General / Off-Topic The UK banishes the employment of a close friend by members of parliament

Talarin

T
Becks said:
EU commissioners are indirectly elected as they get their nomination and mandate by the elected governments of the members. While they hold considerable powers they're also kept in check closely by the European Council and the European Parliament, which are both democratically elected entities.

We don't directly elect our ministers, we don't directly elect our chancellor, you don't directly elect your ministers and you don't directly elect your PM, but suddenly it's a problem when EU commissioners aren't directly elected?
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I appreciate that we're talking about the subtlest of differences here but ministers are pretty much always democratically elected officials (in that they hold an elected role). There are some exceptions, but they are rare. EU Commissioners are job applicants. There is absolutely no democracy involved in their selection, barring some of the interview panel being elected. Special advisors are then selected by the Commissioners. The equivalent of our civil service (the General Directorate?) are also obviously not elected, but hold tremendous power.

And I don't have a specific problem with it (although I do think it should be changed; EU Commissioner should be selected from MEPs imo). Just pointing out that The Kerbinator drawing equivalence between the selection of a PM and an EU official is misguided.
 

The Kerbinator

The Kerbinator
Talarin said:
I appreciate that we're talking about the subtlest of differences here but ministers are pretty much always democratically elected officials (in that they hold an elected role). There are some exceptions, but they are rare. EU Commissioners are job applicants. There is absolutely no democracy involved in their selection, barring some of the interview panel being elected. Special advisors are then selected by the Commissioners. The equivalent of our civil service (the General Directorate?) are also obviously not elected, but hold tremendous power.

And I don't have a specific problem with it (although I do think it should be changed; EU Commissioner should be selected from MEPs imo). Just pointing out that The Kerbinator drawing equivalence between the selection of a PM and an EU official is misguided.
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Although my original point was in regards to the House of Lords, which is way less democratic.
 

Talarin

T
The Kerbinator said:
Although my original point was in regards to the House of Lords, which is way less democratic.
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On that, you and I completely agree. Hereditary peers (men only, dontcha know), the Bishops of the Anglican Church, influential politicians or political actors (including those behind the scenes). At the same time, I don't get overly bent out of shape about it. The relative power of the House of Lords is small and (as we've seen recently) can be over-ridden by the House of Commons if they're acting improperly.
 

Becks

Becks
Talarin said:
I appreciate that we're talking about the subtlest of differences here but ministers are pretty much always democratically elected officials (in that they hold an elected role). There are some exceptions, but they are rare. EU Commissioners are job applicants. There is absolutely no democracy involved in their selection, barring some of the interview panel being elected. Special advisors are then selected by the Commissioners. The equivalent of our civil service (the General Directorate?) are also obviously not elected, but hold tremendous power.

And I don't have a specific problem with it (although I do think it should be changed; EU Commissioner should be selected from MEPs imo). Just pointing out that The Kerbinator drawing equivalence between the selection of a PM and an EU official is misguided.
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You're completely right there. Commissioners are job applicants. However, should the President of the Commission make a choice which goes strongly against the will of the parliament he risks that the whole commission is voted down. So the Parliament kind of controls the selection process to a degree by limiting the options to choose from.

Once you look into the biographies of the current commissioners you'll see that only two of them haven't either been MEPs or MPs in their respective countries. Ironically one of them is british (Julian King, the other one is Violeta Bulc according to the hp of the European Commission).

I agree, that the Parliament should get a little more control over the selection process, but not with the applicants being limited to MEPs. If someone talented from the private sector applies, why not if they manage to get approved by the parliament.
 

bootsam

bootsam
What difference does any of it make? Naff all, we still get lumbered by incompetent conceits. Us, the electorate wouldnt know a decent candidate if they shoved a ballot paper up our asses. We care only for ourselves and our own personal agendas rather than the good of society as a whole. Its a selfish system we care about, one that benefits the individual and not the people. Democracy is currently an (other word for a donkey which for some reason is censored) , because the electorate are too stupid and petty minded to understand any of it. They defer their understanding to that of whatever media they watch or read because they are all lazy useless nits. They dont want to think about or understand the issues. They only want whats best for them or what someone has told them to do. The electorate is a complacent idiot and just follows the words of the sententious like the sheep they are. We get what we deserve. We got idiots and the corrupt because thats what we have become.

Kill all humans.
 
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Gortron

Gortron
Becks said:
EU commissioners are indirectly elected as they get their nomination and mandate by the elected governments of the members. While they hold considerable powers they're also kept in check closely by the European Council and the European Parliament, which are both democratically elected entities.

We don't directly elect our ministers, we don't directly elect our chancellor, you don't directly elect your ministers and you don't directly elect your PM, but suddenly it's a problem when EU commissioners aren't directly elected?
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NO!! It is dilution of accountability. The UK system of FPTP sucks big time, it is super rubbish from a take into account everyone's point of view standpoint. An unelected Queen as a head of state.... that must seem even more bonkers, but it works! We vote for an MP and his/her job is to represent the people that voted for him or her. If they mess it up they are gone. We can see how they vote. They work for us. The lords passed the Brexit bill because they didn't dare stop it. Our system works because it is working for us.
 

Talarin

T
Becks said:
You're completely right there. Commissioners are job applicants. However, should the President of the Commission make a choice which goes strongly against the will of the parliament he risks that the whole commission is voted down. So the Parliament kind of controls the selection process to a degree by limiting the options to choose from.

Once you look into the biographies of the current commissioners you'll see that only two of them haven't either been MEPs or MPs in their respective countries. Ironically one of them is british (Julian King, the other one is Violeta Bulc according to the hp of the European Commission).

I agree, that the Parliament should get a little more control over the selection process, but not with the applicants being limited to MEPs. If someone talented from the private sector applies, why not if they manage to get approved by the parliament.
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As understand it, the Council has no choice over the selection of commissioners. Instead they input into the election of the President. And having been elected is precisely my point. The cynical side of me sees the appointment of a EU Commissioner to be a perk bestowed upon a favoured person. Perhaps that's unfair - but it aligns neatly with the point of the thread: cronyism. And that crony can then further reward other cronies...

(To be clear, I'm not suggesting mass cronyism at the core of the EU - but the system is open to that sort of abuse as I see it.)
 
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Gortron

Gortron
Talarin said:
As understand it, the Council has no choice over the selection of commissioners. Instead they input into the election of the President. And having been elected is precisely my comment. The cynical side of me sees the appointment of a EU Commissioner to be a perk bestowed upon a favoured person. Perhaps that's unfair - but it aligns neatly with the point of the thread: cronyism. And that crony can then further reward other cronies...

(To be clear, I'm not suggesting mass cronyism at the core of the EU - but the system is open to that sort of abuse as I see it.)
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Just tell her how it is... it isn't democratic Becks.
 

Talarin

T
Gortron said:
Just tell her how it is... it isn't democratic Becks.
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Not a fan of "just telling it". Talk about the point. Explain the reasoning. Challenge reasoning on the other side. Look at data. Challenge data. Data is king.

It's why a chunk of what I'm referring to as "that lot" have me on their ignore list. They don't like actual data in place of "just telling" ;)
 

Gortron

Gortron
Talarin said:
Not a fan of "just telling it". Talk about the point. Explain the reasoning. Challenge reasoning on the other side. Look at data. Challenge data. Data is king.

It's why a chunk of what I'm referring to as "that lot" have me on their ignore list. They don't like actual data in place of "just telling" ;)
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I didn't say that Talarin
 

Talarin

T
Oh, I see. You should report the post - the mods should be able to identify a variance in IP address from your usual (and identify any other posts).
 
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