The rules seem to be overly complicated

[Sentinel]

I've been reading through the dev threads and the rules governing the different player "classes" seem to be getting very complicated.

My ideas run like this-
I presume all players have a reputation rating in each class that influences the RPG elements and event systems, and performing actions will increase or decrease that rating.

Pirates attack ships in order to steal their cargo, you get bigger profits if you don't have to buy it first right?
I read somewhere that if a ship dumps it's cargo and some else picks it up then it will be flagged as stolen. So why not make pirates traders in stolen goods? The piracy rating will go up with the amount sold or the credits earned.

You don't have destroy the victim. If you have a high enough rep you could intimidate him into dumping his load and running away.

The trader rating would go up for selling legal goods.

Smugglers are traders in illegal goods.

Slavers trade slaves.

Bounty hunters are slightly different.every fugitive has a price on his head which anyone with a clean rating can claim. The listed bounty is for the subject to be turned in alive. Killing him nets a lesser reward and destroying his ship but letting him escape pays the least.

Players who want to specialize in bounty hunting can buy a license which will give them access to agencies. An agency will list the highest paying jobs and for a slice of the bounty they will help the player find the subject and hand him over to the authorities.

Assassins are paid to kill. They get their jobs from direct chat with NPCs and players, or through whatever media is appropriate. Their rep goes up with every successful job.

Mercs and navy get missions from their HQ and their reps go up by firstly by completing the missions and secondly by destroying the enemy.

Players who attack other players and NPCs for no good reason, are psychopaths and should be kicked. I guess they could get a warning by being ruthlessly hunted by police and bounty hunters, but if they persist then ban them.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
Cheers

 

[PacalB]

Hey, theres your opinions on it! I think you'll find that the "rules" of ED are not so different to what you've just put up here. Anyway, welcome to the forum Sentinel.

 

[Calico Jack]

Players who attack other players and NPCs for no good reason, are psychopaths and should be kicked. I guess they could get a warning by being ruthlessly hunted by police and bounty hunters, but if they persist then ban them.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
Cheers

I don't get all the hate for murderous psychopaths. It's a game and games need baddies! I wouldn't like to play in a completely sanitized universe.

If you don't like them, get a posse together and go get them. Otherwise, you could simply block them if you don't want to meet them again.

You could argue attacking at random is just griefing and that it is unrealistic play. However, there are are some awful people in the world today and there probably will still be in the future. Insane killers exist in other Sci-Fi - for instance the Reavers in Firefly.

Personally, I don't intend to go around shooting people at random, but unless someone is using exploits, or is damaging the game as a whole with their anti-social play, I don't see why they need to be banned.

*Starts 'Hug a Reaver' Campaign*

"Arghhh! My ear! My ear!"

 

[strooka]

wait... taking pills ... anyways ill find ways that you cant block me.... and yes it makes me fun to destroy u else a npc pirate will do it...

 

[natte hond]

I've been reading through the dev threads and the rules governing the different player "classes" seem to be getting very complicated.

My ideas run like this-
I presume all players have a reputation rating in each class that influences the RPG elements and event systems, and performing actions will increase or decrease that rating.

Pirates attack ships in order to steal their cargo, you get bigger profits if you don't have to buy it first right?
I read somewhere that if a ship dumps it's cargo and some else picks it up then it will be flagged as stolen. So why not make pirates traders in stolen goods? The piracy rating will go up with the amount sold or the credits earned.

You don't have destroy the victim. If you have a high enough rep you could intimidate him into dumping his load and running away.

The trader rating would go up for selling legal goods.

Smugglers are traders in illegal goods.

Slavers trade slaves.

Bounty hunters are slightly different.every fugitive has a price on his head which anyone with a clean rating can claim. The listed bounty is for the subject to be turned in alive. Killing him nets a lesser reward and destroying his ship but letting him escape pays the least.

Players who want to specialize in bounty hunting can buy a license which will give them access to agencies. An agency will list the highest paying jobs and for a slice of the bounty they will help the player find the subject and hand him over to the authorities.

Assassins are paid to kill. They get their jobs from direct chat with NPCs and players, or through whatever media is appropriate. Their rep goes up with every successful job.

Mercs and navy get missions from their HQ and their reps go up by firstly by completing the missions and secondly by destroying the enemy.

Players who attack other players and NPCs for no good reason, are psychopaths and should be kicked. I guess they could get a warning by being ruthlessly hunted by police and bounty hunters, but if they persist then ban them.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
Cheers

welcome to the forums.
to bad you don,t seem to agree after so much work has been done.
and Frontier Dev. is about to release the alpha to its backers.
who have a lots of time in it.

 

[Sentinel]

Hi all, I didn't mean to get anyone's back up. I just read stuff like forcing pirates to declare their intentions and the bounty hunters appeared to have more in common with assassins, and a few other things. I just got the impression that things might have been going a little askew or over the top. I've probably got it wrong so just ignore me.

I didn't mean to the game should be sanitized, it's a fighting game after all. It would just be nice if it could avoid some of the problems of other games.

Almost every multiplayer game I've played you get idiots that hang around the spawn points killing anyone who steps in. Dying 15 times in 15 minutes isn't much fun. It's also not much fun when you just get your team together and geared up and some script kiddy that's made himself indestructible jumps in brasses up half the team and then disconnects.

I have no problem with getting my ass blown off by pirates, or being chased down by police and bounty hunters, and generally having some fun, may the best ship win.
But I don't think it would be much fun to spend weeks building up a ship and bank account just to have it destroyed by a kid with a hacked ship who thinks its fun to blowup anything that leaves the station.

 

[Greeboski]

Hi all, I didn't mean to get anyone's back up. I just read stuff like forcing pirates to declare their intentions and the bounty hunters appeared to have more in common with assassins, and a few other things. I just got the impression that things might have been going a little askew or over the top. I've probably got it wrong so just ignore me.

I didn't mean to the game should be sanitized, it's a fighting game after all. It would just be nice if it could avoid some of the problems of other games.

Almost every multiplayer game I've played you get idiots that hang around the spawn points killing anyone who steps in. Dying 15 times in 15 minutes isn't much fun. It's also not much fun when you just get your team together and geared up and some script kiddy that's made himself indestructible jumps in brasses up half the team and then disconnects.

I have no problem with getting my ass blown off by pirates, or being chased down by police and bounty hunters, and generally having some fun, may the best ship win.
But I don't think it would be much fun to spend weeks building up a ship and bank account just to have it destroyed by a kid with a hacked ship who thinks its fun to blowup anything that leaves the station.

no , say and get the facts thrown back. coz if you dont ask you dont know

there are very large governments (3 of) . even if you only consider the space station (as long as you are not in an anarchy) it will take steps to keep law and order within its sphere of influance (read as solar system) . including ,but not limited to , sending police ships to intercept pirates/murderers. the more 'heat' the offender causes , the harsher the responce.

at this point we cant realy comment on 'hacked ships' as noone outside of FD has flown a ship. personaly i would like to see people that do that banned or relocated to the north pole or something

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Hi all, I didn't mean to get anyone's back up. I just read stuff like forcing pirates to declare their intentions and the bounty hunters appeared to have more in common with assassins, and a few other things. I just got the impression that things might have been going a little askew or over the top. I've probably got it wrong so just ignore me.

It is example of word meaning one thing to you, and completely other for game creator. I was surprised of "declaration" requirement, but then I watched Assassins Creed 4 Black Flag and read more about pirates - and....surprise, that's *exactly* how pirates have operated in all times.

Pirates who murder and burn everything? Those aren't pirates, but just psychopaths. Also sometimes in history those have been just bad guys who get paid by thirty party to do that (strategy in war).

Bounty hunters are little bit tricky. In Elite world when you are in space, there's no actual complete way to stop any person than killing his/her ship. He can issue white flag, but risk still exists. I think with walking expansion there's chance that BH game play become more varied and interesting than usual "killing ship" routine. We'll see.

I didn't mean to the game should be sanitized, it's a fighting game after all. It would just be nice if it could avoid some of the problems of other games.

Almost every multiplayer game I've played you get idiots that hang around the spawn points killing anyone who steps in. Dying 15 times in 15 minutes isn't much fun. It's also not much fun when you just get your team together and geared up and some script kiddy that's made himself indestructible jumps in brasses up half the team and then disconnects.

ED will be accessible space game, but not *that* accessible. FPS have quite simple rules and twitch tactics. Comparing to ED combat, while it's twitch based, you really won't deliver kills in seconds. Combat will be complex, and you will make decisions in matter of minutes. Also retreat will be valid strategy and there won't be shame of doing that.

I have no problem with getting my ass blown off by pirates, or being chased down by police and bounty hunters, and generally having some fun, may the best ship win.
But I don't think it would be much fun to spend weeks building up a ship and bank account just to have it destroyed by a kid with a hacked ship who thinks its fun to blowup anything that leaves the station.

Well, he will get his ass handed to him by police and station defenses in matter of seconds if he tries to do that. ED is not your classic MMO where NPC are incapable to defend safe zones.

 

[Sentinel]

Sorry haven't played black flag but I've read a few books. And running up the jolly Rodger was probably to gentlemanly thing to do and would give the victim a chance to surrender, but I dare say a prudent pirate might give a strong ship a good broadside before announcing who he was. Besides I don't think 17th century sailing ships ejected their cargo in convenient pods that could be scooped up.

It's a good idea to give the player/npc a chance to dump and run, but should you be forced use it? I wonder what graces the pirates of today use.

My understanding was that you'd have to declare in order for it to rate as a pirate attack and not a random attack. That's why I suggested the selling of stolen goods you wouldn't need to destroy the victim only make him dump.

As for sitting outside a station I remember years ago I had a mk 3 with all the upgrades a deadly rating and I wanted the elusive elite rating. Pirates were too thin on the ground so I did exactly that I sat outside a station and blasted a few trade ships then went to town on the dozens of vipers that came out. I can't remember if they got me or I jumped out but I was there for quite a while creating havoc never did get to elite.

But that was against AI in a single player game, so who really cares. Doing the same against players who might lose weeks of hard won credits is another thing entirely.

 

[Gelbrock]

Basic way to look at 'The Rules' possibly is to think of real life.


If you kill an innocent person, you get hunted by Police and sometimes others.

If you catch a badie..... you get a reward, a bounty. (not the choc bar)

If you trade well, you get rich.

If you trade in illegal items you 'may' get caught.

If you sit outside a station full of Police ships killing other ships..... your an idiot and will die quickly.



That's It.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

And running up the jolly Rodger was probably to gentlemanly thing to do and would give the victim a chance to surrender

It was also to strike fear into the hearts of the victim. If you believe you're going to die (based upon the pirates reputation) then you will most likely make it so - As the saying goes "the anticipation of death is worse than death itself"

 

[Novastar]

Sorry haven't played black flag but I've read a few books. And running up the jolly Rodger was probably to gentlemanly thing to do and would give the victim a chance to surrender

Stop and think about how it really went for a moment not just how hollywood portrays it.
Remember that many/most merchant sailors were pressganged (basically kidnapped and effectively a kind of slave) and many pirate ships were run on a nearly democratic basis complete with primitive health insurance and retirement funds!

Pirates were expert business men/women
the most profitable way to steal a ship/cargo is as follows
get insider info on ship+cargo+crew
sneak up on it when it's vulnerable
show the flag and offer the opposing crew (not officiers!) the following choice
A
fight and likely gain nothing personally and probably suffer a deadly wound
or
B
prompt surrender (perhaps with some officier murdering)
no fighting
freedom from press-gang
possible voluntary recuritment to pirate ranks
possible small share in the loot


i agree that this doesn't translate exactly to ED, just a quick history lesson.

 

[Novastar]

I've been reading through the dev threads and the rules governing the different player "classes" seem to be getting very complicated.............

I agree with you to a degree.
I (and others) argued againest some such rules in the DDF if you have a few spare weeks to read the archive.

3 points
Wait for the Beta. I am coinfident that Frontier will change rules if they are seen to not work in the Beta.

we need an official wiki with all the interconnected rules described in it
they often dont make sense unless the connections to other rules are understood.

I personally think that a root cause of a lot of issues in the rules is that it is actually impossible to kill another pilot (except in ironman mode) and there is a magically impossible insurance company that keeps buying people new ships regardless of expense.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The rules? What rules? (Just kidding)

 

[roryscarlett]

I've been reading through the dev threads and the rules governing the different player "classes" seem to be getting very complicated.

My ideas run like this-
I presume all players have a reputation rating in each class that influences the RPG elements and event systems, and performing actions will increase or decrease that rating.

Pirates attack ships in order to steal their cargo, you get bigger profits if you don't have to buy it first right?
I read somewhere that if a ship dumps it's cargo and some else picks it up then it will be flagged as stolen. So why not make pirates traders in stolen goods? The piracy rating will go up with the amount sold or the credits earned.

You don't have destroy the victim. If you have a high enough rep you could intimidate him into dumping his load and running away.

The trader rating would go up for selling legal goods.

Smugglers are traders in illegal goods.

Slavers trade slaves.

Bounty hunters are slightly different.every fugitive has a price on his head which anyone with a clean rating can claim. The listed bounty is for the subject to be turned in alive. Killing him nets a lesser reward and destroying his ship but letting him escape pays the least.

Players who want to specialize in bounty hunting can buy a license which will give them access to agencies. An agency will list the highest paying jobs and for a slice of the bounty they will help the player find the subject and hand him over to the authorities.

Assassins are paid to kill. They get their jobs from direct chat with NPCs and players, or through whatever media is appropriate. Their rep goes up with every successful job.

Mercs and navy get missions from their HQ and their reps go up by firstly by completing the missions and secondly by destroying the enemy.

Players who attack other players and NPCs for no good reason, are psychopaths and should be kicked. I guess they could get a warning by being ruthlessly hunted by police and bounty hunters, but if they persist then ban them.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
Cheers

I see the lines between certain roles to be very blurry around the edges. I've thought of this a bit like a primary colours wheel (sorry I haven't added an illustration). Remember from school you had a colour wheel showing the three primary colours Blue, Red and Yellow? Between Blue and red you had Purple. Between Yellow and Red you had Orange and between Blue and Yellow you had Green.

Well I see the roles a bit like that. Put Trader, Bounty-Hunter and Pirate in the wheel as the primary roles for example (I appreciate there are more roles, this is just an illustration).

Now between Trader and Pirate, you could have a Smuggler. He Trades in the illegal goods he purchases from Pirates. Between Bounty-Hunter and Pirate there could be a role where a person actively engages with Pirates and becomes friends purely to prey on them. Between Trader and Bounty-Hunter you would have someone who kills Pirates, scoops the discarded cargo and then sells it on! This is obviously not an exhaustive argument.

So my point here is that I think the roles are going to all blend together to a certain extent.

I can't see how we could play the game and stick to one role. For example I remember in FE2 that being a Bounty-Hunter happened pretty much by accident. You were cruising along minding your own business, then you were attacked, you defended yourself by destroying your attacker, and oh how lucky, he had a bounty. You weren't a Bounty-Hunter, more a Bounty-Lucky-I-found-One-By-Accident. This is actually a concern I have for ED which is a different matter.

If you had a scoop you grabbed any discarded goods and then traded those.

In FE2 you could never make enough money as a Bounty-Hunter. The bounties just weren't valuable enough. I remember the maximum I was ever awarded was around £400. Assassinations were in the 1000's but that technically isn't Bounty-Hunting.

So I don't think we should be too worried about the player roles too much

 

[Andrew Sayers]

I see the lines between certain roles to be very blurry around the edges. I've thought of this a bit like a primary colours wheel (sorry I haven't added an illustration). Remember from school you had a colour wheel showing the three primary colours Blue, Red and Yellow? Between Blue and red you had Purple. Between Yellow and Red you had Orange and between Blue and Yellow you had Green.

That's a very good way to describe it! Remember the roles are intended more as a developer construct than a guide for players. It lets them ask questions like "how would an explorer use device X" or "does Y create a balance issue between traders and pirates". There's nothing at all stopping you from fitting some passenger cabins in your smuggler ship, for example.

 

[Calico Jack]

Hi all, I didn't mean to get anyone's back up. I just read stuff like forcing pirates to declare their intentions and the bounty hunters appeared to have more in common with assassins, and a few other things. I just got the impression that things might have been going a little askew or over the top. I've probably got it wrong so just ignore me.

I didn't mean to the game should be sanitized, it's a fighting game after all. It would just be nice if it could avoid some of the problems of other games.

Hi Sentinel, apologies if it was me that came across like my back was up. I'm new to the forums too and just wanted to get involved!

I'm sure that FD will get player roles sorted in time. Personally, I think it is great that players can be judged in a competitive game by more than their kill count. Such as their ability to fulfill contracts etc...

 

[PacalB]

Hi Sentinel, apologies if it was me that came across like my back was up. I'm new to the forums too and just wanted to get involved!

I'm sure that FD will get player roles sorted in time. Personally, I think it is great that players can be judged in a competitive game by more than their kill count. Such as their ability to fulfill contracts etc...

Guys, just remember ... ED is meant to be savored, and like a good wine it takes time to appreciate all its complexities, all its intricate details. Take your time with those ED details, don't just try to gulp at them, you'll miss all those wonderful flavours if you do.

 

[Dr Wookie]

Guys, just remember ... ED is meant to be savored, and like a good wine it takes time to appreciate all its complexities, all its intricate details. Take your time with those ED details, don't just try to gulp at them, you'll miss all those wonderful flavours if you do.

Also remember that in E: D there are no defined classes, just suggested careers. Whatever you decide to do will impact your choice of ship and equipment, but if you fancy another role, you can always buy another ship !