Powerplay The View from Utopia and why PP2 has partially failed

[Darrack]

Firstly this isn't a bashing thread, in all honestly I'm having a blast in PP2, its making me think, tasks are more varied and there is tons to do.
For the first time in PP I'm actually making credits instead of shelling out to skip the refresh on collecting Dissidents which cost me an average of 100mil per Cycle.
Mining (something i really enjoy) now actually has an impact, i can do the things i want to do instead of endlessly hauling those in need of internment rehabilitation.

So onto the gripe.
We all said don't link modules again to PP, they didn't listen and its gone a bit Pete Tong.
The first week here in The Technologically Progressive Enclave of Utopia we got hit hard by exploiters, some with an intention of getting some sort of false feeling of 'ooh look how good i am', some using new Powers to make an instant impact, but having spoken to a lot of folks; by not actually realising what they are doing.

I don't mean that in a derogatory way, put a goal with tasty treats in front of my Dog and he wont stop until he's scoffed them all.
Modules are the same.
In PP1 i only had two modules, Enforcer Cannons (obviously) and Pack Hounds which i unlocked for laughs, the thought of cuddling up to other leaders (Princess aside ) really made me feel uncomfortable and so i didn't bother with the rest, to be fair the other modules really wouldn't have helped me much anyway.

So now in PP2 we have a way to get everything which in a way was a good idea, the downside is folks wrecked systems with no concern for PP but just to grind to those modules as fast as possible.
Cards on the table I've been using my time to grind those ranks myself now with the chance of getting modules i never got to experience before but I've still tied this with being focused on the goal of spreading our great leaders message throughout the Bubble and beyond.
I am now rank 34 and celebrated the unlocking of my first module this morning - Enforcer Cannons
The biggest thing i like in the new format is knowing i can head off out into the Black after Yule and not have to worry about rank decay, i can crack on exactly where i left off when i get back.

So what should have been done different?
As we all previously discussed we saw this coming.
Power modules should have been renamed - Special Modules or something like that, tied to a new engineer or new station service.
No issues with a grind, lock the modules behind tasks, reputation, whatever but make them separate.
This way it would have stopped (to a certain degree) these exploiters, youtubers and the like from inadvertently (or maliciously) effecting systems and then Fdev having to swing the Nerf bat.

I applaud Fdev on PP2 i genuinely love it and I'm sure the small amount of issues will soon be ironed out in the coming year, i just wish they had listened to us on the modules.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Since PP2 does not care about activity (just as long as its done) whats the issue?

This is not like PP1 where blatant farming harms a power- I still have PTSD from 5C and farmers dumping activity into the closest systems to a capital.

 

[Markov Chaney]

I think OP is suggesting the further you move the slider towards "acquiring ship enhancements" the more it is moving away from pure RP and storytelling, and there is a point where you might as well stop pretending there are 12 powers in a narrative struggle or any RP at all, it is simply a race for a quest to trophies for a thing.

Me personally I think there are a large number of large squadrons who are fully committed to RP so that aspect of it is working, and there are a large number of individuals who are minimaxing to get moar modules faster. But if you multiply this out, the effect of "good faith x many squadrons x many players in each squadron" still vastly outweighs the "bad faith x many individuals x 1" total, so we good.

Plus the individuals can't do it forever because a) there is only one of them and b) once they have the modules they have the modules, so this activity has the peak NOW; but the long-sighted genuine PP 2.0 community will be around for years. So in a few months' time the minimaxers just won't matter in the universe.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think OP is suggesting the further you move the slider towards "acquiring ship enhancements" the more it is moving away from pure RP and storytelling, and there is a point where you might as well stop pretending there are 12 powers in a narrative struggle or any RP at all, it is simply a race for a quest to trophies for a thing.

Me personally I think there are a large number of large squadrons who are fully committed to RP so that aspect of it is working, and there are a large number of individuals who are minimaxing to get moar modules faster. But if you multiply this out, the effect of "good faith x many squadrons x many players in each squadron" still vastly outweighs the "bad faith x many individuals x 1" total, so we good.

Plus the individuals can't do it forever because a) there is only one of them and b) once they have the modules they have the modules, so this activity has the peak NOW; but the long-sighted genuine PP 2.0 community will be around for years. So in a few months' time the minimaxers just won't matter in the universe.

But being blunt again, who cares? Players play for various reasons and this just adds background noise and variation to how powers grow. The only difference is that now individuals can do what they like, attack who they like and believe what they like outside of large groups.

But if you multiply this out, the effect of "good faith x many squadrons x many players in each squadron" still vastly outweighs the "bad faith x many individuals x 1" total, so we good.

How does 'good' and 'bad' faith map to PP2 where you can't 5C? Are 'bad' players the ones to adhering to how old groups view other powers, and the cushy (read boring) old status quo?

So in a few months' time the minimaxers just won't matter in the universe.

And if modules had been divorced from PP2 you'd not have had a few months of actual random play.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Plus the individuals can't do it forever because a) there is only one of them and b) once they have the modules they have the modules, so this activity has the peak NOW; but the long-sighted genuine PP 2.0 community will be around for years. So in a few months' time the minimaxers just won't matter in the universe.

That misses out that new players will be joining the game and wanting the modules, though. Sure, it'll slow down a bit from the current rate, but there'll always be new people wanting to gain rank.

Since PP2 does not care about activity (just as long as its done) whats the issue?

Agreed. There's 10-20,000 systems in play - a bunch of people randomly reinforcing and undermining them keeps it moving.
(So long as there's not too much reinforcement over undermining from this background, though it's hard to say how that's going)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Agreed. There's 10-20,000 systems in play - a bunch of people randomly reinforcing and undermining them keeps it moving.
(So long as there's not too much reinforcement over undermining from this background, though it's hard to say how that's going)

Maybe I'm missing the OPs point but it just reads as: 'players are playing PP2 for mercenary reasons and not how we see the Power or according to our objectives'.

Is the worry long term retention?

 

[Markov Chaney]

But being blunt again, who cares?

My point was, no-one cares, because it will average out and it's designed to average out. This thing of "look at this playstyle this guy has, it will ruin everything!!!???" is simply not the case. It's the fallacy where people look at a statistical picture and try and apply it to an individual.

Players play for various reasons and this just adds background noise and variation to how powers grow. The only difference is that now individuals can do what they like, attack who they like and believe what they like outside of large groups.

I was agreeing, but perhaps I didn't express that very well. What I'm trying to say is there might well be a small cohort of people who were tempted to just exploit the heck out of everything to get modules but it doesn't matter and it's not a design flaw.

How does 'good' and 'bad' faith map to PP2 where you can't 5C? Are 'bad' players the ones to adhering to how old groups view other powers, and the cushy (read boring) old status quo?

I used "bad faith" to mean "that one guy that found all the exploits and stacked them all to be the absolute meta of the meta, and would rather be building pivot tables and screenshotting leaderboards than actually engaging with the universe"

(Note, I love pivot tables. But ALSO gameplay.)

And if modules had been divorced from PP2 you'd not have had a few months of actual random play.

"Reward" is an incredibly complex psychological mechanism so really focusing in on modules is a bit silly in the first place. (Which I think is what you're saying?)

 

[Markov Chaney]

That misses out that new players will be joining the game and wanting the modules, though. Sure, it'll slow down a bit from the current rate, but there'll always be new people wanting to gain rank.

Aye, that's the upside. And it doesn't have a meaningful downside.

 

[gumbie]

Expecting other players to play exactly the way YOU want them to play is ridiculous.

Bad faith is impossible when players cannot harm their own power.

Balance issues and exploits are an issue that should be ironed out but I don't think they have been game-breaking
.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I used "bad faith" to mean "that one guy that found all the exploits and stacked them all to be the absolute meta of the meta, and would rather be building pivot tables and screenshotting leaderboards than actually engaging with the universe"

And thats down to FD to eliminate exploits and balance (as they are currently doing)- but beyond that, effort is effort just like other parts of the game people achieve for bragging.

 

[Darrack]

Maybe I'm missing the OPs point but it just reads as: 'players are playing PP2 for mercenary reasons and not how we see the Power or according to our objectives'.

Is the worry long term retention?

Yes its a worry, I'm waiting until every man and his Dog hits 100, has all the modules, then maybe we can settle down into 'true' PP2.
PP1 was a niche game, PP2 was intended to increase players taking part (hence imo no Open focused), as i said at the start I'm not bashing the mew system, i love it, i just think the modules should have been separate, nothing deeper than that.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yes its a worry, I'm waiting until every man and his Dog hits 100, has all the modules, then maybe we can settle down into 'true' PP2.
PP1 was a niche game, PP2 was intended to increase players taking part (hence imo no Open focused), as i said at the start I'm not bashing the mew system, i love it, i just think the modules should have been separate, nothing deeper than that.

O7

The problem is that for PP2 to flourish, it needs to provide new gameplay experiences to attract more people- offering carrots is one short term boost but eventually people will wonder why PP2 is really retooled BGS activities.

If I were cynical I'd say that PP2 has simply stolen BGS players, given PP2 is a more involved and evolved territorial conflict sim. PP2 is popular now because it actually rewards as you play the disparate parts of ED- I think for many that will be good enough context to keep going (as compared to the BGS, which lacks PP2s UIs, rewards, guidance etc).

'true' PP2

And what is that? If all effort is good then any effort is good, regardless of motivation. The long term threat for 'true' PP is slipping back into the comfortable groups and relationships which made PP1 so predictable.

 

[Darrack]

The problem is that for PP2 to flourish, it needs to provide new gameplay experiences to attract more people- offering carrots is one short term boost but eventually people will wonder why PP2 is really retooled BGS activities.

If I were cynical I'd say that PP2 has simply stolen BGS players, given PP2 is a more involved and evolved territorial conflict sim. PP2 is popular now because it actually rewards as you play the disparate parts of ED- I think for many that will be good enough context to keep going (as compared to the BGS, which lacks PP2s UIs, rewards, guidance etc).



And what is that? If all effort is good then any effort is good, regardless of motivation. The long term threat for 'true' PP is slipping back into the comfortable groups and relationships which made PP1 so predictable.

Careful for a moment here i would say you are happy with the new system staying all modes to attract players
My OP was simply that i still believe Modules should be separate, not an argument thread we have plenty of those, heck I'm even benefitting from the way things are now as I'm getting all the modules without having to support other powers like PP1.

I'm happy more folks are doing PP, i just think the numbers will drop once everyone has the modules and maybe leave no incentive for the masses to continue?

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Careful for a moment here i would say you are happy with the new system staying all modes to attract players
My OP was simply that i still believe Modules should be separate, not an argument thread we have plenty of those, heck I'm even benefitting from the way things are now as I'm getting all the modules without having to support other powers like PP1.

I'm happy more folks are doing PP, i just think the numbers will drop once everyone has the modules and maybe leave no incentive for the masses to continue?

O7

I'm just pointing out that given Powerplay 2 does not care what you do, as long as you do something is a 'win'. Modules are a powerful draw, and one that pulls people in.

Careful for a moment here i would say you are happy with the new system staying all modes to attract players

The issue will be how much interest PvE provides players once the novelty wears off, and / or that PP2 reverts back to farming merits while NPCs do essentially nothing back. So far PP2 has failed dismally in this regard.

 

[Danieros]

There is too much variation within activities and systems don't stop giving merits when the weekly progress limit is reached, so current design will end up with "grinder" systems just like PP1. An unfortunate black hole of merits achieving nothing. PP1 didn't really need many merits for module shoppers but that didn't stop grinder systems from getting hundreds of thousands of merits every week so I don't think it will be different in PP2, especially with weekly top 10 leaderboards.

As long as merit gain is linear per cr, then a system with a limited 5m/hour activity won't get much attention versus an outlier system with a best-among-the-galaxy 100m/hour, in this case it's a 20x variation.

If merit gain continues to scale linearly then I fear they will keep nuking activities while trying to balance the best cases for the activity - mining at best situations is a pretty OP merit gain, so if they try to balance that linearly... mining at best becomes just "normal", and anywhere else will be useless.

 

[BDelacroix]

There will likely always be some meta even if its marginal. For myself, I did a set of restoration missions for my power and obtained 4 levels. That seems good enough for me. Mining might have been more optimal but I don't care.
I have reached the level I need for the modules I happen to use so from now on its even more just for fun.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It's good to remember also that relatively few players are actively grinding huge volumes of merits either to unlock the modules as fast as possible or to achieve some major system strategic goal by themselves. I've generally got towards the high end of the 25%-10% band, only once narrowly into top 10%. I just unlocked my power's first module today ... so maybe another 3 months before I get the rest? 90%ish of players are going slower than I am, often considerably so.

Whether or not Powerplay should offer modules, I doubt the presence of them is significantly distorting which systems see activity.

and systems don't stop giving merits when the weekly progress limit is reached

At least in theory if not usually in practice, someone from the other side might undermine/reinforce it later and bring it back below that limit.
(Single-power-reachable Acquisitions, sure, but it's probably not worth bringing in a whole set of exceptions for one case)

 

[Agent-137]

I had the same thought as OP. I had a small hope that the modules would have been spun out into tech brokers or something at each HQ so they were still power flavored but not power play gated.

That said, I only tried power play because I liked multicannons and wanted to try the enforcers. Then I joined the Utopia discord and got hooked on the competition, PvP, community, diplomacy, and complexity.

I probably wouldn’t even be playing elite still if not for that, so my own case makes me question my initial thought of moving them out of power play. Yes they complicate and unbalance it, for instance prismatics being overwhelmingly valuable compared to other modules, but there needs to be a big carrot to get people to try it. I expect if existing modules were removed from it and a new carrot added then we’d have the similar issues. So it’s best to let it ride and focus dev efforts elsewhere.

Speaking of, Darrack and any else reading this, do you fly or coordinate with others in your power much? If not come join the discord for them mentioned in the “how to contact” thread. The Utopian discord is themed and run like Utopia in game: a player commune around the in-game commune.

 

[Darrack]

Speaking of, Darrack and any else reading this, do you fly or coordinate with others in your power much? If not come join the discord for them mentioned in the “how to contact” thread. The Utopian discord is themed and run like Utopia in game: a player commune around the in-game commune.

Appreciate the info, i did used to use the XL coordination sheet in PP1 but in the new year i have some goals i need to accomplish out in the Black, my job also is centred around 'odd' working hours so difficult to plan anything really.

O7