance to be covered even more quickly whilst still avoiding interfering with the whole interdiction mechanics.

That said, I do also agree that it can be a little boring at times but that is part of the challenge. I'd be interested to know where were you going that required a SC that is 45 minutes long to get there??? You'd get up to max speed of 2002C in less time and that is blistering along (Warp 9.6 in Star trek money).
 
I cannot disagree more strongly. The SC/FSD mechanics is not broken. It is just not working the way you want it to by giving you near instant jumps within a system. If anything I'd vote for better FSD modules that can increase the max speed from the already respectable 2002C thus allowing the distance to be covered even more quickly whilst still avoiding interfering with the whole interdiction mechanics.

That said, I do also agree that it can be a little boring at times but that is part of the challenge. I'd be interested to know where were you going that required a SC that is 45 minutes long to get there??? You'd get up to max speed of 2002C in less time and that is blistering along (Warp 9.6 in Star trek money).

Ummm yeah please read (or re-read) it. Do a search for "Hutton Orbital" for posts on flight time (this was the first one that came to mind). Better FSD's are not the answer because you NEVER obtain the theoretical max when traversing body to body. As your frame of reference shifts from one star to the other you begin to slow down. The only time you can obtain the max is to point yourself out away from the system and go.

It does not interfere with the interdiction mechanic. In fact it enhances the pirating (and therefore bounty hunting) mechanic by introducing known hyperspace entry/exits AND making the player choose to use it. Again read it.

If nothing else just read the ABSTRACT.
 
Promouting the best idea for SC travel time issue :)
- add possibility to do sling shots in supercruise
(Slingshot Vector idea is brilliant for gameplay, because fastest way from one star to another star in system would not be a straight line, and will require some custom and experience for most effective use. And also this route can be a handy place for different SC hunters, which will bring more life into objectionable multy-star systems.)

This subject has necro-topics even release date in the end of this forum section! https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76177
 
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Its not a bad idea as a whole. Having some sort of minumum on the Jump distance would alleviate the 'bordom' while keeping other mechanics intact and not violating the spirit of Hyperspace.
 
Finally, there's one other key issue here that i would already like to see revised - having stars thrust in my face. I really, really hate this mechanic, and much prefer exiting hyperspace in clear space, away from any major bodies.
oh nooooo, i loooove getting stars smashed right into my face. That way you really know you have arrived at your destination ;)

Promouting the best idea for SC travel time issue :)
- add possibility to do sling shots in supercruise
(Slingshot Vector idea is brilliant for gameplay, because fastest way from one star to another star in system would not be a straight line, and will require some custom and experience for most effective use. And also this route can be a handy place for different SC hunters, which will bring more life into objectionable multy-star systems.)
Yeah, i also think that would be an elegant way of boosting up sc speed for long distance travel in a system. Though i'd add some graphical help in the hud (flight vector for the sling-shot maneuver).
 
Promouting the best idea for SC travel time issue :)
- add possibility to do sling shots in supercruise
(Slingshot Vector idea is brilliant for gameplay, because fastest way from one star to another star in system would not be a straight line, and will require some custom and experience for most effective use. And also this route can be a handy place for different SC hunters, which will bring more life into objectionable multy-star systems.)

This subject has necro-topics even release date in the end of this forum section! https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76177


Well, the idea is nice but I just don't think the FSD works that way and the fiction/lore that would need to be written in order to rationalize it would seem to be in conflict with existing lore. The FSD will do everything it can to resist this type of maneuver. You'd have to somehow trick it into using the far star's frame of reference even though it's presently in the near star's frame of reference. I don't know how this can be done. And that's if we don't worry about a sub-light "gravity" mechanic boosting an FTL "timewarp" mechanic. If we even look in that direction then I dont' think it buys us anything. We couldn't make use of a gravity slingshot at FTL speeds because it would max you out at C regardless. So, we'd get slowed down. It's the same reason we slow down once we've entered another stars frame of reference. We're already traveling faster than the gravity waves can pull us BUT gravity IS having an effect. We're basically bumping into it. It acts as resistance and we slow down.

Unfortunately, at most, if we're in slow SC (sub-light) it could boost us to somewhere near C. But that's really it.

Again, I feel the issue is more hyperjump related than SC related.
 
oh nooooo, i loooove getting stars smashed right into my face. That way you really know you have arrived at your destination ;)

I'd prefer to arrive to a star orbiting it, not flying towards it. I think this is more logical way to lower your speed.

By the way, am I the only one here not happy about stars looking like they're all same size?
Red giants are much bigger than our sun for example, but at the same time they're colder and our ship must be able to fly much closer. I'd really like to fly above the endless sea of plasma.
 
I'd prefer to arrive to a star orbiting it, not flying towards it. I think this is more logical way to lower your speed.

By the way, am I the only one here not happy about stars looking like they're all same size?
Red giants are much bigger than our sun for example, but at the same time they're colder and our ship must be able to fly much closer. I'd really like to fly above the endless sea of plasma.
Explore a little and you will find stars of all types and sizes.
 
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