The issue of ghost factions

[Sapyx]

I would be against FD deleting a player group completely. Once inserted they are a part of the BGS, and players not formally part of the group may all with and support them, just like any other faction. I would, however, be in favour of de-protecting it. An abandoned PMF should be treated the same as a procedurally-generated PMF.

Going even further, the only thing stopping you from simply favouring a normal minor power for RP reasons except your own pride. Mechanically, there's no difference between PMFs and regular minor factions anyway, literally the only special contact between a player group and their PMF is at the moment of the PMF's creation - beyond that point they are two completely separate and independent entities.

No, there is one other difference: protection from insertion of other PMFs. Many, many players have worked the BGS quietly in the background, supporting proc-genned factions (they never announce their actions on the forums, lest they attract opposition), only to see their work undone by having "their" system unilaterally taken over by a PMF.

I'll be honest... I don't see the problem.

20,000+ populated systems, 834 factions, and a bunch of those factions are in Colonia. How are you struggling to find a system which is not inhabited?

It's not quite that simple. Many player-made factions have expanded into multiple systems; each of those systems is also protected from insertion. Also protected are a couple of hundred or so "lore" systems, which FD are reserving for their own use (superpower capitals, Powerplay capitals, systems with permits, systems with Rares, etc).

On the other side of the equation, yes, there are 20,000 inhabited systems, but many of those are small, dull and uninteresting for a faction. Many have only surface settlements. Only about 8240 systems have populations over 1 million, meaning that of those 20,000 inhabited systems, roughly 11800 are "Unexplored"; recruiting for a faction that is based in an Unexplored system would be very difficult, since nobody knows you're there unless they go to third-party tools; nobody can see you unless they happen to stumble upon your system by chance. Yes, some smaller "just me and my friends" factions might prefer the anonymity of working in the Unexplored regions out on the frontier of the Bubble, but most who actively wish to expand and recruit would not.

So rather than "834 out of 20000", it's more like "5000 out of 10000" that are protected from further player insertion. And that's beginning to severely restrict availability. From my own personal observation just cruising around inhabited space, it is rare that an "interesting-yet-lore-irrelevant" system has no player faction present. And let's not forget, FD are continuously adding more player factions; the problem is only going to get worse.

It's like the 19th century European colonial land-grab. All the best bits get taken first, then the not-so-best bits. Latecomers to the party only get the dregs, the places nobody else really wanted to claim because they were terrible places to try to colonize.

 

[DNA-Decay]

I would be against FD deleting a player group completely.
Once inserted they are a part of the BGS, and players not formally part of the group may all with and support them, just like any other faction.
I would, however, be in favour of de-protecting it.
An abandoned PMF should be treated the same as a procedurally-generated PMF.

Yeah I think this would be a good fix.
Your faction is still there - you made your mark, but now it has to share with others.

Also I love the idea that new players all want the same systems for 'their' group.
It goes counter to the way I view the game, but I won't say it's wrong. When I look for a group to join I want infrastructure and capability.

I don't know what the folks who start a group with a two friends and an account they made for their cat are thinking.
It's like that scene in war of the worlds where the guy talks up his underground city with banks and schools and rebuilding society away from the Martians, and all he's got is a ten foot tunnel that he dug out with a spoon.

 

[Quantis Trap]

In stead of calling them "Ghost Factions" we should call them "Pet Factions". Then "Please adopt this Pet Faction!" signs should go up in front of stations including cute cat and dog pictures.

 

[RamirezKurita]

No, there is one other difference: protection from insertion of other PMFs. Many, many players have worked the BGS quietly in the background, supporting proc-genned factions (they never announce their actions on the forums, lest they attract opposition), only to see their work undone by having "their" system unilaterally taken over by a PMF.

Couple of things on that point. Firstly, it grants protection from another mechanically identical faction being inserted, functionally it is no different than if a 3rd party PMF expanded as normal into the system supported by a player group or even if a group of players decided to support one of the procedural minor factions in the system; simply using a player named minor faction in no way offers protection from other minor factions. Secondly, the very thing that is being complained about (abandoned factions preventing the insertion of new ones) gives you the exact protection that you see as being useful, so why not protect the abandoned faction to ward off new factions being inserted?

 

[Han_Zen]

Ghosts are not real.

I think plasma based life-forms is the politically correct therm. The word Ghost is loaded with negative connotations and should be avoided i civilized conversation.

 

[Factabulous]

Any easy way to find these ghost factions? Might be a fun side-project to remove them from non-home systems...

 

[Moritasgus]

Once in the game pmfs are owned by everyone so there is no need to remove them, they add a certain flavour even if its not always to everyone's tastes.
There is no difference between a pmf and the hundreds of thousands of npc factions that came into existence at the beginning of the game.
If there is an abandoned one in a system you want then boot it out, get it into a war then force its influence down below 5% and and keep it there until retreat.

I'm sorry the OPs favourite systems are not available but thats always going to happen on a first come first serve basis.
Oh and from the very beginning it was allowed for solo commanders to have a pmf put into the game, the rules were changed fairly late last year to say groups should be above a certain size.

 

[Factabulous]

Any easy way to find these ghost factions? Might be a fun side-project to remove them from non-home systems...

never mind. looking at PMFs in more than 2 systems with a max influence below 20% there are only a handful:

Bloodhounds in 3 systems max infl 11.6 %
Iron Phoenix Enterprise in 3 systems max infl 11.7 %
Space Poultry in 4 systems max infl 11.3 %
Titan Industries in 4 systems max infl 19.9 %
Marias Corporation in 4 systems max infl 13.2 %
The Silver Skulls in 4 systems max infl 14.1 %
Ronin of Amarak in 4 systems max infl 1.3 %
Zarni Cartel in 4 systems max infl 10.9 %
The Order of the Wandering Siamese in 4 systems max infl 18.8 %
Lakota Independents in 5 systems max infl 10.9 %
Nuevo Orden de Comandantes Imperiales in 6 systems max infl 3.2 %

Doesn't look like the galaxy is overrun with ghosts

 

[Van R Flyheight]

never mind. looking at PMFs in more than 2 systems with a max influence below 20% there are only a handful:

Bloodhounds in 3 systems max infl 11.6 %
Iron Phoenix Enterprise in 3 systems max infl 11.7 %
Space Poultry in 4 systems max infl 11.3 %
Titan Industries in 4 systems max infl 19.9 %
Marias Corporation in 4 systems max infl 13.2 %
The Silver Skulls in 4 systems max infl 14.1 %
Ronin of Amarak in 4 systems max infl 1.3 %
Zarni Cartel in 4 systems max infl 10.9 %
The Order of the Wandering Siamese in 4 systems max infl 18.8 %
Lakota Independents in 5 systems max infl 10.9 %
Nuevo Orden de Comandantes Imperiales in 6 systems max infl 3.2 %

Doesn't look like the galaxy is overrun with ghosts

I guess my bitterness is that I've never heard of these groups and wouldn't be surprised if they were just one or two people that thought applying for a PMF would be neato. It then becomes frustrating for group of over 100 members to be waiting so long and then potentially be rejected. Also I never meant that all of inhabited space would be occupied by PMFs. More that all the good systems with HazRes, High tech stations and specific powerplay/superpower bubbles would become harder and harder to find.

 

[Goose4291]

Sometimes I wonder about the urge to put a PMF into the game, what the motivation is. If you're trying to make a mark on the galaxy, a PMF is a deliberate vulnerability you've introduced to your operations. An anchor point you have to defend along with whatever else you're doing

Its because of the way FDev originally ran them.

If you didnt have a PMF, they didnt regard you as a recognised player faction, which had perks.

It's why groups like CODE and SDC have them, despite showing no real interest in the BGS

 

[Jmanis]

It's not quite that simple. Many player-made factions have expanded into multiple systems;

Then they aren't really inactive, are they?

each of those systems is also protected from insertion.

Is that actually true? My faction expanded into a system and took control of it, but then the system description changed to a player-faction's description, but the faction itself didn't appear, likely because the system was at the maximum faction occupancy, not because we were in it.

My understanding was that a player-factions home system was the only "protected" one; others were up for grabs, but the allegience and government type controlled whether the faction was entered at 1% control with no stations, or in full control of the system.

Also protected are a couple of hundred or so "lore" systems, which FD are reserving for their own use (superpower capitals, Powerplay capitals, systems with permits, systems with Rares, etc).

That's only a couple hundred... but I notice next:

On the other side of the equation, yes, there are 20,000 inhabited systems, but many of those are small, dull and uninteresting for a faction. Many have only surface settlements. Only about 8240 systems have populations over 1 million, meaning that of those 20,000 inhabited systems, roughly 11800 are "Unexplored"; recruiting for a faction that is based in an Unexplored system would be very difficult, since nobody knows you're there unless they go to third-party tools; nobody can see you unless they happen to stumble upon your system by chance. Yes, some smaller "just me and my friends" factions might prefer the anonymity of working in the Unexplored regions out on the frontier of the Bubble, but most who actively wish to expand and recruit would not.

... beggars can't be choosers? My group's faction occupies a region of space where the "good" systems get at most 10 pilots through on any given day, and some systems within a jump get no visitors, and we were in the first tranche of factions to go in. Many of these systems are unexplored, yet we're in the top 100 of those 834 factions in terms of system ownership/occupancy.

I don't really think cutting out 11,800 systems "because they aren't good systems" is really a fair assessment of the situation.