The legend of the grind.

[Privata]

I have been thinking about ''grind'' for a long time.
I noticed something intresting.

Before we used the term grind , we used a less stupid term ''slow paced'' and thats what elite is. slow pased , but not grindy.

Lets look at the difination : ''hard dull work.'' if you find elite : dangerous to be ''hard dull work'' its safe to asume thats its not the game for you. this has been said many times so why the new thread? because I remembered something and saw new players talk about an older game that was up until now never called a ''grind''

That game is the classic ''X'' games , Be it X2 or X3 it matters not , today many users call it a grind ; I find that scary the games used to be called ''slow paced'' because they are , and slow pased used to be both a compliment and an insult to the game.

Other games for some reason (like COD) use the term grind as if it was a selling point.

So what does a game need to do in order to become a grind.
First off I would argue hard pay walls were you can still play for free but its going to take thousands of hours for no reason.
Or
When the game tells you that the next zone you want to go to is level locked for no reason , so in order to play the content you want you must say do the same thing over and over... in a situation were you have no other option as its the only way to get said content.

Of course I expect you to tell me , its a grind to get the anaconda... its not. the anaconda is massive , expensive and all in all ads no new gameplay !
Because in elite you can do anything in the sidewinder , the second you log-in there are no limitations.

If your only goal is to get the bigest ship I would say your doing it wrong. elite is not a tredmill like modern FPS games were the python and anaconda is the end game... no , those ships are tools ; not just that but tools for the rich and the skillfull as loosing your tools will cost you.

So by that I say elite is slow paced , it used to be slower (better) as even a viper was seen as a status simbol during the early days.

The game will not take your hand , the game is not about you as a hero but rather you and your career thats it.
Do you trade? fight? explore? mine? play the background sim? true those activities have no end in sight and thats the point , its a lifesim.

True there is no hunger meeter or social points in the game but the goal is to give you the closest thing to a life in space but with all the boring bits cut out.

In what other game can you build up a full backstory for you and rise to the top , only to crash your anaconda and loose it all... that is good sandbox gameplay.

Is the game to close to a job? no... because you cant be a space merc in real life , you cant be a space explorer in real life (yet)

Maybe its me however as I spent a lot of my time in X² back the old days doing nothing more than hunting xenon and role playing as a scrap dealer... worst two ways to make cash , terrible in fact... but thats the role I wanted and thus thats what I did... sure I wanted a titan and sometimes I had to do manual trade runs for hours on end but it was worth it as I was making my own adventure.

Elite is the same only , it was built from the ground up to be a sandbox , X started as a linear story game with semi sandbox elements and a bigger focus on trade.

Dont play elite , step into its world and play it at your own pace... make your own objective because the game wont give you one as handholding is bad.

I hope my ramble made some form of sens...

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Because in elite you can do anything in the sidewinder , the second you log-in there are no limitations.

Ha, try to do some exploring with the lousy jumprange of a stock sidey and no fuelscoop!

The silly stuff out of the way I do agree, ED looks very much like a slow paced game which is one of the reasons I love it so much. You see hardly any slow paced games these days anymore.
I mean if somebodey wants lots of credits now and grind the hell out of it then why not, everybody can play how they want. But if one does not like grind he should have seen coming that it won't be fun, so complaining about it afterwards is kinda weird.

kinda miss my old days of not having money, only owning a sidewinder and all that. But not enough for a wipe

 

[Conch]

let me grab my board, ill show you what a real grind is..

 

[StiTch]

This is weird. Not 15 mins ago I was considering a once-in-a-blue-moon rant post about this notion that as soon as you've spent 5 mins doing any given activity to earn something, it's grinding.

Time travel back to the early days of AAs in EverQuest (affectionately named EverGrind to many for a reason) and after a few months of endless repetition I'll let you moan about grinding to me

 

[AJW]

There is no grind in Elite, Only grinders - people who set arbitrary self-imposed goals, engage in repetitive behaviour in order to achieve them, and then complain that it is repetitive. Forget about the goals, and play the game for enjoyment. And if you can't get enjoyment out of it, stop playing.

 

[Privata]

There is no grind in Elite, Only grinders - people who set arbitrary self-imposed goals, engage in repetitive behaviour in order to achieve them, and then complain that it is repetitive. Forget about the goals, and play the game for enjoyment. And if you can't get enjoyment out of it, stop playing.

Goals can be good. just its important not to make the goal the only reason you play (unless thats your jam)

 

[StiTch]

There is no grind in Elite, Only grinders - people who set arbitrary self-imposed goals, engage in repetitive behaviour in order to achieve them, and then complain that it is repetitive. Forget about the goals, and play the game for enjoyment. And if you can't get enjoyment out of it, stop playing.

I'm sorry mate, I can't hear you over the sound of all that truth you're speaking I think the forum filters are opposed to it or something.

 

[RexKraemer]

OP, you got my +1 Rep. Fine analyzed, well said! Same words were drowsing in my brain but did not came out.

 

[Martian Successor]

In the words of a hilariously bearded mad man pre-Captaincy:

 

[RexKraemer]

Another thought: I was always thinking about why I do not feel that grind of which others talk about. Now I know, +1 rep again, if I only could.

 

[lysan]

Not so long a go I was grinding my way though Witcher 3: heart and stone. The last boss was indeed a grind, spend a long time to get that boss defeated. Was so bored of it that I was even considering cheating But managed in the end and was pretty darn happy about it.

So it's not just ED, its pretty much everywhere you need to do something repetitive to advance.

 

[RexKraemer]

Not so long a go I was grinding my way though Witcher 3: heart and stone. The last boss was indeed a grind, spend a long time to get that boss defeated. Was so bored of it that I was even considering cheating But managed in the end and was pretty darn happy about it.

So it's not just ED, its pretty much everywhere you need to do something repetitive to advance.

E: D is even less grindy as your example because you do not need to advance. You can always just enjoy and/or relax.

 

[boringnick]

I have been thinking about ''grind'' for a long time.
I noticed something intresting.

Before we used the term grind , we used a less stupid term ''slow paced'' and thats what elite is. slow pased , but not grindy.

No, it is mega grindy.

I recently fired up FFE. In the first hour I made a ton of cash with the Sohalia run already. Player progression was much faster in the older games. There was no need to bind the players unnecessarily to the game after the first sale, because there were no passes to sell. ED doesn't really has "more content" than FFE. The longer playtime is almost entirely due the far more massive grind.

In my opinion, the progress should be as fast as in FFE. I mean why not? Probably more people would leave the game after getting the biggest ship, but at least they would leave in a more happy mood. Now there's a lot more frustration.

That game is the classic ''X'' games , Be it X2 or X3 it matters not , today many users call it a grind ; I find that scary the games used to be called ''slow paced'' because they are , and slow pased used to be both a compliment and an insult to the game.

The X games were grindy until a certain threshold: Getting a factory or an automated trader. They elimated most of the "trade grind" and elevated the game to an entirely different playing field. The good thing was that you could still do the "trade grind" if you wanted to.

As we all know, the same "elevation" mechanic is out of the question in ED and half the forum would freak out to the moon and back again if anything remotely like this would be introduced.

 

[TiberiusKirk]

It is all very well saying, don't grind, don't set targets.

But that is an almost nihilistic approach - close to, 'don't bother playing the game.'

So maybe I should just get out my vacuum cleaner and do the carpet around my computer instead?

My arguments might sound a bit iconoclastic, but do you understand what I am saying?

Arguing 'do nothing' folds upon itself and ultimately becomes self-defeating.

It is no wonder, that with this kind of logic, people like me refer to players wearing slippers and kicking labradors.

 

[Cosmo]

Dont play elite , step into its world and play it at your own pace... make your own objective because the game wont give you one as handholding is bad.

I hope my ramble made some form of sens...

My objective is to have a proper chatroom with friends, deep social interaction, a guild that I can create and manage, space territory to claim and control, outposts to build and manage. That's not in the game yet.

So when you say make your own objectives.... it's currently limited and not possible until Frontier adds said content.

 

[Boomer Kay]

... close to, don't bother playing the game.

Closer to "start playing the game, stop working it"
415 hours now, Corvette done (rank+enough cash to get a tradevette) .. other stuff done .. still no grind felt.

 

[boringnick]

It is all very well saying, don't grind, don't set targets. It is an almost nihilistic approach - close to, don't bother playing the game.

So maybe I should just get out my vacuum cleaner and do the carpet around my computer instead?

These arguments might sound a bit iconoclastic, but do you understand what I am saying? Arguing 'do nothing' folds upon itself and ultimately becomes self-defeating.

Yeah, it's basically the good old "imagine the sand" soundbite.

You know, I got it recently what the true problem of Elite Dangerous is: Artificial length! It should have been a nostalgic offline-only experience with shinier graphics from the getgo and NOTHING more. And communicated as such. With a player progression as fast as in the old games. That way, everyone would have "played it through" within a month, be satisfied and there would be no expectations for much more.

At the end of the day, it is already pretty much that, just with a ton of grind spoiling the "satisfied" part.

But no, they had to add the online stuff to it and lure in players with the MMO advertising, add powerplay and so on. All this stuff on-top of a base-game, that is still essentially just Frontier from 20 years ago. Conflict pre-programmed.

 

[Privata]

No, it is mega grindy.

I recently fired up FFE. In the first hour I made a ton of cash with the Sohalia run already. Player progression was much faster in the older games. There was no need to bind the players unnecessarily to the game after the first sale, because there were no passes to sell. ED doesn't really has "more content" than FFE. The longer playtime is almost entirely due the far more massive grind.

In my opinion, the progress should be as fast as in FFE. I mean why not? Probably more people would leave the game after getting the biggest ship, but at least they would leave in a more happy mood. Now there's a lot more frustration.



The X games were grindy until a certain threshold: Getting a factory or an automated trader. They elimated most of the "trade grind" and elevated the game to an entirely different playing field. The good thing was that you could still do the "trade grind" if you wanted to.

As we all know, the same "elevation" mechanic is out of the question in ED and half the forum would freak out to the moon and back again if anything remotely like this would be introduced.

My point is X was not a grind , neither is elite. if you see it as a grind your doing it wrong

 

[DefiledDragon]

It's the repetition that kills it for me. It makes it feel grindy because you're doing the same thing over and over with no variation. Bounty hunting is the same thing every time. Doesn't matter what ship you fight, the fight is the same. Doesn't matter what ship you fly, the fight is the same. Flying an Eagle? It's all knife edge, close in dogfighting. Flying an Anaconda? It's all knife edge, close in dogfighting. It's the same with trading, exploring, mining. The only variations in the gameplay are the view from your cockpit, the number of hardpoints/module slots and the tonnage of your cargo hold.

In pretty much all video games the player repeats the same actions over and over. The trick is not to make it feel like that. In Witcher for example, or Mass Effect, you're doing the same thing over and over. Pick up quest, go kill stuff, turn it in, upgrade gear. The reason those games are so engaging is that it doesn't feel like that. There's a feeling of steady but constant progression. There's a feeling of agency and engagement. Running missions (quests) in ED feels like, who are you? Why am I doing this? Why should I care? There's no engagement, no agency, and outside of the cockpit there's zero immersion.

 

[Privata]

Yeah, it's basically the good old "imagine the sand" soundbite.

You know, I got it recently what the true problem of Elite Dangerous is: Artificial length! It should have been a nostalgic offline-only experience with shinier graphics from the getgo and NOTHING more. And communicated as such. With a player progression as fast as in the old games. That way, everyone would have "played it through" within a month, be satisfied and there would be no expectations for much more.

At the end of the day, it is already pretty much that, just with a ton of grind.

But no, they had to add the online stuff to it and lure in players with the MMO advertising, add powerplay and so on. All this stuff on-top of a base-game, that is still essentially just Frontier from 20 years ago. Conflict pre-programmed.

Its a lifesim it has no ''endgame'' and thats why its so awesome.
In elite 1 you could not join wars , flip systems or explore amazing nebula.