Update The Tri-Poll Ends

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I'm not going to respond to another one of your posts unless it's a sensible post. I won't hold my breath.

I´d rather prefer you wouldn´t respond specifically to me at all, unless you finally bring something to the table to debate about. Like, maybe... arguments? Well, I won´t hold my breath either.

Wow, it's like you're not even readi- oh, of course not.
Look, you're boring me.

Hint: cryptic snarky remarks don´t count.

Check this out mate, some help from Wikipedia on coherent arguments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument


Other people have strong requirements about not being shot at.

Maybe they should rethink if an online multiplayer game about space ships loaded with nuclear weapons and/or lasers is really the right toy for them. I understand their requirement though, but as a member of the majority group, I´d prefer that I´m not affected by other playstyles with exploits, missing risk vs. reward model and an optional "path of least resistance mode" at hand, to go solo/private group when facing trouble in the verse.

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@Fromhell: I'm broadly in agreement with you on balance and fairness being important, and the potential imbalancing effect of having different rules for different players in the same dynamic universe. Less so on the confrontational approach. But we've already had this discussion (to death) and the devs thanked us and said they'll take our feedback on board.

I've voiced my own feelings on the issue and I'm content that I've been listened to. Now is perhaps the time for us to let the devs take on board what we've told them and wait for them to come back to us once they've made some progress.

I'm not 'telling' you what to do, but perhaps it's time to relax, wait and see rather than continuing an argument that isn't really going anywhere new.

I have some Arcturian Spaceweed somewhere...
 
The point being that if you're with friends in a private group you're not going to be shot at by other players.

Actually Duck, that is one of the ways to specifically do PVP. Or that is how I read the group rules. It can allow you to combat other players and not get bounties or police actions or whatever.

I could be wrong though, the grouping comments were so last week, much like this ongoing (and now thoroughly beaten, dried and ground into dust) reply to the now closed poll...
 
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That's Alliances, not groups. :smilie:

I stand corrected, and I found it:

Alliances allow players to indicate trust between themselves so they:

Can freely jettison and pick up cargo between themselves
Can fire upon each other without criminal implications

BTW, Fromhell, I believe you missed a key point about the groups:

If a person earns a bounty their ignore list and friend preferences won’t affect matchmaking, and bounty hunters will still be able to encounter the player, even if the bounty hunter is on the player’s ignore list.

So, be a bounty hunter and have all the PVP you want.
 
@Fromhell: I'm broadly in agreement with you on balance and fairness being important, and the potential imbalancing effect of having different rules for different players in the same dynamic universe.

I'm broadly in agreement with this too. What I'm not in agreement with is the fact that Fromhell (and not you, as we've established) is saying that's an argument against having a PvE group, and apparently such a strong one that the existence of such a group will somehow restrict his game, and bring upon doom among all those who dare set eyes upon it.

This is why I was overly confrontational with you before (still sorry about that, by the way).


Oh, and Fromhell: Look up a few posts if you want to see my arguments. They're relatively simple, because that's all they need to be.

Hint: cryptic snarky remarks don´t count.

Okay, let me be less cryptic:

**** off, ****.

I'm done here. Honestly don't care which one of us you ban at this point, because I'm not sticking to a forum where this level of trolling is deemed permissible.
 
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Other people have strong requirements about not being shot at. For example, if you're a stressed young mother that needs some contact with adults, then you might be keen to meet new people and have fun with them while showing off bright colours to your toddler (and maybe sneaking some education in on the side). But if you're a toddler, learning to equate gaming with your mother crying because of "people on the Internet" isn't such a great lesson.

Eat hot laser death mum and baby scum!!! Mwuahahah! :mad:

Sorry, don't know what came over me there.

I know it's a bit of a red flag to a bull thing to say, but at what point does catering to everyone's play style turn Elite: Dangerous into Elite: Cute and Fluffy?

It sounds like a real-life playgroup would be far more up Mum's street than a space combat simulation where being shot at is to be expected, death awaits among the stars and where no one can hear you scream. ;)

disclaimer: not suggesting that mums shouldn't be able to play, or that easier modes shouldn't exist at all, but how far do we push the notion of all-inclusive before we lose sight of what the game actually is?

:braces for impact:
 
I think this speaks to an important demographic split:

Some people have no interest in shooting or being shot at, but are willing to put up with a limited amount of noise in order to meet interesting people. For example, I wouldn't mind meeting you in deep space and having a tense moment before realising we're both nice guys, so long as more than 90% and less than 100% of guys I meet are indeed nice. But when I can reasonably expect people will want to kill me (even if perfectly legitimately), or if there's no risk at all, then the game becomes a poor use of my time.

+1

I remember playing a game called Ultima Online. It was probably the very first mmorpg - released back in 1997. The game was a true sandbox. The only safe places in the game were in the towns. Once you set foot outside of town you where fair game and could be killed at any time.

What happened was the game became a magnet for all sorts of cyber-psychos who mercilessly butchered players, new and old, with little consequence. But early on what this did was cause people to band together and begin working in teams. A real community spirit was born. If player killers were nearby a band of anti-player killers (bounty hunters) would go out and fight them or chase them away. Communities sprang up and stuck together for protection.

However the player killers numbers grew since at the time there wasn't adequate negative consequences for playing a 'bad guy' in the game. Eventually the PK's got out of hand and people quit en-mass.

The developers then decided to split the world in two and have one world with the original rule set and one with new rules - effectively eliminating non consensual PvP altogether.

I was one of the people who called for a new rule set - one where I could play the game in peace without worrying about whether the guy behind me was trying to steal from me or kill me. But within a few months I regretted what the developers had done, and I wasn't alone. What had happened is all risk had been taken from my gameworld and it became a shadow of what it once was. I hated dying, but I also missed that adrenalin rush or that tentative moment when I met someone new in-game for the first time.

On the non PvP server the social aspects broke down. No one needed anyone else anymore to survive. It became a glorified chat room game where people would get filthy rich by resource gathering with no worry of losing anything. It was a server of all reward and zero risk.

On the old ruleset server the lands became deserted too. The game was never the same again the day the developers split the playerbase. I still read the old forums to this day, and nearly everyone agrees (PvEs and PvPs alike) that the game should never have had such a drastic change made to it like it did in the summer of 2000.

It was the consequences of mercilessly killing other players that needed to be better though out and implemented, not splitting the player base and having different rulesets that was the mistake with hindsight.

So how does this relate to Elite?...
As far as Elite Dangerous goes I can't help feeling some people are forgetting just how big this gameworld will be. Back in Ultima Online everyone was squeezed onto a relatively small world so encounters where inevitable. In ED it won't be like that.

If you don't want other players to attack you there must be a million systems you can play within where you won't ever see another living soul.

I don't know if Frontier Developments know how many players this game will attract but I highly doubt it'll be to a point where an individual high-sec Core system will have more than a handful of human players online at the same time within it. And even then each system is an almost unlimited size that interactions will be uncommon. There are no EvE-type choke points. No jump gates. And stations will be secure areas with police protection.

In a gameworld of this size and with limitless possibilities to avoid traffic, the only time interactions between humans will occur is if they purposely go looking for each other. So I don't buy the 'I only want to PvE' argument.

I don't think different rulesets or servers are the answer. And I don't think the number of players playing ED will warrant more than one gameworld. IMHO it should follow EvE Online's thinking in regards to that... 1 gameword for all. That gameworld will surely be big enough to allow all playstyles?
 
@Fromhell: I'm broadly in agreement with you on balance and fairness being important, and the potential imbalancing effect of having different rules for different players in the same dynamic universe.
Yeah, I agree with your concerns too, we both seem to have some thoughts about the implications of the current design philosophy.

Less so on the confrontational approach. But we've already had this discussion (to death) and the devs thanked us and said they'll take our feedback on board.
I have more than enough evidence in this and the other thread of getting bullied and ridiculed by the minority voters group, simply because of voicing concerns, listing them and offering some game system ideas. Confrontation was inevitable, especially since almost none of them actually presented specific arguments but saying "you are wrong / it doesn´t affect you / it´s your own problem".


I've voiced my own feelings on the issue and I'm content that I've been listened to.

I still have the notion the main design philosophy is going to be "Let´s just not ..... anyone off" no matter how small the group is, especially if it´s a very vocal group.

Now is perhaps the time for us to let the devs take on board what we've told them and wait for them to come back to us once they've made some progress.
I´d actually like to see some concepts in the DDF e.g.
- Risk vs. Reward in Elite Dangerous
- Incentivising risky online mode gameplay in Elite Dangerous
- Prevention of exploits by using grouping mechanics in unintended ways
- The importance of not breaking immersion
- Implications of having solo/private groups influencing the online sandbox
-
...

I'm not 'telling' you what to do, but perhaps it's time to relax, wait and see rather than continuing an argument that isn't really going anywhere new.

I have some Arcturian Spaceweed somewhere...

hmmm spaceweed.. :cool:

Relax. Don't take the bait.

No problem, I won´t.
 
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Yeah, I agree with your concerns too, we both seem to have some thoughts about the implications of the current design philosophy.

But I'm not advocating ignoring a section of the community which wants an 'easier' (depending on your interpretation) game either. I'd like to see everyone catered to, as much as is practical without losing sight of what the game is or compromising the experience for others.

Please clarify this for me. Are you saying "No PvE" whatsoever?

I'm not - as long as it's balanced, I'm happy to laugh at them and call them cowards and milktoasts. (kidding... mostly)


I have more than enough evidence in this and the other thread of getting bullied...

I had some of the same experience myself (ironically partly because some people suspected I might be you), but...

Confrontation was inevitable...

To a degree perhaps, but going overboard into greater and greater levels of heated unpleasantness isn't.

As I said, I had similar problems, but by remaining calm, retaining a sense of humour, and talking about it without getting hysterical, I managed to avoid any long-lasting unpleasantness and even reach an accord of sorts.

"It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it..."

I still have the notion the main design philosophy is going to be "Let´s just not p*** anyone off" no matter how small the group is, especially if it´s a very vocal group.

Only a notion. You don't know that for sure. Like I said, relax, wait and see and if the next dev diary/set of proposals don't ease your mind, feel free to stamp your feet and scream bloody murder again. Or, you know, just discuss it calmly.

I´d actually like to see some concepts in the DDF e.g.

Give them a chance. The polls only just closed.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
Ok the thread is being closed for tonight to give everyone a chance to cool off and for the frontier moderating team to review it in detail.

Please don't continue this in another thread.
 
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