The truth about free updates and frustration (including opinions)

There is one arugment that is being repeated over and over and it never fails to provoke strong protest. What I am talking about is this: "But all the free updates...!"

This is a repost but I don't think a quick reminder hurts anyone and maybe, just maybe, even if you're someone who doesn't agree with a single thing I'm saying, maybe after reading this at least you understand "the other side" a little bit better. (And yes, I say this with some irony because "we" vs. "them" isn't really a good approach for discussions in the community because things tend to get personal.)

So let's get this straight: The things they cleverly brand 'free updates' are not gifts!

According to Frontier they did in fact not deliver a complete game (whatever that means to you): Almost a year back the devs said they're not done with the game, the development continues and there will be updates. It only made sense, because there were a whole lot of things still lacking and I'm not sure so many people would have bought PC without the assurances Frontier would keep working on it.

Because of this it shouldn't have been such a suprise that there were free updates/ patches/ whatever you call them - that's what they promised. Ironically the standard for games companies is seemingly so low, that throwing a clearly unfinished product on the market and NOT immediately abandoning it gives you credit like you wouldn't believe!

With every new update part of the community is blown away by Frontier's - as it must feel to them - sheer generosity. They don't see it as just a different buisness/ release model, which it is. (And by the way it is working, just look at their revenue. And I for one am happy for them.)

But that's where a lot of the controversy comes from. One poster argues on the premise every patch is a gift, the next one argues on the basis these little junks is simply how the game is being released.

The community waited almost a year for Frontier to fix crucial things in the game. Regarding the big stuff we saw some game changing new features (no collision, custom biomes, billboards) and bugs that got addressed (shop insanity, queues). The rest was new assets. Many things still didn't see any improvement. Building is frustrating as ever, balance is still off and management is - well, in my opinion it's a lost cause. And with the updates new bugs were introduced - I don't know but I don't think all the bugs introduced with 1.3 are fixed yet - and features like ride aging or the sequencer just seem sloppy and poorly designed.

Anyway, this alone wouldn't be such an issue if only Frontier was communicating! You can't expect people to just sit and wait month after month until the thing they're waiting for gets fixed. "Maybe it will, maybe it won't, you just be patient." Leaving the community in the dark has a major disadvantage: People don't know what they can realistically expect. Add to that the - as I see it - constant over-hyping of stuff and you can see where comments like you mentioned come from.

Many have become frustrated and its not because we can't appreciate what Frontier is doing. If you look closely you'll find few exceptions of people who don't have to say good and positive things about PC as well. Communication and a little bit more transparency* on Frontier's part is all it would take for people to have more patience and understanding.

*This includes adressing concerns about QoL, balance, coaster editor etc., owning up to self-imposed but still missed deadlines (there must be a good reason why the anniversary announcement was nothing like they said it would be), being clear about priorities.
 
All I see here are complaints about the community and arguing about arguing [wacky] this is the kind of stuff we dont need around here. I'm very vocal about sharing suggestions, I dislike the licensed DLCs, and I dislike how so many people say things about the devs needing to put food on the table... but this thread doesn't help anything. There are things that could help the game, and we should focus on what we think could help rather than arguing about nothing.

Many things still didn't see any improvement. Building is frustrating as ever, balance is still off and management is - well, in my opinion it's a lost cause. And with the updates new bugs were introduced - I don't know but I don't think all the bugs introduced with 1.3 are fixed yet - and features like ride aging or the sequencer just seem sloppy and poorly designed.

this^ is what you should be discussing, everything else you said will only start a heated useless debate... Discuss your ideas on what could help
 
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All I see here are complaints about the community and arguing about arguing [wacky] this is the kind of stuff we dont need around here. I'm very vocal about sharing suggestions, I dislike the licensed DLCs, and I dislike how so many people say things about the devs needing to put food on the table... but this thread doesn't help anything. There are things that could help the game, and we should focus on what we think could help rather than arguing about nothing.

I'm sorry you didn't get the point of me posting this. The discussion you suggest to prevent is happening anyways, in every single thread. I am not attempting to put oil in the fire here, believe me. But if anyone wants to have a heated debate, let's have it in here instead everywhere else.
 
All I see here are complaints about the community and arguing about arguing [wacky] this is the kind of stuff we dont need around here. I'm very vocal about sharing suggestions, I dislike the licensed DLCs, and I dislike how so many people say things about the devs needing to put food on the table... but this thread doesn't help anything. There are things that could help the game, and we should focus on what we think could help rather than arguing about nothing.



this^ is what you should be discussing, everything else you said will only start a heated useless debate... Discuss your ideas on what could help

For once I actually agree with you breezerHOG. The OP's post will just divide the community further making it an even more hostile environment to be at. Soon we will end up like the Steam forums. Discussing new ideas and improvements are good but only if you can present your ideas in a sensible way and that you will be open for discussion and listen to what other people says. Right now its always end sup in "I disagree, you are an idiot, my idea is the only one that works" (to over dramatize it some). All this will do is for Frontier to shy away from the forum because it gets's impossible to find any useful discussions for them. Right now it is very hard to weed out what is actually the consensus on the forums on certain topics. If all threads ends up in a ❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎❤︎ contest between the "two sides", how can Frontier ever decide what to do because no matter what they will upset the other side. Having a healthy discussion about it without heated arguments is what will help them. Stop complaining about what they do decide to release and start talking about what they should do next. That is time better spent. We can't change the current decision but we can influence the coming, undecided, ones.
 
Stop complaining about what they do decide to release and start talking about what they should do next. That is time better spent. We can't change the current decision but we can influence the coming, undecided, ones.

Cannot change?

Come on, this is what we have been doing since Alpha. Giving suggestions and enhancements. Why can't we talk after they added stuff?
They still change things afterwards aren't they?

Or are they adding and consider it done?

So you tell me it is impossible for the devs to remove the top (or add an function) for the Music Express (anniversary update) after release to give it a more neutral look?

Or add an visual timeline to the sequencer?

And where in the past months did you feel you influenced the introduction of things? other then them "stealing" your idea?
What's your influence (or others here) on the staff room improvements for the anniversary update?
Anything in there that you suggested?

Breezer made tons (overacting) of threads about staff enhancements and facilities with very good ideas and all they added is the staff room...
 
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Cannot change?

Come on, this is what we have been doing since Alpha. Giving suggestions and enhancements. Why can't we talk after they added stuff?
They still change things afterwards aren't they?

Or are they adding and consider it done?

So you tell me it is impossible for the devs to remove the top (or add an function) for the Music Express (anniversary update) after release to give it a more neutral look?

Or add an visual timeline to the sequencer?

And where in the past months did you feel you influenced the introduction of things? other then them "stealing" your idea?
What's your influence (or others here) on the staff room improvements for the anniversary update?
Anything in there that you suggested?

Breezer made tons (overacting) of threads with very good ideas and all they added is the staff room...

I think you misunderstood me. Software development doesn't work in a way where you simple can rip something out and replace it with something else. By "current" I refer to what Frontier has decided they would like to have in the anniversary update (as an example). Those parts (based on feedback to some extend I am sure) are more or less set in stone now. Based on comments during the early access days from Frontier developers, and my own experience with software development, it takes weeks to go from a feature complete update to make it ready for release. You can't just add something in the day before and hope it will work. As you see, even with the longer times between updates you will still not get rid of all bugs. We are talking about million of lines of code for a game like this and the smallest change/addition may have severe negative consequences in totally different parts of the code than you anticipated. Software development is just one big experiment.

So what I am saying is that we can't change what decisions has already been made in the past and for the next update (anniversary) but we can, with a healthy and calm discussion, steer how the coming updates will shape up and contain. Software development usually only sees 2-4 weeks ahead and have a very dynamic list of items to work on. It is constantly changing and evolving.
 
...
So let's get this straight: The things they cleverly brand 'free updates' are not gifts!

According to Frontier they did in fact not deliver a complete game (whatever that means to you): Almost a year back the devs said they're not done with the game, the development continues and there will be updates. It only made sense, because there were a whole lot of things still lacking and I'm not sure so many people would have bought PC without the assurances Frontier would keep working on it. ...

... Because of this it shouldn't have been such a suprise that there were free updates/ patches/ whatever you call them - that's what they promised.

With every new update part of the community is blown away by Frontier's - as it must feel to them - sheer generosity. They don't see it as just a different buisness/ release model, which it is. (And by the way it is working, just look at their revenue. And I for one am happy for them.)

But that's where a lot of the controversy comes from. One poster argues on the premise every patch is a gift, the next one argues on the basis these little junks is simply how the game is being released.

The community waited almost a year for Frontier to fix crucial things in the game. Regarding the big stuff we saw some game changing new features...

...Anyway, this alone wouldn't be such an issue if only Frontier was communicating! You can't expect people to just sit and wait month after month until the thing they're waiting for gets fixed. "Maybe it will, maybe it won't, you just be patient." Leaving the community in the dark has a major disadvantage: People don't know what they can realistically expect. Add to that the - as I see it - constant over-hyping of stuff and you can see where comments like you mentioned come from.

Many have become frustrated and its not because we can't appreciate what Frontier is doing. If you look closely you'll find few exceptions of people who don't have to say good and positive things about PC as well. Communication and a little bit more transparency* on Frontier's part is all it would take for people to have more patience and understanding. ...
I just bring forward some quotes from seeker939's original post that I do agree on is the main issue for the debate among us on this forum today.
The game wasn't finished at release. Now, one year later. We are still many who waits for the game to be completed before we start feel content with continuing with real paid for expansion packs.

And there are those who are happily content, with lower expectations on what a complete Planet Coaster should be.


Personally, I'm glad Frontier addressed this worries and do continue to finish the base game with free updates, despite the spooky content pack.
 
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i like the current industry model.
the old model was more risky (wrt player fun factor and features), cost a lot more, and bankrupted a lot more companies.
the new model allows the release of what would have been beta (back in the 80s), and allows the community to influence the final outcome far more.
yes, it's true, compared to the old days, games are released "unfinished".
good!
and yes, technically that means that the "free updates" are just "catching up" with the expected and desired final feature list.
also good. it results in a better game in the long run.
and how are companies to monetise this far more extensive support and improvement of the games?
they can do both! free updates (base capability) and optional paid extras.

it's brilliant. we get a better game, they get more money. sounds win-win to me.
now, SOME companies exploit this negatively, selling the incomplete base and bailing out.
that is lose-lose (worse game, angry vengeful customers, future profits destroyed).

Frontier are getting it right, and we encourage that by saying "thanks for the free updates!!" so what? you think we are all stupid because we don't realise what's going on here? i think you are missing the point, OP, that maybe we understand completely and we're ok with it!

i.e. we get your point, i think, we just don't agree with the divisive tone.
if the result is just more forum PvP, it's not a valuable thread.

if the outcome is that you accept that many of us do understand, precisely, we just don't agree that there's anything "bad" about it, that would be cool.
 
i like the current industry model.
the old model was more risky (wrt player fun factor and features), cost a lot more, and bankrupted a lot more companies.
the new model allows the release of what would have been beta (back in the 80s), and allows the community to influence the final outcome far more.
yes, it's true, compared to the old days, games are released "unfinished".
good!
and yes, technically that means that the "free updates" are just "catching up" with the expected and desired final feature list.
also good. it results in a better game in the long run.
and how are companies to monetise this far more extensive support and improvement of the games?
they can do both! free updates (base capability) and optional paid extras.

it's brilliant. we get a better game, they get more money. sounds win-win to me.
now, SOME companies exploit this negatively, selling the incomplete base and bailing out.
that is lose-lose (worse game, angry vengeful customers, future profits destroyed).

Frontier are getting it right, and we encourage that by saying "thanks for the free updates!!" so what? you think we are all stupid because we don't realise what's going on here? i think you are missing the point, OP, that maybe we understand completely and we're ok with it!

i.e. we get your point, i think, we just don't agree with the divisive tone.
if the result is just more forum PvP, it's not a valuable thread.

if the outcome is that you accept that many of us do understand, precisely, we just don't agree that there's anything "bad" about it, that would be cool.

THIS
 
i like the current industry model.
the old model was more risky (wrt player fun factor and features), cost a lot more, and bankrupted a lot more companies.
the new model allows the release of what would have been beta (back in the 80s), and allows the community to influence the final outcome far more.
yes, it's true, compared to the old days, games are released "unfinished".
good!
and yes, technically that means that the "free updates" are just "catching up" with the expected and desired final feature list.
also good. it results in a better game in the long run.
and how are companies to monetise this far more extensive support and improvement of the games?
they can do both! free updates (base capability) and optional paid extras.

it's brilliant. we get a better game, they get more money. sounds win-win to me.
now, SOME companies exploit this negatively, selling the incomplete base and bailing out.
that is lose-lose (worse game, angry vengeful customers, future profits destroyed).

Frontier are getting it right, and we encourage that by saying "thanks for the free updates!!" so what? you think we are all stupid because we don't realise what's going on here? i think you are missing the point, OP, that maybe we understand completely and we're ok with it!

i.e. we get your point, i think, we just don't agree with the divisive tone.
if the result is just more forum PvP, it's not a valuable thread.

if the outcome is that you accept that many of us do understand, precisely, we just don't agree that there's anything "bad" about it, that would be cool.

AMEN! When RCT 1 hit the shelf's in 1999 the web as we know to was only 3-4 years old. Companies didn't have tons of IT staff. Games came complete no patches or bugs no updates no community mangers to show off games. you found out about an expansion pack or a new game from gaming mags, that would show you a sneak peek. As an older gamer I love the way gaming companies are run today for this very reason. I can see how the game looks and plays, and I can make the final decision on weather I'm going to buy this game or any DLC. I've spent 1000's of dollars on games from Atari's 2600 to my PS4 and my PC. and I no longer get buyers remorse unlike pac-man for the 2600. Yes games in the 80's are almost the same price as games today around 50. minus the special upgrades like Coaster Head.
 
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If the outcome is that you accept that many of us do understand, precisely, we just don't agree that there's anything "bad" about it, that would be cool.

Great post James - very well said [happy]

Apple have just released their latest iPhone... we can all agree there will be numerous ‘free’ updates over the next twelve months for it - does this mean that Apple released an incomplete product when it launched? (Other mobile phones are available).
 
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i like the current industry model.
the old model was more risky (wrt player fun factor and features), cost a lot more, and bankrupted a lot more companies.
the new model allows the release of what would have been beta (back in the 80s), and allows the community to influence the final outcome far more.
yes, it's true, compared to the old days, games are released "unfinished".
good!
and yes, technically that means that the "free updates" are just "catching up" with the expected and desired final feature list.
also good. it results in a better game in the long run.
and how are companies to monetise this far more extensive support and improvement of the games?
they can do both! free updates (base capability) and optional paid extras.

it's brilliant. we get a better game, they get more money. sounds win-win to me.
now, SOME companies exploit this negatively, selling the incomplete base and bailing out.
that is lose-lose (worse game, angry vengeful customers, future profits destroyed).

Frontier are getting it right, and we encourage that by saying "thanks for the free updates!!" so what? you think we are all stupid because we don't realise what's going on here? i think you are missing the point, OP, that maybe we understand completely and we're ok with it!

i.e. we get your point, i think, we just don't agree with the divisive tone.
if the result is just more forum PvP, it's not a valuable thread.

if the outcome is that you accept that many of us do understand, precisely, we just don't agree that there's anything "bad" about it, that would be cool.

Brilliantly put, I am playing games nowadays over a longer period with more hours played. I have dropped a number of cracking games simply as I no longer have the time to invest in these long term games.

For more story based games such as RPG's I do prefer a tighter complete package though, not a fan of them turning single player games into Games as a Service, as dislike a lot the mechanics used to pre-long the game.

I love watching games like Planet Coaster and Cities Skylines evolve over time, and quite willing to support these games. But it not cheap if you have a number on the go which I found out .
 
i.e. we get your point, i think, we just don't agree with the divisive tone.
if the result is just more forum PvP, it's not a valuable thread.

if the outcome is that you accept that many of us do understand, precisely, we just don't agree that there's anything "bad" about it, that would be cool.

And it shouldn't result in more forum PvP. But the fact is, that's how the discussion turns, every single time. And a huge part of this is "The devs already gave us so many updates for free which they didn't owe us and demanding more means you're greedy/ entitled/ ..." So you yourself may not argue that way but please let's not pretend this isn't a common theme.
I don't think I am creating a division, it is already there and if my tone is bothering you, please ignore it and focus on the content. Because we do agree on the facts I think.

From your comment it seems you're reading more into my words than what is there - and others do too. I didn't argue for or against this release model! Wether I like it or not is besides the point here. Of course I have no problem with a Thank You for a patch. But there is an issue if the update thing is misused as an argument to dismiss criticism or accuse people of beeing greedy. And, again, look how the threads turn, this IS what's happening. So either there are people who do not understand this or everyone is aware and still doesn't care - you tell me which is worse.
 
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And it shouldn't result in more forum PvP. But the fact is, that's how the discussion turns, every single time. And a huge part of this is "The devs already gave us so many updates for free which they didn't owe us and demanding more means you're greedy/ entitled/ ..." So you yourself may not argue that way but please let's not pretend this isn't a common theme.
I don't think I am creating a division, it is already there and if my tone is bothering you, please ignore it and focus on the content. Because we do agree on the facts I think.

From your comment it seems you're reading more into my words than what is there - and others do too. I didn't argue for or against this release model! Wether I like it or not is besides the point here. Of course I have no problem with a Thank You for a patch. But there is an issue if the update thing is misused as an argument to dismiss criticism or accuse people of beeing greedy. And, again, look how the threads turn, this IS what's happening. So either there are people who do not understand this or everyone is aware and still doesn't care - you tell me which is worse.

It is true that criticism (feedback?) is often countered with comments about "you should be grateful for the free updates".
Those comments are not helpful, as they suppress legitimate feedback from players who care.
The infighting doesn't help the game.
But then, provoking yet another fight doesn't help either...
 
It is true that criticism (feedback?) is often countered with comments about "you should be grateful for the free updates".
Those comments are not helpful, as they suppress legitimate feedback from players who care.
The infighting doesn't help the game.
But then, provoking yet another fight doesn't help either...

You're right, feedback is the term I was looking for. Well, for my comments I wouldn't object to the term criticism though (at least when it comes to certain topics [wink]).

I honestly have no idea how pointing some things out like I did in the OP could be seen as provoking a fight, making the forums a hostile place or the like. If anything this should clear up some misunderstandings I would believe.
Nothing I can do about it I'm afraid. I mean I can of course repeat once again what my intentions are but at this point I doubt it would make any difference.
 
Seeker, I don't know what's matter with. Looks like someday something very big has hit you. Otherwise i can't understand your point of view. Right from the beginning, Frontier has never promised free updates. That's it. Leave us alone with your comments. I really think, someone should report you and take you from this forum.
 
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