The NPC Just Got Smarter

[purf]

When "fighting" a Novice Hauler (Adder?) yesterday I had the distinct sensation of this pilot
being good (read: interesting) even when he's rubbish. So whatever is going on, I like it!

 

[BarFly]

Hello,

Don't worry, AI skills are based on their rank, so only Elite pilots will have everything switched on. Example: Harmless AI ships don't do any PIP management.
Just want to plug a few gaping holes in the AI combat tactics.

And please make the cops good enough to be a challenge for human pirates.
Live should also be dangerous for them , not only for merchants.

Ciao BarFly

 

[Greeba]

I'm loving the feedback in this thread. I need to do some more combat; from other threads it seems my current path is a valid one, namely trading a bit more in my Asp then kitting it with guns ready to turn on people the way I did in my Cobra

 

[Riedquat]

I havent played Elite for ages, but logged in for about 20 mins the other night to see what 1.2 was like.

I got myself interdicted by a lone sidewinder, I think he was novice.

Although it wasnt the hardest of fights, it felt a lot more like the original elite, my opponent was twisting and turning all over the place.

It seemed like a big improvement, previously I didnt feel any ships were a challenge.

Are these guys still interdicting without shields though?, because I always thought that was wrong.

 

[wstephenson]

Sarah, what system controls the distribution of NPC ranks in situations such as supercruise or combat zones or RESs? Elite NPCs should be incredibly good but also be rare.

 

[Sayne]

Don't worry, AI skills are based on their rank, so only Elite pilots will have everything switched on. Example: Harmless AI ships don't do any PIP management.
Just want to plug a few gaping holes in the AI combat tactics.

Thank you for the reply. My biggest gripe about the Assassination missions isn't so much that the Anacondas are ridiculous (they'll be doable with a wing, and I assume that's the intention with those missions) it's that the failure conditions are so harsh. You lose your ship, have to pay your rebuy cost, you are unable to try again because it's an auto-fail on death, and then you take a huge hit to your rep with the mission-giver's faction... all this for less than a 200k payout. Those risks plus the mind-numbing USS hunt to find them, to me, makes them not worth doing. Have a little variety (assassinate Clippers or an ace Cobra or Asp for a smaller payout) and increase the payout for the 'Condas and maybe reduce the rep hit on failure and they'll be worth it.

I know that's a mission design thing and not up your alley, but I just wanted to clarify where I was coming from about the Anacondas.

Thanks

 

[Bojamijams]

Don't worry, AI skills are based on their rank, so only Elite pilots will have everything switched on. Example: Harmless AI ships don't do any PIP management.
Just want to plug a few gaping holes in the AI combat tactics.

That doesn't really address his nor mine concern. Though you made Elite's harder, the problem is that most assassination missions ARE Elite anacondas. And they're just not worth doing money wise. The risk is too great for the reward.

There are no Harmless Anaconda assassination missions. In fact, I've NEVER encountered an assassination mission, in the hundreds of assassination missions I did, that WASN'T an Anaconda. Never a group of Vipers/Cobras. Never a Clipper of Dropship (though I hear about the dropship, but they seem like a unicorn), Always one guy, in an Anaconda, Elite rank more often than not.

This is probably outside your scope of work (Ie. reward for missions, types of missions, types of Anacondas found in those missions) but please make sure there is communication between you and whoever is the designer of the thing I mentioned, because as it is, you are making it harder without raising the rewards, and bounty hunting was already the second least profitable way, now with even further distance ahead in the 'most risk' department.

Risk should equal reward and that is not the case and is getting further and further away into the red.

 

[Cmdr Pli55ken]

Didn't the NPCs fly with AI off since launch?

Yes. At leats I remember my first attempt at an anaconda assasination mission (in late december), where the 'conda pulled some insane maneouvers...and creamed me in short order. So I think they always have been using FA off.

 

[sgurr]

<snip>
I fear you've already approached the "punishing" with the Assassination missions, since the only targets are ridiculously maneuverable and intelligent Anacondas, which puts them out of reach for all but the very best pilots, or those with very expensive ships.
<snip>

That doesn't really address his nor mine concern. Though you made Elite's harder, the problem is that most assassination missions ARE Elite anacondas. And they're just not worth doing money wise. The risk is too great for the reward.

There are no Harmless Anaconda assassination missions. In fact, I've NEVER encountered an assassination mission, in the hundreds of assassination missions I did, that WASN'T an Anaconda. <snip>

I'm no great pilot but managed to complete 2 assassination missions with Elite Anaconda's this morning in a Cobra and the risk was worth the reward. Cost about 30k in ammo/scb vs 180k reward for each.

Whilst I agree that the main issue with assassination missions is the need for a variety of targets, (and that's not Sarah Jane's area,) in Beta 1.2 the mechanics (particularly shield cells) allow Cobra's to challenge even the Elite Anaconda's by loading up multiple SCB's and only having one module active at a time to allow for the power requirements and switching between them as ammo is used.

Bear in mind that you need weapons that punch above their class weight like railguns, cannons and plasma accelerators, as well as targeting subsystems. Gimballed versions of cannons are great for that. (In case you don't know normal weapons will get a damage penalty against hull if they're targeting a larger vessel than their class.)

ps. and with a Cobra you can always run rather than die and come back later for round 2

pps. and thanks for all the work you're doing Sarah Jane

 

[Yabba Addict]

Sarah, you need to looks at the Clipper's AI, they always fit fixed weapons and cannot hit a thing. I've sat in front of one several times just firing away while he flies at me missing every shot.

 

[shadragon]

It's on my to-do list, part of the avoiding line-of-fire system.
I'm planning on fixing a whole load of weaknesses in the combat AI.

Hey Sarah,

I'm planning on heading out to explore this weekend in an unarmed Asp. Would be great if you can hold off on these changes (turning NPC's into mindless efficient killers) until I clear 500LY from the nearest station!

I'm not promising chocolate in return for the delay, but I'm not not promising chocolate if you get my drift... (wink wink)

 

[rudidev08]

Loving the feedback here! AI difficulty ranging from harmless to elite is fine, it's just that I keep only getting assassination missions that are elite anacondas. And I'm ok combat pilot, not stellar. But that as mentioned is mission gen department, not Sarah.

P. S. Awesome job with AI Sarah! It's fascinating to follow the improvements as both space-pilot-player and a developer.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Hey Sarah,

I'm planning on heading out to explore this weekend in an unarmed Asp. Would be great if you can hold off on these changes (turning NPC's into mindless efficient killers) until I clear 500LY from the nearest station!

I'm not promising chocolate in return for the delay, but I'm not not promising chocolate if you get my drift... (wink wink)

Ah, but also new beta reduces number of pirate interdictions in unexplored space. So, I think explorers would benefit more from the update

 

[AluminumAlloy]

After I heard about the AI's being more smarter and advanced in combat, you should have seen what happened when I encountered an 'Elite' ranked Anaconda sitting at a USS plotting to destroy it's next victim.

 

[Tryst]

Just don't make them too smart, please. It won't be fun if there are enemies out there that have a 100% chance of always killing you.

My sentiments exactly. I would actually prefer to have some chance of winning, even in my T6, rather than have to run from everything.

If the first three tiers of NPC pilots were not as smart, at least we'd have some feeling of accomplishment after shooting down another ship in our flying house bricks. I don't mind having to run from anything better, I'd expect them to be smarter.

 

[digitalscream]

In the 1.2 beta, I've noticed an awful lot of ships flying with FA off. It could be because it's the first time I've tried using fixed projectile weapons so it's a lot more noticeable, but I've had pretty much every kind of ship drifting around me. The lower-ranked ones don't seem to be able to do the more insane stuff, like instantly switching to 4 pips on the engines and back again so they can keep hammering me while pulling off the craziest spins in ships that normally couldn't, but they're still flying at a level I can't quite match yet.

I just compensate with big-ass guns.

Ah, but also new beta reduces number of pirate interdictions in unexplored space. So, I think explorers would benefit more from the update

Which is fine and dandy, until they get back to populated space and their hull gets so peppered that they're sobbing into their desk

 

[Jockey79]

And you don't learn if you die to often.
Because you quit the game.

Define too often.

Once an hour?
Once a game session?
Once a week?
Once a year?

If you're in game and not getting better at it and constantly getting killed, should you not ask yourself why and enlist some help?
And on that note, I do recall the word "dangerous" being used in connection with Elite...... now where did I see that ???

(Also nice to know the ranks will actually do something, so far I've not even bothered looking at NPC ranks, as they've all been easy)

 

[BarFly]

Hello,

Define too often.
Once an hour?
Once a game session?
Once a week?
Once a year?

Imho it is a pretty rhetorical question but nevertheless worth an answer
You can't break it down to just one simply answer like you suggested (which was the rhetorical part)
But basicly your question is correct and here comes balancing, self responsibility, skill level etc. Imho there are different things to count in.

Let's go back to your question: 'What is too often' (the part which is really worth to be discussed)
It depends on - for someone like me who has a lot of experience with space sims including Jumpgate 'til now it was manageable to escape the interdictions. mostly pretty easy but once it has been pretty tough i didn't get away unharmed. But i have to say, it happened while i was scooping and i did not watch my radar, so it got me almost nacked and most of the damage came through overheating.
The Cobra sticked really tenaciously at my six. And it was hard work to manage boosting, FA, setting a new target to jump out, not to be an easy straight running target....
Thanks to the Point Defence i could concentrate on this and could almost ignore the rockets.
I'm not good at fighting but the experience with other mentioned games helped a lot.
What did i learn about it, besides accepting the interdiction to avoid damage?
a. Watch your Radar
b. If there is a rectangle get out of the heat immitiatly, you can go back to fuel up later
c. prepare to run
d. keep the fueling as short as possible - take your time and set up for 'economical jumps'


What are the other factors?
a. what ship i'm in and what is it's outfitting?
All my ships have shields and i'm not going to favour cargo above shields. And i assemle at least point defence - like you mentioned it is a kind of dangerous.
Here you are (if i may guess your thoughts ) completely correct - any one has a responsibility for himself. See above!

And now we got to the AI which is given (all i can do about this - find workarounds) and which is the thread basically about.
How good is the AI and in what kind of ship is the AI.
Until now i can't complain, i always managed to run and ...... see above.
But if you make it harder you won't get to the point where you can learn, you just got shot to pieces without much a chance.
You mentioned

..... enlist some help

Ok <imho> thats correct, but there are lots of players, which think it is embarassing and fear to get nothing but scorn and derision (is this correct for Hohn und Spott).
And Elite as long term project can't afford to loose to many players it needs also the part time players which start the game pretty seldom but still are multiplicators for the game.
If they tell others: i'm not often starting the game, but i have fun/can relax/whatever it is much better than they delte the game out of frustration because of the the hard AI, which does not let enjoy them the game
This is what i'm talking about.
Like in most of the games also Elite has to be a <imho> soft learning curve.
Till the above explained i never had a fight in the game, yes i had escaped a couple of interdictions but always just Sidewinders, Eagles, and all of a sudden there is this Cobra which was far above the levels of the other ships. Somebody without the experience i have, i'm not quite shure if he/she would have escaped.
But the AI can't know about my experience!
And right here the Developers have to balance the game pretty careful.

If you're in game and not getting better at it and constantly getting killed, should you not ask yourself why and enlist some help?

Hopefully you got an answer you can get along (at least partially)

And on that note, I do recall the word "dangerous" being used in connection with Elite...... now where did I see that ???

<Imho> i also replied to this.

(Also nice to know the ranks will actually do something, so far I've not even bothered looking at NPC ranks, as they've all been easy)

Sorry but this just your point of view. And sorry to say this - some kind of arrogance.
If it is easy for you, you can't think, that it is easy for others.
And if this game is designed just for hardcore players it is a game without much future.

Ciao BarFly
ps.