Elite / Frontier The Space Game Control Debate!

[Fost]

ROLL VS YAW!

What do you think? 'Dogfight' style controls like the original Elite: pitch and roll or fps style controls that most space games since seem to be designed around: pitch yaw.

You could say support both, but I think the AI of enemies really needs to be designed around your control system (pitch-roll combat is a little more like jet flight sim dogfighting, and is a slower, precision shooting based affair, whereas pitch-yaw is more like a twitch game.)

I suppose the main issue with roll, is that it's not great for mouse control and that's what everyone wants these days. Although, ArcElite was brilliant with the mouse, it just had a really steep learning curve. It was a bit like learning mouse look in an fps for the first time.



I'm in the roll camp!

 

[Michael Brookes]

Personally it depends on the game in question. Although in a space combat simulation I would generally expect some sort of vectored thrust so both should be available - although their relative effectiveness would differ according to ship design.

Michael

 

[Fost]

in a space combat simulation I would generally expect some sort of vectored thrust so both should be available

I would definitely agree that if you were going for 'realism' then you could probably thrust in any direction equally as well as any other.

I sometimes think people pursue the goal of idealism over anything else though. Elite Vs Frontier is a good example; I enjoyed Frontier, which had more realistic movement, however for me, it paled in comparison to the fun I had in combat in good old vanilla Elite.

They aren't directly comparable I suppose - this has more to do with the velocity physics than roll vs yaw, but Frontier was more like a submarine sim, whereas elite was like first gen jet (Korean war period) sim dogfighting.


Anyway, all I'm saying is, 'real' does not necessarily equal 'fun'.

 

[Michael Brookes]

It's a fair point, I think the preference in control methods is also down to what people are used to. Old style dog fighting games used to be quite prevalent on home computers, so the pitch and roll mechanism was reasonably well known. These days FPS type games are more well known so that method is favoured.

Michael

 

[Fost]

These days FPS type games are more well known so that method is favoured.

That's exactly it - I think any developer would not likely support any method other than mouselook for a space sim these days, because then there's a good chance that a lot of PC users can just pick it up. I actually saw a recent video interview with one space sim developer on gamespot, where they were saying how great it was you could use a mouse and how the joystick was dead.

I completely respect that view - developers have to make money, it's just a bit sad for people like me who miss that old dogfighting feeling that Elite had (as long as you didn't just use the 'cheat' of flying away and shooting them with a rear laser!).

The obvious answer is to support both, but I don't think that works - the elite ships moved in a particular way that was great with pitch/roll, but with modern FPD twitch controls you'd just blow them away.

In any case, it's kind of moot - I'm sure Elite IV would follow on from the Frontier series in it's controls, and this would make sense for ease of use for the majority of modern PC players, I just wondered if I there was anyone else out there in my pitch/roll club

 

[Crayfish]

Its not just that controlling yaw with the mouse is more familiar to modern gamers, its really the only effective way to control a ship when its in a planet's atmosphere. I think its a pretty safe bet that Elite IV would include planetary landings, imagine trying to land with only roll and pitch control.

 

[Steve O B Have]

Personally I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Yaw can still be an integral part of flight control, as it always has been in flight sims.

Anyone that has flown a plane should know that in general you bank and then pitch up to enter into a turn, yaw is used to keep the aircraft in a upwards attitude. A turn using yaw only is a very inefficient way of doing things.

Making a call like - YAW or ROLL doesn't make sense to me.

There has been a version of Elite (I think in the Archimedes version) where yaw boosters were an purchase option. Personally I think it added a little more control to the game and cartainly made things like docking and combat a little easier.

 

[Fost]

its really the only effective way to control a ship when its in a planet's atmosphere.

It's funny you say that, because without roll, how do you align yourself to the horizon?

Personally I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Yaw can still be an integral part of flight control, as it always has been in flight sims.

Yes, that's a really clever point I hadn't considered. Although the 'feel' there is slightly different. Roll is your primary left-right control on the joystick, and yaw has a much more limited effect for nudging you about. Most new space sims put yaw as primary left-right and with equal power to the pitch control. For the obvious reason that it's more like an FPS. That's the thing for me - it ceases to be a game where you dogfight, and more a game like 'twitch' combat, like an FPS. I'm not saying that's worse, just that it's sad (for me) that nobody makes the old dogfighting combat space sims anymore.

There has been a version of Elite (I think in the Archimedes version) where yaw boosters were an purchase option.

Again, a great point - ArcElite was the King of the original Elite series, and the control scheme (once you got used to it) was great (Pitch/roll on mouse with optionally purchased yaw boosters)

 

[Steve O B Have]

Yes, that's a really clever point I hadn't considered. Although the 'feel' there is slightly different. Roll is your primary left-right control on the joystick, and yaw has a much more limited effect for nudging you about. Most new space sims put yaw as primary left-right and with equal power to the pitch control. For the obvious reason that it's more like an FPS. That's the thing for me - it ceases to be a game where you dogfight, and more a game like 'twitch' combat, like an FPS. I'm not saying that's worse, just that it's sad (for me) that nobody makes the old dogfighting combat space sims anymore.

Agreed, a control system based on something similar to a flight sim seems more attractive to me.

 

[uh101]

Agreed, a control system based on something similar to a flight sim seems more attractive to me.

I agree fully!

 

[imski]

I think it's down to the fact that originally games with the "roll" style had to be either totally keyboard or joystick, with the joystick being the best option, but try telling some people that to play their £35-45 game you need to spend another £30 on a stick, and see your sales go to games that can be played with the mouse that came with the PC.

 

[Marcus_UK]

Space is a big old place. You have to have pitch and roll in my opinion. I prefered the physics of FE and FFE but I get what you mean regarding space battles.


I had some of my best dogfights just after takeoff and in the gravity of a planet in basic craft.

 

[Mike]

I think it'd be cooler if different ships handled differently or if the game allowed you install new flight control packages so you can change a yaw ship to a roll ship.

 

[Fost]

I think it'd be cooler if different ships handled differently or if the game allowed you install new flight control packages so you can change a yaw ship to a roll ship.

I think that's an idea that sounds cool on paper, but might not work in practice. Still, it could be protoyped. I would think changing control schemes between ships might put off you average user, although more hardcore people might really like that. The issue I see is enemy AI - if you play original Elite, the ships behave in a certain way that is slower and more fun to dogfight against with pitch/roll. If you added in mouselook style combat with that AI, you'd have no trouble sticking your crosshair on the target and annihilating them. Recent space sims tend to have much faster enemies and the game works like FPS style twitch gameplay.

I suppose that's what everyone wants though, and I certainly don't mind it.

 

[Mike]

Personally I got no entertainment flying or fighting in frontier.. i found the whole thing fustrating. In saying that, I did like the way it made me want to avoid combat, so I'd run away a lot. No other space games made me do that.

 

[Hudson]

Is it bad that Elite 4 breaks the mould of current space sims and goes pitch/roll only? Like Elite? The dog fighting in Elite was good fun.

Having four weapons on your ship (front, rear, and sides) helped with the lack of yaw too. Lining up my side and rear weapons on the bad guys was a technique I used alot on the Amiga version.

I don't really want to see dogfights like those in Frontier. It might have been realistic but it was more like jousting!


Cheers!
Hudson

 

[Fost]

Is it bad that Elite 4 breaks the mould of current space sims and goes pitch/roll only? Like Elite? The dog fighting in Elite was good fun.

I guess the problem is that people like me - who loved the pitch/roll combat, don't have a massive problem with pitch/yaw mouselook controls. It's not like they are bad per se, just that nobody does the old pitch/roll stuff which I miss. Combine that with the fact that 98% of current PC gamers mainly play FPSs and don't even know what a joystick looks like, and it's probably financial suicide to use pitch/roll, since most people won't be able to pick it up in an instant.

Whatever happened to needing to read a telephone directory sized manual to learn how to play a game!

 

[Hudson]

I don't have a problem with Pitch/Yaw either. I rock at FPS games!
BF2 is a fine example despite some of its flaws.

I guess it would turn out a lot like Freelancer if it used pitch and yaw with a mouse. That was OK but I'd still like to see Elite 4 stay with Elite controls but with some tweaks.

I had a couple of ideas :-
a) Primary control is Pitch/Roll.
b) You could Yaw from side to side but the ship will fly straight while not facing forward. (Snaps back to forward)
c) You could Mouse-look at any time (ship not rotate) and still be able to Pitch & Roll.


Or just make them fly like a jet fighter in a flight simulator while in a planets atmosphere, and then lose the gravity effects in space (obviously).
Simple, and you guarantee dogfighting will be intense. Newton can take a break this time around.


Meh...just some thoughts.

Guess we'll find out in a few years!


Cheers!
Hudson

 

[Marcus_UK]

I don't have a problem with Pitch/Yaw either. I rock at FPS games!
BF2 is a fine example despite some of its flaws.

I guess it would turn out a lot like Freelancer if it used pitch and yaw with a mouse. That was OK but I'd still like to see Elite 4 stay with Elite controls but with some tweaks.

I had a couple of ideas :-
a) Primary control is Pitch/Roll.
b) You could Yaw from side to side but the ship will fly straight while not facing forward. (Snaps back to forward)
c) You could Mouse-look at any time (ship not rotate) and still be able to Pitch & Roll.


Or just make them fly like a jet fighter in a flight simulator while in a planets atmosphere, and then lose the gravity effects in space (obviously).
Simple, and you guarantee dogfighting will be intense. Newton can take a break this time around.


Meh...just some thoughts.

Guess we'll find out in a few years!


Cheers!
Hudson

BF2 eh you'll have to PM me your user name and perhaps I'll drag you on to our clan server for a couple of rounds.....

Back to Elite talk now.....

I love the dogfighting element that Elite had back in the day. Many a time had I lost an enemy while dogfighting, only for them to fire at me from behind and give away their position.

Sometimes I managed to get them back and finish the job sometimes I didn't.

You would also have to take into consideration the differences in the ship sizes. In FE the Panther while having sheilds and the ability to take out a large ship with a single shot with the plasma accelorator it couldn't turn easily. In a battle between that ship and say the eagle the eagle could run rings around it put a big enough gun on that eagle and you could do the job. Yes the panther will have the turrets, but you try to nail an eagle that can follow you from one angle and then drop above and below those angles with relative ease not to mention accellerate away far quicker than you and stop quicker than you.

Went on a bit there didn't I

 

[Hudson]

BF2 eh you'll have to PM me your user name and perhaps I'll drag you on to our clan server for a couple of rounds.....

Oh really?? I think the lag might do me in since I'd be playing from Australia.
Maybe 1 round on your clan server. One round on ours? Heheheee
www.clan-botm.com



Yes, this Elite thing.....I hear what you're saying re the Panther/Eagle situation. Balancing ships is just as important as balancing classes in BF2, sometimes it takes a while to get it right!

Man I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Frontier. They must be having some great arguments over ideas/designs/ships/weapons..everything! Or maybe DB just walks in and says "the Panther will have the strongest shields in the game, it'll be the slowest, it'll have the biggest guns, and a nice finnicky tail fin design...now code it" and then walks away again with a wry smile.



Cheers!
H