The PvP/PvE Disparity

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

To the Mods! This isn't actually a "PvP only" discussion, and is intended for the entire community to discuss, and it's just a bit of fun...
This also isn't the place for an open/solo discussion, or CLogging, engineers or anything else!
Although, I'm betting we'll be off topic before page 2... Lol

Anyhoo, there's a big, and obvious disparity between PvP ships, and PvE.

PvP ships are generally set up for, well, combat. Duh. And they're good, no, excellent at it.
PvE combat ships aren't actually that far behind, really. They usually have some "creature comforts", such as fuel scoops, or SRV, whatever, and weapons more suited to prolonged combat.
Multipurpose, exploration, mining and trading ships are generally, and obviously, the furthest behind when it comes to PvP. But they don't need to be Uber combat ships, because that's not what they're doing.
The point is, PvE ships generally need to stick other things in the utilities and internal slots in order to do their chosen roll, while PvP ships can just load up on defences.

Anyhoo, I'm waffling...

So, I was thinking (first warning sign!), how to make PvP ships less effective, but without actually nerfing anything. Because nerfs are annoying.
So my solution is...

*Drum roll*


....Add some internal and utility modules that are pretty much only useful in PvP, much like the fuel limpet. But not. But they don't actually make your ship better. Or worse. They just do "things" PvPers might find useful enough to replace shield boosters or H/MRPs.

But what modules, you ask? (Or didn't)

Glad you asked! (Or didn't).

I have no flippin' clue. Lol

Some kind of scanner, that does something?
Electronic warfare stuff?

That's the point of this discussion...!
(Maybe I should have led with that...?)

Let's brainstorm random modules that'd be useful for PvP, but don't add to offence or defence..!

I had one idea, but while typing all of this gubbins I forgot it.... It'll come to me. (Maybe)

Discuss! Or don't!

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

Obviously a scanner that allows you to see the level and/or special effects of engineered modules of Cmdrs in Supercruise.

 

[Stealthie]

...modules that'd be useful for PvP, but don't add to offence or defence..!

I think I'm going to need an example.

Also, my paradox-detector just melted.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Obviously a scanner that you can see the level and or special effects of engineered modules of Cmdrs in Supercruise.

Heh, that's also useful for PvE.
I did suggest this idea once, or twice. It'd be really handy to see, not only for PvP, but PvE, and managing events. So +1!

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

A scanner that allows you to see how many current player kill bounties a Cmdr has.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Nice try, but not working. PvPers will probably still go for best damage, defense and maneuverability. If you really want to remove the disparity you will have to regulate and limit possible builds by giving internal slots fixed purposes. For a multipurpose ship this would mean it would get military internals comparable to a combat ship that can only be filled with combat modules and another set of internals that can only be used for civilian purposes. That way you have pure combat ships and ships that can do combat plus something else, but can't be purely kitted for combat.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

A Module that allows you to have different coloured target reticules for different weapons. I would use a module for that. Needs to be patched.

 

[Martind Forlon]

There is imo zero need for make any changes to effectiveness of PvP ships (it can be good question what it actually is the pvp ship ... .. is it about the ship or about cmdr play decision?), ships defense (globally) is already good enough (and will be even better with Q1) to allow for everyone to survive (almost) all hostile encounter. Cmdrs decision about equipment and theirs evaluation what they are able do with chosen equipment are deciding ...

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I like the idea of the OP, but I think Cmdr Numa is right. Defense stacking, unmodified, is always going to be too strong to give up.

Interesting utility functions can be thought up, I'm sure, but nothing can beat the utility of not dying.

I think the benefits of module stacking just need to be hit. They did it quite well with MRP's. Something similar - or just a hard limit like things like fuelscoops have - for shield cells, boosters, and HRP's would basically solve the issue overnight. As would having negative effects for these modules that pile on exponentially as you stack them.

This sort of "nerf" might not be "fun" for people, but it's still essentially a bugfix, the bug was just one of the thought process in design, rather than one of code.

If there was a bug that allowed, say, turreted beams that ignored chaff, used no WEP, and generated no heat, you know that a lot of players would find those great fun. But that doesn't mean FD should never fix that bugs.

Player "fun" is not the end-all goal of game design. Fun and challenge within the rules and framework of the game is far closer to the truth. Talking about the state of "fun" but not recognizing the importance of carefully considered rules is ignoring most of the picture.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

New hardpoints that effectively block the majority of incoming fire, but only if all slots are filled, or something that would significantly boost defenses at the expense of any offensive capabilities.

Then again, that would create more problems that are perceived to exist now, but I do think there could be more options to allow for minimally armed ships to have better defenses than fully armed ships.

 

[Captain N]

I think the idea here is to make these PVP-only modules so heavy, hot and power-hungry that you would need to heavily compromise your ship build in other areas just to make attacking other CMDR's possible in the first place?

Like a costly, heavy FSD interdictor that is needed to turn the minigame to the attacker's favour? At the same time the minigame would be balanced so that it heavily favours the defender as long as that module is not fitted by the attacker. NPC's would remain easy to interdict in either case, but if you wanted to hunt CMDR's in supercruise you would practically need this ridunkulous mega-interdictor that oppressively limits your ability to build an efficient combat ship to have any chance of catching them.

I'm afraid I'm not entirely in favour of such an approach though - because I believe it would basically just boil down to a soft pvp flag. Wearing that "flag" would signal to others you're willing to participate in "balanced" pvp, and not wearing it means you can be pvp'ed, but only in terms that heavily and unfairly favour you.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

This is a stupid myth coming from people who have no experience with the other side of argument and are incompetent at the higher level ship building.

There are no "PVP" or "PVE" builds, there are only good combat builds, the bad combat builds, and multipurpose builds that can do light combat but they sacrifice a lot of their combat ability for the ability to do other things.

What you call "PVP build" is actually a good combat fit that works for any kind of combat. We use our "PVP builds" for PVE all the time. They are superior to your terrible builds and can PVP when needed.

Regarding multi purpose builds that are built to do other things than only combat: obviously they are weaker than combat-only builds. If you want it all, prepare to compromise - a general purpose build will never match a specialised combat build in a fight, that wouldn't make any sense. Get real.

Thread topic is a obsolete non-issue.
Not to mention the fact that engineering is heavily in favour of defence. The ratio of firepower you gain from mods, to survivability you gain from mods, is strongly pro-defence and with any half-decent build and basic survival skills its impossible to get killed. Time-to-kill is ridiculously huge, but the time needed to escape is just a few seconds (effortless highwake).

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

Let's brainstorm random modules that'd be useful for PvP, but don't add to offence or defence..!

Here's the original nuanced question posed by the OP - that quickly and predictably became misunderstood.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Let's brainstorm random modules that'd be useful for PvP, but don't add to offence or defence..!

Devices which significantly increased your ship's mass-lock factor (for locking others, not for your own escaping), and made mass-lock apply to high-wakes, would be pretty much essential for anyone wanting to destroy a PvP-fit ship.

Abolishing the overcharged powerplant engineer blueprint but adding auxillary power plants as optional internals might be an option. (Would be nice for those explorers who must absolutely have 100% module health on everything, too)

Some sort of tracking device that made commanders in normal space detectable as signal sources?

 

[CMDR Corlas]

There are no "PVP" or "PVE" builds, there are only good combat builds, the bad combat builds, and multipurpose builds that can do light combat but they sacrifice a lot of their combat ability for the ability to do other things.

That's utter nonsense. Any competent combat pilot can dominate PvE with a multipurpose build. There is a ceiling in PvE where deeper defenses are useless, because your higher ones never get stripped away. That's where your multipurpose goes in a PvE combat/multipurpose build, and they're not any "worse" at PvE fights than a "pure combat" ship.

I would love to hear from someone if they had an idea for the original question, but like I said, I don't think that's a possible thing. "Not dying" and "killing the other guy" is far too great a utility.

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

That's utter nonsense. Any competent combat pilot can dominate PvE with a multipurpose build. There is a ceiling in PvE where deeper defenses are useless, because your higher ones never get stripped away. That's where your multipurpose goes in a PvE combat/multipurpose build, and they're not any "worse" at PvE fights than a "pure combat" ship.

Except, I'm speaking with PVP in mind aswell.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Abolishing the overcharged powerplant engineer blueprint but adding auxillary power plants as optional internals might be an option. (Would be nice for those explorers who must absolutely have 100% module health on everything, too)

Maybe I stand corrected, that's a really good idea. Although functionally, it amounts to defense/offense, because it enables powering that, or defense in the form of still fighting if your powerplant dies, but I like how it does it.

Nice.

Except, I'm speaking with PVP in mind aswell.

PvP yes, I agree. But not PvE. And that's the "disparity" the title of the thread refers to.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I also suggested a while back, that he current "have it all" combat builds shouldn't really exist. Not many games let you tank and gank at the same time.

There should be a compromise between offence and defence. If you want high damage, you need to sacrifice hit points.

This could be achieved in a number of ways.

The main one being messing with the power, mass and heat of everything so it's not possible to have excellent of both. That'd take so many balance passes we'd all be annoyed with the constant changes. Lol

Or
You can introduce modules and/or utilities that help with your offensive capabilities, but using these obviously sacrifices your defensive capabilities by taking up a slot.
Maybe things like ammo loaders for internals that increase ammo, or store "better" ammo inside, or tracking pods utility that improve tracking and/or target locks and whatnot. Or a stealth counter measure or buff. Or something along those lines
Basically useful stuff that one would consider using over defence.

But this idea goes against what I said in my OP about not increasing offensive capabilities any more. Lol

It's just a fun discussion anyway, don't take it seriously. I don't expect FD to actually on it.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[DMC831]

This may be an awful idea, or change things too much for PVE in a way that'd never fly, but since I wasn't a fan of the disparity between how Solo and Open is played, I had the thought that more NPCs (not all, but more of them) could replicate what the deadliest PVPers do in terms of builds and engineering effects and attack styles.

This would cause traders, miners, everyone to up their standard defense and escape methods to prevent being killed. Everyone would adjust to the new normal, like when the AI of NPCs were improved before. Ya struggle at first and then figure it out and it becomes no problem again as ya naturally develop new, stronger methods to survive.

They won't be able to make the AI as good as the best CMDRs, but the unique and deadly loadouts can be replicated, and the attack styles somewhat simulated. Then, hopefully, there's not such a gap between Elite NPCs and a regular PVPer and people "git gud" by being accustomed to the techniques a ganker may use.

I also think if the NPC interdiction and CMDR interdiction could be equalized so there's not such a stark difference between the two... everyone gets used to the weak NPC interdiction that can always be escaped, and then ya face one from a CMDR and most of the time you have to submit as ya got no chance against it.

Basically, I'd like the NPCs and PVPers be more alike. Not all NPCs, a small percentage, but enough of a percentage to have to be prepared for. This may not be a "problem" many feel the needs to be solved, but the playstyles between Solo and Open are so different in a lotta ways and the 2 different games seem to conflict with each other.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Given that armor and shield need a rework anyway, part of this could come in there.

Aside from the obviously needed shield changes, if armor were changed so that HRP's required power (but regenerated slowly in return), that could help quite a bit.

We could look at pirates and miners as a model here too. Both those professions require a variety of modules that by default lend themselves to other uses: A pirate ship can also run missions well, a miner is also a passable trader, etc. Combat builds could be made into something similar.

For example, what if shield cells were not built into the Shield Cell Bank, but were a cargo item like commodities or limpets? Instantly, any ship wanting an SCB would need a cargo rack too, just as any ship wanting to use limpets does. Could also give hatch breakers a combat role, which could be interesting and is another module.