The Problem With Planet Zoo

I think I've worked out what sticks in my throat about Planet Zoo and what it is about the game that makes it un-fun to play in Franchise mode... After watching a video on YouTube last night about developers "protecting players from themselves"

In short, the video talks about how developers will try to weed out "undesirable player behaviours" by punishing the player for certain strategies. Think along the lines of turn limits in XCom2 or more aggressive AI for indecisive players in Civ6 etc. And this got me thinking about why, for me, Planet Zoo is just not enjoyable when Planet Coaster is.

My conclusion is that, for whatever reasons they have decided, the game punishes you for certain play styles and almost forces your hand to play their way or no way at all. How many franchise zoos have you lost through bankruptcy because of the refund thing? Or how many times you've lost prestige because of protestors? How many complaints about guests being unhappy because you didn't spam education boards everywhere? Placing facilities and being punished for them being too close to guests (and then their ranges not being effective enough to warrant hiding them anyway) when every-one knows in reality guests don't care about these things. The game punishes you for not doing these things (either the way they want you to or not at all), rather than rewarding your for doing them. Sometimes it isn't even the players fault but you are still punished. So, rather than an uplift in results, you get a negative impact instead. But, that means that if you DO want to run a basic or even a bad zoo in Franchise, you can't.. you are pretty much stuck with how Frontier WANT you to treat your animals, keep your guests happy, lay your zoo out etc.

Of course, there are design reasons for this and many people will argue the contrary to my point (usually citing "you just need to play the game better"): There is an element of animal welfare education they want players to have, you have to plan your zoo etc. But what this STOPS you doing is being rewarded for spending hours diving into the building tools creating a beautiful zoo when that effort is thrown in your face when your zoo goes under because you haven't played the way Frontier wanted you to. So, instead you opt for a more shallow, plop-and-move-on strategy because you're punished for not keeping animals happy or guests educated by spamming boards every-where over using the powerful building tools. Now, this is then further emphasised by some players selling animals on the market for heightened prices - because THAT is the place the player gets their sense of success.. Not from their zoo. They get more of a rush from farming a tonne and selling peafowl for 100 credits than they do building beautiful, well kept zoos. Frontier seem to have missed that players will find their own level of success in whatever way they can and will shy away from anything that punishes them for their traits.

Planet Coaster on the other hand does the opposite. You are rewarded for building beautiful parks, great rides, more interesting flat rides, themed dark rides with the park rating and prestige system. Your park will operate just fine if you put minimal effort in, but you get BETTER results by making the effort. No, while this is a thin line between the 2, this does not mean you are punished for not making the effort because you're able to survive without; unlike Planet Zoo where you can say goodbye to a 2 or 3 week project for making one simple mistake.

And this for me, sums up why I put the game down after 40 or so hours but have clocked up 3000 on PlanCo and have no intention of going back while it is in this form. Planet Coaster for me is a much more rewarding game because it adapts to your play style; I'm not forced to build a theme park in the way that Frontier want me to, I am free to do whatever and find my own successes from it. Planet Zoo however punishes me for not feeding birds when it is their own keepers being bugged out that make this an issue, not my inability to feed them. I'm sometimes being punished for things that aren't even in my control.
 
Planet Coaster on the other hand does the opposite. You are rewarded for building beautiful parks, great rides, more interesting flat rides, themed dark rides with the park rating and prestige system. Your park will operate just fine if you put minimal effort in, but you get BETTER results by making the effort.

Honestly, the same thing counts for Planet Coaster. If you don't build great rides in Planco with good rates, you are in deep trouble as well.
Your story explains even more why these games are so much a like but Planet Zoo has some added stuff that keeps the game more interesting (for me).

How many franchise zoos have you lost through bankruptcy because of the refund thing?

Only one zoo because I was just messing around when I opened my first zoo. Never again after that.

Or how many times you've lost prestige because of protestors?

Hardly any. Only in sandbox I have protestors (which shouldn't even be there).

How many complaints about guests being unhappy because you didn't spam education boards everywhere?

Never had any complaint.

Placing facilities and being punished for them being too close to guests (and then their ranges not being effective enough to warrant hiding them anyway) when every-one knows in reality guests don't care about these things.

If the game wants me to make backstage area's, I make backstage area's. I don't see the problem. It's an added challenge in regards of planning ahead.

The game punishes you for not doing these things (either the way they want you to or not at all), rather than rewarding your for doing them. Sometimes it isn't even the players fault but you are still punished. So, rather than an uplift in results, you get a negative impact instead. But, that means that if you DO want to run a basic or even a bad zoo in Franchise, you can't.. you are pretty much stuck with how Frontier WANT you to treat your animals, keep your guests happy, lay your zoo out etc.

The only thing I get from this, is yeah, they made the game harder. But in no way they determine the layout of my zoo, or how I should treat my animals.

(usually citing "you just need to play the game better")

I'll only quote the line because it sounds good.

It's a shame you can't enjoy the game the same way I for instance can. But to me Planet Zoo has a lot of things Planet Coaster is lacking (terrain presets, facilities out of sight, refunds).
 
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I haven’t played franchise since launch. I failed the first couple times but once I caught on I didn’t seem to have a problem except for the occasional crash. I haven’t played pz in three days (a personal record for me)because of a creative slump in deciding my next plans in my sandbox zoo but maybe franchise is the change of pace I need. If and when I do I’ll report how my experience was playing.
 
Luke, I'm glad that you're not having issues and that you appear to be playing it as Frontier intended you play, meaning that none of what I say here resonates with your experience. Doesn't make what I'm saying wrong.

Sandbox is the fix to this by the way, because it largely removes the fail conditions contained in other modes. Doesn't matter if your zoo tanks in sandbox, you have infinite money.
 
Some complaints that PC had no management aspects and was too easy, some complaints that PZ has too much management.

No games can please everyone sadly and there are different modes to play around with certainly in PZ if you want to change the experience, hopefully should be something for everyone. sandbox for instance allows disabling of a lot of features in other modes of the game.
 
A lot of games have rules/features/limits, shame you don't enjoy the game but it seems you just bought the wrong game for you.
Didn't experience any of your problems - no bankrupt zoo, no refunds problems etc.
But I agree, some features could be improved in franchise. I don't like restarting everything (cash/research) when i open a new zoo in franchise

I don't feel limited by the in-game features, when you are new to this building mechanic - there's a bit of a learning curve.
But everybody has different expectations of a game, made some bad choices on some games too.

In short, the video talks about how developers will try to weed out "undesirable player behaviours" by punishing the player for certain strategies. Think along the lines of turn limits in XCom2 or more aggressive AI for indecisive players in Civ6 etc
You lost me on this one. Something like turn limits are a well known for some turn-based games. I own quite a few of those. And a limit gives you more motivation to succeed.
Just like the time-based missions in a lot of games (like, you need to succeed within 2 minutes), i don't see it as punishment - it's a challenge.

Franchise mode is the part with limits/challenge opportunities and for creative building etc. I use sandbox.
 
The biggest problem for me, copious bugs aside, is the fact it's more 'Planet Food & Drink (with animals)'. They really need to sort the balance out with guest needs, it's ridiculous and bears no resemblance to real life, I don't know of any zoo that needs 35+ food and drink shops to keep their guests happy ! (Our local zoo just has 1 restaurant).

Add to that the problem of guests demanding refunds cos they didn't see all the animals they wanted to see due to the illogical route they took through the zoo, like that would ever be an actual thing, who on earth thought up such a ridiculous mechanic ???
 
The biggest problem for me, copious bugs aside, is the fact it's more 'Planet Food & Drink (with animals)'. They really need to sort the balance out with guest needs, it's ridiculous and bears no resemblance to real life, I don't know of any zoo that needs 35+ food and drink shops to keep their guests happy ! (Our local zoo just has 1 restaurant).

Add to that the problem of guests demanding refunds cos they didn't see all the animals they wanted to see due to the illogical route they took through the zoo, like that would ever be an actual thing, who on earth thought up such a ridiculous mechanic ???
THANK YOU! This is exactly what I think is just so off!
Every time I go to a Zoo I always pack Food and drinks to eat there!And if I get hungry, I look at the map and go to the restaurant in the zoo. There is no food cort every corner, there are more educational stuff there instead.
Not only this, sometimes you dont get to see the Animal you really really wanted to see. Maybe its hiding or you cant see because its indoors because of bad weather etc.
Is this a reason to get a refund? They would laugh at us for demanding a refund for "not seeing the animals i wanted to see so i am unhappy with my entire visit despite all of my needs beeing met and me seeing a ton of other awesome animals".

The Devs said it was like this with the refund to encourage the player to make the zoo great. But you can have the best zoo, its not working if the guest walk through the zoo like they cant read maps or signs..?
It should be more tied with the animal welfare. If the animal is really unhappy and doesnt feel good etc. thats more likely to make a guest unhappy and getting a refund. But this triggers only the protestors.
 
THANK YOU! This is exactly what I think is just so off!
Every time I go to a Zoo I always pack Food and drinks to eat there!And if I get hungry, I look at the map and go to the restaurant in the zoo. There is no food cort every corner, there are more educational stuff there instead.
Not only this, sometimes you dont get to see the Animal you really really wanted to see. Maybe its hiding or you cant see because its indoors because of bad weather etc.
Is this a reason to get a refund? They would laugh at us for demanding a refund for "not seeing the animals i wanted to see so i am unhappy with my entire visit despite all of my needs beeing met and me seeing a ton of other awesome animals".

The Devs said it was like this with the refund to encourage the player to make the zoo great. But you can have the best zoo, its not working if the guest walk through the zoo like they cant read maps or signs..?
It should be more tied with the animal welfare. If the animal is really unhappy and doesnt feel good etc. thats more likely to make a guest unhappy and getting a refund. But this triggers only the protestors.

This. My favorite zoo has two food courts and two small snack stands. That's it. If you are looking at the tigers and you get hungry you need to walk 5 minutes to the food court. It's 10 minutes if your hungry by the eagles.

I don't mind the education boards but the food and drink refunds are not realistic and make me annoyed. I want to make nice habitats, not cram in restaurants.

Also I try every time to see the ocelot, but he is shy and not once in five years have I seen him. I have never asked for a refund, although I have joked about the emperor's new ocelot.
 
@AaronTuckwell

This is not a problem with PZ or the Franchise mode since there are lots of players enjoying this mode very much, in spite of some things that still need ironing out. I am still playing Franchise, even though the unrepsonsiveness of the trade center drives me crazy, because I like the challenges. But players are different and have different preferences. For instance, some zoos that I want to build in the future would not work in Franchise because they require too much infrastructure already in place right from the beginning (I could recycle an older zoo with lots of cash available, though). That’s where Sandbox mode comes in. And after the recent addition of even more options to set up the game just the way you like it or even change it in the middle of the game, this mode should satisfy any playing style.

Franchise ”forces” you to manage all aspects of your zoo well, not just pick one or two of them you like and ignore the rest at will. This playing style is inherent in the mode, which is supposed to be challenging. It’s this mode’s premise, not a punishment for certain individual playing styles.

How can you claim that Frontier wants to drive players away when they offer different ways to play the game to cater to as many different playing styles and preferences as possible? Have you tried Sandbox? Shouldn’t that mode solve all your issues?
 
I think you might have more fun in sandbox? I say this because I just want to create beautiful zoos and I find too much micro management stressful. Sandbox suits my needs. The thought of Franchise fills me with dread to be honest!
 
I agree with Nat, for me Planet Zoo is sandbox mode, as PC. Aaron, I think this game is not for you, your needs are too different from those conceived in the game. Certain aspects can be improved with patches or sensitive additions in the game, but if the basic concept for which the game was born does not reflect your needs I don't think you can do much.
 
I had a customer today beeing sad he didnt see the Nilwaran and the Galapagos Tortoise. Both are located right at the entrance/exit. HE WALKED RIGHT PAST THE HABITATS (twice!). He was in the green with all the bars but I think he still got the refund because he didnt see the animal he wanted to see. Despite them beeing right there! He had to walk past both exhibits while entering and leaving the zoo, but still his AI route didnt let him go and see them?? Im sorry but this is just so weird?

When I go to the Zoo and I want to see the Fossa, I make sure my route goes to the Fossa habitat when Im visiting the local Zoo. I want to see the Aquarium and the Lizards too, so I go there after. I just dont get why the AI of the guests in PZ is so messed up.
 
Google Translator:
Hi there,
I also noticed that people complain about a bad view because the hippo "Louise" is too far away.
The hippo "Karl" is right in front of the visitor's mouth and eats.

The AI of the visitors AND the employees still have to be adapted very well.
In my large compound enclosure I watched tonight how the animal keeper (one of two who is only responsible for feeding) wanted to fill up the feed.
When he was halfway to the enrichment items, he turned and ran back a portion to fill an enrichment near the entrance.
Then he returned to the other items.
But it also fills up crisscross. He runs past ONE object three to four times, that is also filled at some point.

That is unnecessarily long distances.

By the way, he doesn't take turns with his colleague.

The colleague just keeps walking up and down and is bored while working without a break.


The food and drink shops are a bit much, but somewhere you have to have income if a guest spends a year in the zoo.

Entry is a too small and rare source of income.

I like micromanagment, but it should definitely be revised.
I do not want to keep animal keepers from all duties, just that they finally take a break and take turns with a colleague.
 
Add to that the problem of guests demanding refunds cos they didn't see all the animals they wanted to see due to the illogical route they took through the zoo, like that would ever be an actual thing, who on earth thought up such a ridiculous mechanic ???

Holy heck, right?

I don't play Franchise so it doesn't technically affect me, but I am all for making guests behave more realistically.
 
I also share your disdain for franchise mode, which makes me curious: Have you tried career and challenge? Because I find these to be far better modes. Even in challenge mode, I often choose one of the maps they made for the career levels (they let you do that!) and do whatever I want with it. Help the zoo flourish and bring it to it's full potential. I enjoyed career levels where you're given a dinky, messed up zoo to fix. Also, the levels where you get a beautiful map (like Yamaguchi Prefecture Tranquility Zoo).
 
Agree with almost everything @Luuknoord said here (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-problem-with-planet-zoo.536521/post-8270095)

The Devs said it was like this with the refund to encourage the player to make the zoo great. But you can have the best zoo, its not working if the guest walk through the zoo like they cant read maps or signs..?
It should be more tied with the animal welfare. If the animal is really unhappy and doesnt feel good etc. thats more likely to make a guest unhappy and getting a refund. But this triggers only the protestors.
I think there can definitely be some improvements made here regarding guest pathing.

Every time I go to a Zoo I always pack Food and drinks to eat there!And if I get hungry, I look at the map and go to the restaurant in the zoo. There is no food cort every corner, there are more educational stuff there instead.
I disagree with this. Don't just think from your perspective. Lots of situations where people come to a zoo maybe after a long road trip? or unprepared? so they have to eat after they come in. Kids? Yeah they're going to be asking to go to the washroom every so often etc, etc. There are many more situations to think about. Yes - I hear you, there is definitely a line where you can tell something is absurd, but let's think about this a little more carefully.

Regarding OP's post in general, a lot of people have echoed this: I don't think game is for you, or in-fact what you should do is play in sandbox mode. I don't feel like I'm restricted in any play-style at all. I've had more freedom than ever in a tycoon game, and it has a decent level of challenge. If the challenge is really getting to you, then you have to be patient and try different things, or move on with what makes you happy.
 
With the ability to switch on or off animal needs and welfare, permanently lock guest happiness I'm not sure what your issue is. There is also Sandbox mode where you can not care about money at all!
If the restrictions of careers and franchise don't suit, you still have two other options at your hands. That's not restricting game play at all.
 
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