The Path of the Game...

[ubermick]

Discussed this briefly with Adept in the "Will a Sidewinder have Teeth" thread, and had a few more questions on this - but didn't want to hijack that thread.

Curious as to how people think the final game will end up as. My concern is credits - I'm hoping that we'll have to earn them the old fashioned way, as opposed to FD doing what several other game companies have done, which is allowing players to "buy" credits via micropurchases (thereby allowing people to simply pick up as many credits as they want, so on day one they could conceivably fly off in an Anaconda kitted out to the gills and a full cargo hold). It's a shortcut that to me goes against what Elite (and Frontier) stands for. I can see FD charging for DLC down the road - mission packs, "special edition" ships (I dunno… a Cobra in bright pink, or something - but not functionally better than a standard ship), or flashy bits that you can customize your ship with (cosmetic, rather than functional) like different coloured lasers, paint jobs, or decals - but even those I'm (personally) leery of.

Speaking of mission packs - will the game be completely open ended like the original(s), or will it be "beatable" like many of the current sandbox games? (Grand Theft Auto comes to mind as a game with a progressive story that you can take your time playing through, but does have a "hard end" and then is a bit pointless when you complete the last mission)

 

[Stoo]

Pretty sure the idea of using real money to buy in game credits was shot out of the water in the DDF very early on.

EDIT (to answer your other question) - The game will be open ended, free to wander and do what you want. There will be "missions" throughout.

 

[jabokai]

Pretty sure the idea of using real money to buy in game credits was shot out of the water in the DDF very early on.

Not really. Many don't like the idea but they've never asked the DDF specifically about C4C. What they have talked about are "vouchers" (look in the DDA) and cosmetics.

And they haven't got back to us on them.

C4C was mentioned as being a probability right back at the Kickstarter and we still don't know if that's going to happen or not either.

 

[ubermick]

EDIT (to answer your other question) - The game will be open ended, free to wander and do what you want. There will be "missions" throughout.

But do we know if there there'll be an infinite number of missions (randomly generated by the game, ala Frontier, where there were always assassinations, courier, and passenger missions available via the bulletin boards on stations and in spaceports) or will there be a set number that you play through to get to a final endpoint (story development)?

I can see the case for both, just wondering if one's been decided on, or what others would prefer to see.

Not really. Many don't like the idea but they've never asked the DDF specifically about C4C. What they have talked about are "vouchers" (look in the DDA) and cosmetics.

And they haven't got back to us on them.

C4C was mentioned as being a probability right back at the Kickstarter and we still don't know if that's going to happen or not either.

I certainly hope not. While most of us are holdouts from the old days, and as such are working adults with a bit of disposable income, that doesn't apply to everyone. And as mentioned in the OP, think it would be massively unfair for people to gain progress just because they're willing or able to open up their wallets. To me, even paying for cosmetics is a slippery slope in a game where people are already paying a premium.

I could see a "season pass" that people who want to play online/multiplayer might have to pick up to cover the cost of maintaining servers and such (going rate for that seems to be $19.99 over here in Yankeeland) but really don't like the idea of repeatedly being milked for cash after already paying for the game as well as all the kit to run it on.

 

[Shepard]

About the "beating" the game. I think it depends on what you consider as a finalizing event in the game. If buying anaconda means for you that you have beaten the game then you'll have that feeling. It depends on what goals we have. Some people will have a goal to explore as much as humanly possible and as far as their ship will take them in the next 1-2 years and whatever comes along will only increase the overall experience. For those people ED will never have such "closure" as when the game is beaten.

Other people consider that game is beaten when story line is ended and ignore everything else in game. Yet another group of people consider an accomplishment if they have been able to sit in first 3 or 10 positions on leaderboard of PvP.

ED IMHO is more about trading and exploring than anything else. That what original elites where always about. Whatever comes along comes along and it's fine.

I personally want to see something more in ED than just static accomplishments. I want to see story arches expanding into the unknown systems of the galaxy, I want to see star systems living their own life and me only being a part of that huge world where so many things going on. I am honestly tired of that "heroism" feature in at me where they make every player a center of the universe. We hold different places in real life. I believe it has to be similar in games to make them truly immersive. Except in games you have a lot more ways of progression and a lot more opportunities to pursue.

Either you escalate your life to something extraordinary or simply be content living as a regular trader is up to you as a player. But developers need to provide opportunities and gameplay for both.

 

[nicomak]

There's no end mission, there's no "story" progression, no campaign, it's only you and what you can achieve in this evolving galaxy which players will influence through their actions, whithin or without the context of a mission. If all players start attacking traders going to Sol, then it will have consequences on Sol, maybe some products price will go high, maybe the federation will send more cruisers to protect their trade routes, etc... you dont need the pretext of a mission for that.
doing anything within a mission or not wont get you closer to any "end of the game". It only "updates" your current status(reputation, money etc...), and the state of the galaxy as well to some small degree, depending what you did.

 

[-o-]

Buying credits is just self-defeating, and never made sense to me.

What is the point of paying to enjoy a game, when you pay an additional amount to come closer to an ending which does not exist? All you are doing is moving closer to uninstalling ED as you have hyperdrived passed most of the content, only to end up in some witch space which looks alot like SC.

Lets go even beyond paying for credits as an example...

If FD were giving out 10 million credits for free, so that you could purchase any item in the game ... would you accept it?

I would hope many would not.

 

[ubermick]

Feel exactly the same way, o mate. But there are a few, I would imagine, who would take the path of least resistance. Many of us old hands grew up earning what we get, but at risk of sounding like a grumpy oul' curmudgeon, lot of kids these days want their cake, and they want it now.

If FD were giving out 10 million credits for free, so that you could purchase any item in the game ... would you accept it?

I would hope many would not.

Interesting scenario there. Like I said though, I would imagine there are one or two out there who'd take it. The reality (at least in Frontier) was that it was just a case of biting the bullet for a few hours at the start running computers from Birminghamworld to Sol, and dragging luxury goods back the other way. Once a viable trade route is found, then earning credits to get moving really wasn't an issue. A couple of hours of that had me in a nicely kitted out Cobra MkIII, and it was earned rather than just bought on a whim. Also the knowledge that your bank balance was earned rather than topped up meant you were careful with your money, you had to budget, etc.

Regarding "beating" the game, then I'm delighted to hear that. I remember in one of the dev diaries where David was talking about how certain actions have knockon effects in the game (famine on a planet causes the price of certain goods to skyrocket, and also could cause neighbouring systems to invade if the government became destabilized) so on reflection, such a dynamic environment would make a set storyline really difficult. (Agree completely with Shepard's view of what the final game should be all about)

And actually, that sort of fluidity in terms of political problems likely means that the days of "recognized" trade routes like the ones we had in Frontier are numbered?

 

[Shepard]

Actually a lot of people would accept. Even though that would completely destroy the game interest for them. Big question is, why?

Here is the thing. If game is focused on something specific and you get a lot of that specific - you automatically lose interest because there is nothing else left to do.

Now big question is - IS ED focused on acquiring credits? Yes and no. Without credits you can't get better ships, you can't equip better modules and weaponry and you can pretty much limited in what you can do or how far you can explore.

Working to make money is boring. What would you do if you've had a million dollars in real life all of a sudden? First thing - you'd probably quit your current job (99% of people would). Then you would buy all kind of worthless stuff because you couldn't do it before. Then you'd go explore the world because you didn't have money and time to do it before on that level.

In games it's different. You don't even get a million dollars unless you work like slave for months flying from asteroid belt to station and back to asteroid belt - rough example. The money making mechanics in game in most cases are every aboriginal and far from fun. There wasn't any game out there yet to make this process fun that would last longer than a week or two.

ED will have the same mechanic of money making which will limit you in your choices as less money you'll have, and because of that limitation there will be a lot of people who would rather have a vacation in ED then work every day to make little bit of money. That's why micro transactions today are popular and successful. People don't like to work in games since they they have enough of that in reveal life.

 

[Kettle]

I can't see this working on Bliztard D3 and foresaw it doomed to failure long before it release and for that I had a great chuckles. But for Elite, it is a different story, and a very difficult one to pin-point. I'd say it all depend on the mass and deepness of Elite which is all down to developers.

 

[Ayo]

ALL missions (as far as I am aware) are procedurally generated based on the conditions of the political/economic/NPC simulation (which itself is influenced by players actions and injected events.) So no end-game, no set missions (accept maybe live, one-off events).

For credits to have any real worth in the game, there will have to be recurring costs (maintenance/hanger rent/fuel/ammo/drones/insurance/other consumables) that get larger as your potential income goes up.

 

[tooterfish]

And actually, that sort of fluidity in terms of political problems likely means that the days of "recognized" trade routes like the ones we had in Frontier are numbered?

Not just that, it'll react to supply too. So dumping all those computers from Barnard's Star on Sol should cause the price to enter the toilet very quickly.

With milk runs a thing of the past, if you want to make a killing you'll need to keep a beady eye on the markets and newsfeeds. This is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[ubermick]

Sheperd, to me that takes away the essence of the game. At least in the form of Frontier, the joy of the game was making something of yourself from nothing. With the introduction of microtransactions, it strips the game of that asset. And conversely could ruin it for other players. Multiplayer especially would suffer. All of a sudden the universe could be populated by lads in fully equipped ships with heavy weaponry, taking out honest traders just for a laugh, shouting "hahah, noob" as they wipe out the humble courier who's working hard to scrape enough together to upgrade his Sidewinder to a Cobra. Or you'll get people who, rather than practice and develop skills to complete a challenging mission, they'll just fish out the credit card and upgrade everything so they can get past it.

I know it's a game, I know that real life for many of us is hard work enough without having to face it during the occasions when they try and escape from it. To me though, that's not what ED is about - it's about getting that ship and your hundred credits, and making something of yourself.

 

[kilvenny]

For me this is a game with no end, its a sandbox virtual world that I am going to live in for however many years the game exists. There is the good old Elite rating that now can be attained in variety of ways which I have to obtain at least once. I want to explore and find new systems. I want to see whats down on the planets and then I am looking forward to FPS. Beyond that there are the missions and the colonization. I am looking forward to seeing the universe evolve , watching uninhabited systems develop over months into busy systems. Oh and there are the Thargoids.

I intend to tread my own path and allow what I see and experience to shape how I play the game.

 

[huwthomas]

All of a sudden the universe could be populated by lads in fully equipped ships with heavy weaponry, taking out honest traders just for a laugh, shouting "hahah, noob" as they wipe out the humble courier who's working hard to scrape enough together to upgrade his Sidewinder to a Cobra.

Someone could do the same with an earned uber-ship, it's griefing either way and would need to be dealt with.

Or you'll get people who, rather than practice and develop skills to complete a challenging mission, they'll just fish out the credit card and upgrade everything so they can get past it.

Good luck to them if that's what they want ... it does no harm to anyone else (unless you're in a bragging competition, and personally my brag would be that I was getting both better value and a better experience )

(and I don't think they will have much fun unless they develop skills too)

I know it's a game, I know that real life for many of us is hard work enough without having to face it during the occasions when they try and escape from it. To me though, that's not what ED is about - it's about getting that ship and your hundred credits, and making something of yourself.

Me too. But I'm not particularly worried about any of this, as long as the anti-griefing mechanisms are effective.

 

[Frobitz]

Sheperd, to me that takes away the essence of the game. At least in the form of Frontier, the joy of the game was making something of yourself from nothing. With the introduction of microtransactions, it strips the game of that asset. And conversely could ruin it for other players. Multiplayer especially would suffer. All of a sudden the universe could be populated by lads in fully equipped ships with heavy weaponry, taking out honest traders just for a laugh, shouting "hahah, noob" as they wipe out the humble courier who's working hard to scrape enough together to upgrade his Sidewinder to a Cobra. Or you'll get people who, rather than practice and develop skills to complete a challenging mission, they'll just fish out the credit card and upgrade everything so they can get past it.

I know it's a game, I know that real life for many of us is hard work enough without having to face it during the occasions when they try and escape from it. To me though, that's not what ED is about - it's about getting that ship and your hundred credits, and making something of yourself.

All speculation though isn't it? I doubt Frontier want to see the outcome you describe.

Anyway, worst case scenario, split the players allowed into instances so if you've not partaken of the forbidden fruit of sickly microtransactions for credits, you don't get exposed to those who are hooked on 'em.

Take the easy route and buy those credits though? Suddenly you're in with 'that lot' and good luck to ya.

 

[Enride]

Not an Elite vet, in fact never played any of the earlier ones so my voice on this matter might not be high and noteworthy.

But an open sandbox game where the main goal of every player, no matter which path they choose, is to expand their influence (power) by earning resources would be completely ruined if it was possible to obtain those resources by simply "buying them" for real money.

About the main story discussion, I feel very happy about how ED seems to turn out, there there IS a "main story" that unfolds in the background, one that we can take part in through news feeds, in game events and the likes, but the real impact of this story will only affect us in subtle ways.

I can totally imagine how a certain docking station becomes unavailable as the conflict between two empires has thrown that system into anarchy.
And only if the players engage in the conflict and fights to declare a victor can the station eventually become available again.

And heres the great thing, players can take missions from either side of the conflict, turning this area into both a PvE (fighting rebels) and PvP (fighting the other empire).
Will the players all unite under the same empire, to quickly suppress the rebellion and restore the station? Of will the players divide, fighting for the empire they feel the most alliegence towards?

 

[KickahasTier]

If FD would answer these questions and concerns, Id be sooo happy.

 

[ubermick]

That's an interesting point, Mack. I'd been thinking of ED in terms of one or the other - either single player mode or multiplayer mode - but will the final version be a blend of those?

Imagine a scenario like this… I'm playing single player away on my own, and headed to a system where I've got a megabucks order for goods. But there's a blockade of some sort, or a scenario has developed that makes getting to said system hazardous to my health. Could I then activate multiplayer mode, nip online and recruit some wingmen, fly to said system and tidy up the situation, pay the lads (or promise to return the favour down the road) and then return to single player mode, with my path to the system now clear?

 

[Patrick_68000]

No interest to buy of cr against some real money. Better do not play and go drown its mediocrity in the alcohol