The quest for more small and expensive ships.

[Windscreen Smudge]

It would completely break the pvp balance. Either everyone starts flying around in these fast mini-ships, and the big ships don't get used, or the small ship is just useless and gets ignored.

You pay for what you get, so it just doesn't make sense for their to be a super small expensive craft. As it currently stands, the bigger the part, the more effective the part is, and the more expensive it is. Why would this tiny craft be so expensive and fast? it has a super high-tech and efficient engine that only fits in the new special ship and no other ship? It just doesn't make any sense.

500-700 m/s boost speed is never going to happen, that would absolutely break the pvp beyond belief. The clipper goes 440 and that is already fast enough to leave pythons and condas in the dust.

More importantly, Frontier already has several ships similar to what you are asking for.

The viper is not good for pvp, the cobra isn't particularly useful either (unless you just want to run away the whole time) but luckily FD has released several small ships that cost around 2-10 million to outfit that are pvp capable.
The imperial eagle and imperial courier, the diamondback scout and the vulture. All those ships are fast and maneuverable (except the vulture, which is only maneuverable) and would be good with some railguns or torpedoes in pvp.

PvP was never balanced to begin with, so what are we breaking again?

Push this, and force Frontier to consider how a ship like this would fit in an actual balanced system, then maybe we'll get the mountain of other problems with ship balance fixed because they're finally forced to reconsider other aspects.

Edit: That is to say, push a small, expensive ship. Not the OP's suggestion on actual statistics. I never even considered them a possibility.

 

[Procyon72]

All good points on both sides of this discussion, but the true specialized combat craft, other than those you fly in CQC, doesn't exist in this game. There are base hulls that can be more easily built out for combat and others where you'd have to be bonkers to try (although, for a laugh folks have done so) but essentially every ship in ED is multirole to some extent. That's intentional on the part of FD, and is crucial to how they envisioned the game design.

It's folly to argue that with the tech demonstrated by the current stable of ships that you COULDNT build a jump-capable combat craft that would be extremely good at that and nothing else but by its very nature it would be OP in combat against anything else not specifically designed to fight. (and if we're all being honest here, that's precisely why the combat specialists want it in the first place)

You think the screaming about perceived "griefing" from pilots that are not very combat oriented now is bad? Try putting those pilots that ARE combat specialists in a ship specifically designed for that role with all the advantages that implies! For that reason alone, I'd bet my ship that FD wont ever make such a thing.

But thats already in the game. If i take any ship and use a combat-oriented loadout it is specialized for combat. Even if i take a type-9, load it up with hull-reinforcement packages and weapons and go hunt pirates it is a ship that is in that moment specialized for combat.

Everyone who goes into a combat zone has his ship specialised for combat. Why else would you enter a combat zone in the first place? No one enters a Warzone in an exploration vessel or a trader. Same as no one tries to reach Sag A* in a ship that is outfitted for combat. Even if you decide you absolutely need your cargo rack or your discovery scanner in a warzone you cant be surprised if someone shows up with a better loadout.
And if your trader gets interdicted by this fighter your chances of getting away are better than being interdicted by a Phyon because that fighter cant masslock you.

Also there are already combat oriented ships in the game, like the Vulture, Viper, FdL or Eagle. The only reason to try to trade with a Vulture is for s and giggels.
We are also talking about a fighter, not a Capital ship. This fighter is not capable of soloing a Player Anaconda. A AI conda, ok, but the AI cant fly a damn.

(...)

Im sorry if i have offended you, that was not my intention.
I was assuming you were talking about my design, which is much more moderate than the OPs ship. The downside of not making my own thread i guess. I do however appreciate that you have found the time for such a long and detailed reply.
The OPs ships would, in fact, be overpowered. Especially the speed. But i have already explained that you dont need a faster ship to be actually faster in combat. Every ship turns better when it is at about 50% Topspeed. Having a fighter that is capable of 75% while maintaining maximum agility would be faster in combat while not being faster in a pursuit. Same idea with Firepower, better Hardpoint-placement and a better Distributor results in better Firepower without the need for more weapons. I wasnt clear enough with the Vultures cockpit, i meant that it is humongous for a combat oriented vessel. Sorry `bout that.

You are right that the Vulture is pretty close to such a ship. But a Vulture costs about 15mil, A-grade combat ready. There are just no fighters in the higher pricerange. The purpose of this thread is to show that a high Performance fighter is not necessarily Overpowered. Even a small increase in Speed and Power would turn a Vulture from a low cost high performance fighter to a high cost excellent performance fighter. This is a simple matter of balancing, not a gamebreakingly OP ship im talking about.

 

[Firestarter]

Well. People do seem to have an AWFUL lot to day on this topic.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

Wrote in other threads, instead of "more ships" I'd prefer better ability to wider customize/tune/tweak/pimp small amount of base hulls - and this should be both deep functional & visual customization (e.g. make "super blockade runner" eagle with massive dual twin-engines, or add extra weapon wingtips to your Dropship while making it even more sluggish and so on).

There are persistent rumors (?) that some form crafting in plans anyway so I'd hope for the best. Hopefully within next century

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

Wrote in other threads, instead of "more ships" I'd prefer better ability to wider customize/tune/tweak/pimp small amount of base hulls - and this should be both deep functional & visual customization (e.g. make "super blockade runner" eagle with massive dual twin-engines, or add extra weapon wingtips to your Dropship while making it even more sluggish and so on).

There are persistent rumors (?) that some form crafting in plans anyway so I'd hope for the best. Hopefully within next century

crafting is part of the "horizons" package, that will be delivered somewhere between this and next christmas

 

[DaveB]

But thats already in the game. If i take any ship and use a combat-oriented loadout it is specialized for combat. Even if i take a type-9, load it up with hull-reinforcement packages and weapons and go hunt pirates it is a ship that is in that moment specialized for combat.

Not exactly, you've taken a hull that is heavily biased towards trade and made it into the best combat ship it can be. That's exactly my point about ALL hulls in ED are multirole to some extent AND that some hulls you'd have to be bonkers to try and combat-fit but folks have done it anyway. The infamous battle-cow comes to mind

Everyone who goes into a combat zone has his ship specialised for combat. Why else would you enter a combat zone in the first place? No one enters a Warzone in an exploration vessel or a trader. Same as no one tries to reach Sag A* in a ship that is outfitted for combat. Even if you decide you absolutely need your cargo rack or your discovery scanner in a warzone you cant be surprised if someone shows up with a better loadout.
And if your trader gets interdicted by this fighter your chances of getting away are better than being interdicted by a Phyon because that fighter cant masslock you.

All fair points and if I were at all piratically inclined I'd probably keep my current python loadout and just swap out the KWS for a cargo scanner then sacrifice some cargo space for an interdictor, a limpet controller and hatch breakers. As it is it works well for defending my cargo when pirated and it doesn't get mass locked worth a darn by anything smaller than a 'conda. It's decent for BH too but I don't take it into CZs. The fighter, however, would be useless for a pirate, it wouldn't have any cargo space at all. The fighter exists for one purpose, to destroy other ships. A ship built from the ground up as a fighter wouldn't, of course, have cargo or a discovery scanner - if it was truly a specialized hull there wouldn't even be anywhere you COULD put those things.

Also there are already combat oriented ships in the game, like the Vulture, Viper, FdL or Eagle. The only reason to try to trade with a Vulture is for s and giggels.
We are also talking about a fighter, not a Capital ship. This fighter is not capable of soloing a Player Anaconda. A AI conda, ok, but the AI cant fly a damn.

Those are still multirole to the extent that while their BEST loadouts are pure combat, they can also be fitted for piracy or rares trading. The vulture is as close as you'll see to a pure combat hull and if people are bonkers enough to fit a trader for combat they are probably bonkers enough to fit a fighter for trade

The dedicated fighter spec in the OP most definitely COULD solo a player 'conda if their skills were even remotely similar. This would have to be a role-specific build, not the modular format we're used to, as I said in my earlier comment it would obviously be possible given the tech the existing ships display but it sure as heck wouldn't be modifiable with standard modules! The conda would have little choice to survive other than "be elsewhere" no matter how many reinforcements, boosters and SCBs that hull had packed in, because if they stuck around the fighter described in the OP would eventually get them. If it was a multirole 'conda rather than a pure combat loadout, even more so.

 

[Flash_Baggins]

The viper is not good for pvp

Just watch some of Isinona's videos and you will immediately disagree with yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvlw2-0xSqU

That being said, he did have some backup from other larger ships

 

[xslam]

Yeah I believe the red version was sarcasm

Red version (literally) was a savage reality of old grindy MMO games. Standard version, then red version, then purple version and eventually B.F.Skinner's version. Don't confuse it with "epic" equipment. Red version means new degree of every item introduced by devs, it makes stuff of player obsolete each N of months.

Skinner's progression is maximally stupid and simply version of WoW like progression.

real PVP in Elite has always been a rich persons game

True. Many of them violates EULA and take as many money as they want. (FD stripped those who was too greedy) Many grind alot, many just old players. Anyway, they are social players so they usually know how to grind at much faster pace than average player do. But PvPers usually much more young player than PVErs. (5-100 hours (then big part of them says "game is grindy" and leave) vs 100-700)
Conclusion: they so rich because they can. Hovever Elite offer no PvP content for what might be considered as high level in another MMO. They like to see more harsher death penalty, as in this case they can hurt more and their money will be a great advantage.


In the other hand we have PvPers who plays just for fun. But they aren't majority.

And yes, personally consider the raising ceiling in ED as "admissable", i won't play it anyway, may be i will play CQC if it evolves to something better. (Yes, CQC migt become something interesting if FD implement 32 or even 64 players, siege of capital ships mode and keep their course with sidegrades instead of flat upgrades like in main game)

this forum is freaking toxic

a MMORPG forum always toxic. Visit EVE forum, dont forget your heavy HAZMAT suit

The credit sink option is also stupid because it would be pay to win, but with ingame money.

Do not confuse. This is stupid grinding, not P2W.
P2W is when you can purchase valuables for real money.

 

[Deleted member 94277]

I disagre with the OP too but to be fair, re-read his post. You're taking it 180 degree out of context.

He wants expensive small ships that are just as viable large ships, which presumably are at least as expensive- although he didnt specify that.

Yeah, he didn't specified that. So, I disagree that I'm taking it out of context, as you said it yourself, he didn't specified it.

Apperntly you cant read, as I asked for a ship as expensive as the anaconda.

Apparently, you don't know how to write properly.

First, We need a Small ship with very cost.

If this is what you mean by "asked for a ship as expensive as the anaconda", then you really need to improve on your communication skills. The Annie is THE most expensive ship in the game as you express that you want your imaginary ship to be at the same price range by saying 'with very cost', whatever that even means, then frankly, this is an english only board and I'm not going to try and translate every broken english that people write here. And before you start with 'english is not my natural language, etc', it's not mine either. So just learn it already.

 

[GunnerBill]

How the heck would 2 large and 2 medium even fit a small frame? Have you seen the Vulture? It's 30% gun 70% engine and a cockpit straped on.

To be fair the Vultures cockpit is bizarrely massive!

 

[jacozilla]

Yeah, he didn't specified that. So, I disagree that I'm taking it out of context, as you said it yourself, he didn't specified it

I'm not really trying here to defend OP's position because I do disagree with his ask, but nowhere in my reply did I say he didnt specify. Quite the reverse, I pointed out yo you that you took him out of context incorrectly re: wanting small, cheap ships because his post was quite clear re: wanting small, expensive ships that could be as viable as large.

it does sound like english is not his native language but his post seems quite clear to me. You only quoted one selective part of his post that admittedly wasnt perfect english, but right at top of his point in second paragraph he veey clearly and explicitly states:
"The problem is several fold. First up, There are no high cost, high power ships of the small side."

Given full context of his post, even with the typos and bad english, he was very clear that what he wants and suggests is a high cost, high power, small ship that later in his posts he states be as "viable" as larger ships.

which is where I disagreed.

 

[jonny taco]

asp scout, get ready.

 

[ChubbyBunneh]

We need a large ship that's dirt cheap and has a huge engine because there aren't any.

Make it twice the size of the Anaconda and give it max speed 3000m/s and 4000m/s while boosting. This game doesn't have enough really fast gigantic ships that cost less than 3.50 credits.

To make OP happy they could always reset the price of the Vulture and FDL to what they originally were. 22M for Vulture and 105M for FDL. Problem solved?

 

[GunnerBill]

We need a large ship that's dirt cheap and has a huge engine because there aren't any.

Make it twice the size of the Anaconda and give it max speed 3000m/s and 4000m/s while boosting. This game doesn't have enough really fast gigantic ships that cost less than 3.50 credits.

To make OP happy they could always reset the price of the Vulture and FDL to what they originally were. 22M for Vulture and 105M for FDL. Problem solved?

I love these irony posts.

 

[Don Alvarez]

I think we should have a ship thats basically one of those big inflatable sumo suits powered by 18 fire extinguishers. It'll be nimble as hell, have no guns but it will also take absolutely 0 collision damage.

 

[GunnerBill]

I think we should have a ship thats basically one of those big inflatable sumo suits powered by 18 fire extinguishers. It'll be nimble as hell, have no guns but it will also take absolutely 0 collision damage.

All the time it would fly like you've just crashed out of an interdiction... not good!

 

[Kristov]

First off, since when is 350 tons a LIGHT anything in Elite Dangerous? My Imperial Clipper is 400 tons, Python is 350 ton, and I'm pretty sure neither of those ships is considered Light, Small or anything of that sort. The Asp Explorer is 280 tons and isn't a Light or Small ship, it's a Medium ship.

Have you actually bothered to look at the stats for the ships in Elite Dangerous, or Elite or the other games in the series? I asked you that in your other thread on this same subject and I guess you still haven't done more than look at the pictures?

And as someone else asked, do you want a trainer with your 350 ton LIGHT fighter or maybe just godmode?

You seem to think PvP in this game is something, it's not, unless you are doing CQC, it's nothing but a bad joke. No balance for PvP at all, bigger is better design philosophy, straight from the PvE origins of the game series, and clear signs that PvP is simply something that is NOT prevented and that's the entirety of the PvP design in the main game, it's NOT prevented.

You want to take out big ships in your Eagle or Viper? Simple answers to that, very simple answers..

1) GIT GUD!
2) GIT FRIENDZ!

Outside of those, you are pretty much out of luck, bigger is better, just like real life when it comes to combat vessels. You aren't IN an F18 bombing a tanker or some other defenseless ship, you are in a small fighter craft facing off against larger craft who have armor, shields and often with more tonnage in weapons than your little fighter masses out at total! And you expect to be the victor? See the 2 points above if you want that to even have the slightest chance of happening, otherwise, get out of your little coffin and get in a real ship with real armor, shields and guns if you want to do PvP in the main game, because that's what your potential targets will be driving usually.

Or you can just stick with CQC and not have to worry about it since all the ships are close enough to the same, via artificial controls, to make the fights a little more even. Outside of CQC, PvP in this game is just a bad joke, stop trying to make it out to be something else, please, it's embarrassing to see.