Update The Tri-Poll Ends

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Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello backers and promoters, debaters and voters!

The Tri-Poll has run its course, and will be closing down momentarily. I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to vote and discuss this challenging issue; believe it or not, the results we get, however anecdotal, help us lots as we work through the design knots in the office!

An observation or two on the results:

As I said when I posted the polls, this was a fact finding mission, not a statement of intent.

So for those of you who may be worrying that after looking at the results we’re going to make Eve Online version 2, please don’t, because we’re not. Eve is a wonderful game with a focused remit concerning player versus player action, and kudos to them for making a kick-ass game. But as far as we’re concerned, Elite: Dangerous must provide an equally compelling single player experience as multiplayer.

However, it's fair to say that in all three polls the single largest vote block went to a full on player-versus-player solution - just over half of all the votes. It's clear that there's a strong appetite for this then, and it's something we're taking very seriously. We want to provide mechanics that specifically allow interesting and exciting multiplayer gameplay.

I think one of the most contentious points that has come up is the notion of splitting the user base; I suspect that some portion of votes were spent with this point being prime. There has been much debate about one side or the other fearing that their preferred style of play will be harmed by the needs of their counterparts.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but what I will say is this: we don't want to enforce a particular style of play. We want the opposite in fact; this game should be about everyone enjoying the game playing it how they want to.

So we're going to be weighing up very carefully the pros and cons of mechanics with this point foremost in our minds. For what it's worth, my take at the moment is that if in the end it starts coming down to further splits in the user base versus losing the interest of chunks of the potential player base, I'll favour splitting.

On the subject of posting in the poll (and in the forums in general): I love the passion that people have for this game, it's amazing (and frankly, quite terrifying - but in a good way!)

However, I want to ask that you remain courteous and pleasant in your responses. There is simply never the need for insults of any kind on any of our forums, period. In fact, all it really does is get my back up, so it's very counter-productive if you're trying to persuade me of a particular point of view.

To sum up, thanks again for all the support! Nothing is set in stone on this issue, but you've given us a whole load of additional information to chew over, which is greatly appreciated!
 
So we're going to be weighing up very carefully the pros and cons of mechanics with this point foremost in our minds. For what it's worth, my take at the moment is that if in the end it starts coming down to further splits in the user base versus losing the interest of chunks of the potential player base, I'll favour splitting.

I think the issue is that (at the extremes at least) one set of people say they won't play if there's no split, and the other group say they won't play if there is a split. Probably you'll have to accept that whatever choice you make, you can't please everyone.

Thankfully, I sit somewhere in the middle, and would be happy playing solo too - so I'm fairly relaxed.
 
I think one of the most contentious points that has come up is the notion of splitting the user base; I suspect that some portion of votes were spent with this point being prime. There has been much debate about one side or the other fearing that their preferred style of play will be harmed by the needs of their counterparts.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but what I will say is this: we don't want to enforce a particular style of play. We want the opposite in fact; this game should be about everyone enjoying the game playing it how they want to.

This is all I needed to hear. Thanks, and good luck!
 
In the vastness and coldness of the galaxy, I have too scared to play solo. I feel a great emptiness, surrounded by NPC, and I want to scream in the icy vastness. I have the impression that everyone is dead and there are only machines and computers. There is no real life as in real life. I want to see the galaxy, teeming with life and dynamism, for me to feel less alone.
 
Good Luck Commander

I think that there is a lot of fear of unknown and preconceptions about how things will happen. Certainly the EVE experience seems to be hanging over us like a hanging shadowy thing.
Personally never played it and no intention to ever change that.

The common ground would seem that people are concerned that 'descision X' would impact on them and the way they want to play their game. If you can allay those fears in your communications, all will be fine. Good luck with that.

You will lose some, it is inevitable it would seem, but I think the majority are in it for the long haul.

Don't need to worry about me. As long as the trolls are caged, I will be there anyway. Pew Pew Pew.
 
Thanks Sandro,

As a vociferous supporter of everyone in the same universe, I'm hoping that you guys at FD can come up with game mechanisms that prevent or minimise the type of play that puts many people off PvP altogether.

I very much want to play with, around, and against other players. My fear is that by creating a PvP and PvE split, the very nature of that split means that the PvP part becomes the thing that puts people off.

Elite has broken the mould of gameplay before, I'm hoping ED can do it again for multiplayer.
 
Thanks for the Tri-Poll, I enjoyed the community's opinions and passions!

I hope we get more of the same soon!
 
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Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Patrick_68000!

Don't worry too much. Considering the time and effort we are putting into multiplayer, we are going to make every effort to get people to try playing together whenever possible. Anything less would be a silly.

Hello Majere!

Agreed, it's pretty much impossible to please everyone at the best of times, and the divide in this case is fairly fundamental. But hey, that's not going to stop us trying our hardest!

I can't promise the perfect solution, but we are looking at all the options in order to make this game as fun, exciting and as cool as we can, and that includes using the forums as an information resource for what kinds of things might make it better.
 
On the subject of posting in the poll (and in the forums in general): I love the passion that people have for this game, it's amazing (and frankly, quite terrifying - but in a good way!)

heheh :smilie:

Hey Sandro, we got faith in you guys that game you lot are creating is going to be ... nothing ... less ... than ... epic! So please, just keep doing what you are doing, we'll all be here backing you guys 100%. A BIG thanks to all the dev team there for the great work they've done so far. :D
 
Hi Sandro, thank you for looking at so many views, wishes and arguments :)

When you speak of splitting the user base, do you mean a separation only in the options a player chooses when they roll a commander (e.g. Ironman/Normal mode, pv-all/pve-only mode), or do you mean separate background simulations on top of that, i.e. diverging universes?
 

Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Cathy!

At all costs we want to keep the background meta game running on a single track.

Even if we have different groups of players operating under different rules sets I'm confident that we can aggregate their actions for affecting the meta game simulation.

It's also worth considering that the idea behind this background simulation isn't primarily to allow players or groups of players to "control" or "own" the game world. Its prime directive is to create logical, consistent and interesting consequences for player actions, to try to sell the dream that it's a real place.

That's not to say that you shouldn't be looking for ways to nudge events your way whenever possible, of course, but the more explicit successes are likely to occur at a local level.

To be clear though, we haven't come to a solid conclusion on this matter yet, and as always, we want to support and encourage the largest amount of players to operate in the same world as possible.
 
Hi Sandro,

It is great to know that our concerns are being listened to. As a player who traditionally avoids multiplayer games I am interested in the efforts you are making to maximise my positive gaming experience.

I have described myself in the past as a virtual tourist. The gaming experience I enjoy the most is being immersed in an interesting and believable environment. Immature comments about my mother, being griefed into rage quitting or getting my posterior repeatedly handed to me by a player with superior equipment or madskillz is not how I want to spend my precious game time.

I can see from your various communications with us that you share my concerns on these negative aspects of multiplayer gaming so I look forward to getting my hands on the alpha and betas to give them a whirl just as soon as they are ready and I and Commander Shepard (who is definitely a woman btw) have finished saving the other galaxy.
 
Hello Patrick_68000!

Don't worry too much. Considering the time and effort we are putting into multiplayer, we are going to make every effort to get people to try playing together whenever possible. Anything less would be a silly.

Hello Sandro ! Thank you for your good words. It is good to see that you put a lot of resources on the multi-player mode. David has often said that the multiplayer mode in Elite, changes everything. I remember when I was playing Frontier Elite II. Often, I said to myself "if this game would be like a real universe with real people, it would be just fantastic." It was unrealistic at this time and only of the dream. Of course, I also really like solo mode (Frontier Elite II), but what a great adventure, to have a real universe with a multitude of different behaviors (pleasant or unpleasant, as in life).
 
The Tri-Poll has run its course, and will be closing down momentarily. I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to vote and discuss this challenging issue; believe it or not, the results we get, however anecdotal, help us lots as we work through the design knots in the office!


My comment @Frontier Design Team:

It wasn´t so much a heated debate, it appeared to me rather as a thread largely dominated by people out of the smallest poll groups being extremely vocal about their fear they might lose the "single player co-op experience".

Not looking at the poll results, one might get the impression the debate would have been in favor for "groups", "PvE-mode" or even in favor for splitting the playerbase.

Yet by clicking on the numbers I saw that the most active posters in the poll thread- Digital Duck, Liqua voted in the 3.47% poll group and Nick C, Serpentstar, Darkwalker and others voted in the 18.32% poll group.

So the whole debate was certainly not reflecting the actual poll results and what the majority wants.

How much weight you put on the opinion of the smallest groups, and how catering to them influences and possible scares away the majority groups is your decision at the end.

Furthermore, what I have observed is that many of them used the term "PVP" and gave the false impression that this would be some kind of "PvE vs. PvP" discussion - it is not.

It always was a PvAll (PvPvE) vs. PvE-only discussion.

Every PvAll player is also a PvE player.

There is no PvP-only mode.

Removing one P or one E from the equation does not work, I brought up removing NPCs as an example - if ~20% would want that, would you give them an option to remove NPCs too? Probably not. Because both ideas of removing either players or NPCs from the online universe are equally strange, even more so in a sandbox. As far as I know ED is not supposed to be WoW and certainly not a themepark online game. It is a sandbox online game. This is what has been advertised on Kickstarter.

If found this quote a little strange though:

So for those of you who may be worrying that after looking at the results we’re going to make Eve Online version 2, please don’t, because we’re not. Eve is a wonderful game with a focused remit concerning player versus player action, and kudos to them for making a kick-ass game. But as far as we’re concerned, Elite: Dangerous must provide an equally compelling single player experience as multiplayer.

Why you jump on the generalization bandwagon of the people using the term "EvE 2" as a kind of red flag argument is really beyond me.

What aspect of EvE would make ED to EVE 2 ? Territories where PvAll can happen? EvE is a sandbox space game too, different combat model, but the comparison is very valid since both let you fly around with space ships, mine, trade, explore and dock at space stations.


So what exactly is wrong about an EvE concept but improving it with REAL skill based twitch / joystick combat?

If you know EvE, you also know that no one will bother you in Highsec unless they don´t want to get blown up by police within seconds before they can even destroy you.
But doing something silly like flying out with a noob ship to Nullsec, or if you go for PvP and you are under geared/undertrained, you stand zero chance. This is why EvE can feel "unfair", it is gear and time/skilltraining based and almost impossible for beginners to catch up.

But this certainly does not need to happen in ED, if you have a similiar approach with ships, like Chris Roberts and the Rock/Paper/Scissor idea of no ship or weapon being completely overpowered. You still have to be a good pilot and "winning" is not a question of gear, neither in SC nor ED (so I hope).

Yes in this regard, ED should not be "EvE 2" - in all others, the similiarities and comparison to an "EvE 2" are obvious.

So, what exactly are the problems PvE-only players would cause to others and what do they want?

  • A PvE-only player is PvE player who wants to completely erase one aspect of online gameplay and demands a discrimination between NPC robot intelligence and human intelligence.
  • Also, a PvE-only player demands different rulesets in ONE unified universe to cater to his playstyle, although sandboxes usually have one global ruleset, or territory rulesets like EvE.
  • A PvE-only player, at least the mentioned posters out of the 3.47% group, are not even willing to accept a system with rulesets depending on territories (policed/low-policed/lawless systems, they demand to go everywhere, not sticking to the areas given to them where they are safeguarded.
    (Despite the fact that we have more star systems than anyone could ever visit in a lifetime)
  • A PvE-only player demands to influence the full universe in the same way like the ones taking higher risks in a PvAll environment do.


-> All of the above demands end up being unfair to the PvAll players, unbalancing the sandbox events and economy.

  • A PvE-only player demands to influence the sandbox economy in the same way like the ones taking higher risks in a PvAll environment.

-> Again, unfair to the PvAll players, unbalancing the sandbox event outcomes.

  • A PvE-only player demands to earn the same amount of credits which he can use to buy ships, ship upgrades, goods, weapons - things which they aquire more easily than the PvAll player taking higher risks.

-> A blatant exploit, as well as tempting PvAll players to take the path of least resistance to use the exploit too, ruining their own experience in the long run.

  • A PvE-only (or even a PvAll player who was too tempted by the path of least resistance) player possibly even thinks about switching between groups occasionally when he feels strong/skilled enough to take down other real players.
  • Other real players, who maybe started out in a straight forward honest way in the PvAll universe and might not have progressed as far with ships and weaponry, due to dying more often, having the harder, though unrewarded path, compared to the PvE-only player.

-> Exploiting game mechanics in an unintended way, plus an immersion breaking way, plus tempting the PvAll player to go "least resistance mode"

  • A PvE-only player very vocally demands his gameplay mode (evidence above, despite majority preference), and tries to force the option into the game, although he has PvE-only perfectly represented in single player offline mode.


Now, what is really missing, since they already have PvE-only in single player offline? What needs to be added to not break any Kickstarter promises?


  • Simple: Some form of online group co-op with others, so PvE-only players can play together. This is what they want.
  • This is something which could be accomplished by a LAN mode, online Peer-to-Peer.
  • Solving most problems by locking in character belongings, ships, goods and credits to that mode, which should be considered "single player offline mode with online group co-op option".
    • Overall incentivise PvAll people who like PvAll to stay in the PvAll online universe, plus, incentivise PvE people to at least try out the PvAll experience. Do this by giving higher credit rewards to PvAll mode and offering rewards and gameplay aspects which are unique to the PvAll mode. You want your majority to continue to play the mode they want, not going the way of least resistance, right? You want to give everyone what was promised, but also incentivise that people play the best, most realistic mode available, right?
  • Furthermore, no actions PvE-only players take in this co-op mode, shall influence the persistant online universe sandbox. They should be able to download the most current client updates of the latest version from the universe server. But the datastream must only work in one way. From universe server to PvE-only player client, as intended for the single player offline version, but not the other way around. PvE-only mode shall not influence the online universe.
  • Why no influence for PvE-only players? Because a sandbox universe and all outcomings need to be decided by actual player conflict, as well as PvEvP (Player vs. NPCs vs. Player) combat alliance warfare and NPC blockades, fight over ressources, social interaction and how good groups and guilds cooperate and react to each other and NPC.

So, why would anyone complain about this model? Isn´t this exactly what the PvE-only players want? Not facing real players with a chance to be shot at?

Since in their view, most PvAllers are griefers and gankers, only paying the tiny price of "loss of sandbox influence" and "less credits for less risk" is acceptable to give them the benefit to be completely safe from "griefers and gankers".

Why on the other hand risking the whole universe being inconsistent, with exploits and unfairness to the PvAll player majority, even tempting the PvAll player to switch to the mode of "least resistance" solo-online or private group mode? Tempting people to go into playstyles they never intended to play? Go solo group for cargo runs, go Allgroup when you have nothing to lose and feel "ok" with player combat?

Why breaking the immersion of the majority by giving an option to opt out of "dangerous" real player situations on the fly? Leading further to discussions about "risk vs. reward" which will end up in even more work for separate rewarding schemes and further splitting up the playerbase in this vast universe?

Do you good people at Frontier really want to open the box of Pandora?

Conclusion:

At the end this game can only be a real success if you favor one playstyle over the other and draw clear lines. Will you try to please everybody and only accomplish a lukewarm hybrid solution with a plethora of problems ahead, or will you go a straight way and make a solid decision how this game is supposed to be played and create the realistic, consistent sandbox the majority wants?

Choose wisely, and let me conclude with your own designer´s words :

MikeEvans said:
Mike Evans

In all seriousness though the path of least resistance is extremely bad from a game play experience point of view. It's all very well saying you should be able to play how you want and have option to make your experience easier but by just having such a choice people will be compelled to use it and ruin the experience they could have had if there was no such choice available to them.
[....]
Secondly this is a multiplayer game and fairness is extremely important and it does become an issue if someone else you interact with can have an unfair advantage over you because they selected some option you didn't. People will be compelled to also select that option despite their wishes because it'll be the only way to compete on a level playing field. Being able to advance further in the game because you can play it for longer in the day is not an unfair advantage in this case and isn't an issue.

^
/signed.


Greetings
FromHell
 
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I really wish that EVERYONE, from ALL sides, could have left this thread to say "thanks" to the devs for asking the questions and responding to OUR views rather than prolonging the debate with more regurgitation of the same old arguments. :(

I guess it was too much to hope for. :p
 
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