thick atmosphere colonisation issue, handwavium or hint to Q4 update

[Woakes]

Back before horizons, we had a oddity of the BGS having orbital stations doing their thing, be it mining/refinery/aggriculture, because of the planet they orbit.
The players didn't have access to those surface ports, only the orbital ports,but the BGS did.
When Horizons came online, we got to see a number of those planetary installations.
But those with an atmosphere just had "imagined" planetary ports and infrastructure for the BGS to play with to keep the orbital ports stocked with good from the surface.
With trailblazers colonisation we are now getting to see more of how this process has been designed.

Elite Dangerous | Trailblazers Update 3 - Wednesday April 30

Greetings Commanders, We will be releasing The Trailblazers Update 3 on Wednesday April 30. This update features a number of improvements to Colonisation economies and Powerplay merits, alongside a range of other fixes and improvements. Release Schedule (All times in UTC) 5AM - Servers...

forums.frontier.co.uk

• Links will now automatically be created between completed constructions within systems. Links enable supporting facilities to supply a proportion of their economy to ports across the entire system, increasing the supply, demand and types of commodities available and altering shipyard and outfitting stock.
• All constructions are divided into two types for the purpose of creating links: Ports and Supporting Facilities
  • Ports includes Outposts, Coriolis/Orbis/Ocellus Stations, Asteroid bases, Planetary Ports and Planetary Port Outposts
  • Supporting Facilities includes Settlements, Installations and Hubs
• Two types of link are available: Strong and Weak. A strong link provides a higher economic boost than a weak link
  • Strong links are created between a port and any facility located on or around the same local planetary body. They may also be created between ports if there are multiple of this type on or around the same body

• Additionally, strong links are subject to boosts or decreases in economic supply performance by the characteristics of the host system or body. Weak links are unaffected by this mechanic. Potential boosts/decreases are listed below:
  • Agriculture economy:
    • Boosted by:
      • Orbiting an Earth like world
      • On or orbiting a terraformable body
      • On or orbiting a body with organics

The issue being is that we can not colonize planets with thick atmosphere as we can not land there (yet).
So is the solution: we stick to the previous convention of the BGS creates imaginary facilities built from handwavium and necessity on the planet which is stocking up the orbital station, even though we have not supplied materials for construction for those facilities or even chosen to construct them (because we physically can not do that....yet?)


What happens when we finally do have access to the planets with thicker atmospheres, 3 options

• kill off that strong link interaction when the surface is accessible because the imaginary surface facilities disappear in our colonised systems because we never built them.
• The strong link will generate an actual physical bonus planetary port for free on the planets with thicker atmospheres, one we did not choose to build or choose its location
• The strong link be maintained as a stacking bonus, boosting the numbers between the orbital and any new ports we build.

Could this fuzzy handling of colonising thicker atmospheres be a hint of a feature (thicker atmospheres) coming in the near-by future (Q4) when such colonisation actioning become more concrete

 

[aRJay]

Back before horizons, we had a oddity of the BGS having orbital stations doing their thing, be it mining/refinery/aggriculture, because of the planet they orbit.
The players didn't have access to those surface ports, only the orbital ports,but the BGS did.
When Horizons came online, we got to see a number of those planetary installations.
But those with an atmosphere just had "imagined" planetary ports and infrastructure for the BGS to play with to keep the orbital ports stocked with good from the surface.
With trailblazers colonisation we are now getting to see more of how this process has been designed.

Elite Dangerous | Trailblazers Update 3 - Wednesday April 30

Greetings Commanders, We will be releasing The Trailblazers Update 3 on Wednesday April 30. This update features a number of improvements to Colonisation economies and Powerplay merits, alongside a range of other fixes and improvements. Release Schedule (All times in UTC) 5AM - Servers...

forums.frontier.co.uk

The issue being is that we can not colonize planets with thick atmosphere as we can not land there (yet).
So is the solution: we stick to the previous convention of the BGS creates imaginary facilities built from handwavium and necessity on the planet which is stocking up the orbital station, even though we have not supplied materials for construction for those facilities or even chosen to construct them (because we physically can not do that....yet?)

Yes for now.

What happens when we finally do have access to the planets with thicker atmospheres, 3 options

• kill off that strong link interaction when the surface is accessible because the imaginary surface facilities disappear in our colonised systems because we never built them.
• The strong link will generate an actual physical bonus planetary port for free on the planets with thicker atmospheres, one we did not choose to build or choose its location
• The strong link be maintained as a stacking bonus, boosting the numbers between the orbital and any new ports we build.

Something else that isn't yet obvious.

Could this fuzzy handling of colonising thicker atmospheres be a hint of a feature (thicker atmospheres) coming

Yes it could be.

in the near-by future (Q4) when such colonisation actioning become more concrete

But possibly not that near.

The way for us to handle it is of course to play the game as it is currently not what it may become in some future time.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Back before horizons, we had a oddity of the BGS having orbital stations doing their thing, be it mining/refinery/aggriculture, because of the planet they orbit.

Not all that strongly, though. The only strong association to planet type from that initial procedural set up - and even then there were exceptions - was that ELWs tended to have Agricultural stations above them.

Industrial/High-Tech/Extraction/Refinery stations just showed up wherever.

Tourism stations often (but not always) showed up in systems containing Ammonia Worlds, but weren't necessarily orbiting the AW itself.

The coming patch applies a much more definite planetary influence than was ever used in the original 2014 procedural economy setup - and also quite a different one.

Could this fuzzy handling of colonising thicker atmospheres be a hint of a feature (thicker atmospheres) coming in the near-by future

That feels highly unlikely - especially since the planetary influence in the patch notes has no mention of only applying to non-landable planets.
(Which does imply that if we eventually do, it's unlikely to affect planetary economic influence)

 

[Pville_Piper]

Back before horizons, we had a oddity of the BGS having orbital stations doing their thing, be it mining/refinery/aggriculture, because of the planet they orbit.
The players didn't have access to those surface ports, only the orbital ports,but the BGS did.
When Horizons came online, we got to see a number of those planetary installations.
But those with an atmosphere just had "imagined" planetary ports and infrastructure for the BGS to play with to keep the orbital ports stocked with good from the surface.
With trailblazers colonisation we are now getting to see more of how this process has been designed.

Elite Dangerous | Trailblazers Update 3 - Wednesday April 30

Greetings Commanders, We will be releasing The Trailblazers Update 3 on Wednesday April 30. This update features a number of improvements to Colonisation economies and Powerplay merits, alongside a range of other fixes and improvements. Release Schedule (All times in UTC) 5AM - Servers...

forums.frontier.co.uk

The issue being is that we can not colonize planets with thick atmosphere as we can not land there (yet).
So is the solution: we stick to the previous convention of the BGS creates imaginary facilities built from handwavium and necessity on the planet which is stocking up the orbital station, even though we have not supplied materials for construction for those facilities or even chosen to construct them (because we physically can not do that....yet?)


What happens when we finally do have access to the planets with thicker atmospheres, 3 options

• kill off that strong link interaction when the surface is accessible because the imaginary surface facilities disappear in our colonised systems because we never built them.
• The strong link will generate an actual physical bonus planetary port for free on the planets with thicker atmospheres, one we did not choose to build or choose its location
• The strong link be maintained as a stacking bonus, boosting the numbers between the orbital and any new ports we build.

Could this fuzzy handling of colonising thicker atmospheres be a hint of a feature (thicker atmospheres) coming in the near-by future (Q4) when such colonisation actioning become more concrete

I doubt they will ever push thick atmospheric planets unless it can unlock new ways to play.

Ship interiors could add much more game play loops and could be worth the large amount of time and work it would take to develop that.

All the work that it would take to add weather, clouds, ect... Would be just window dressing, in and of itself, it might be more challenging to land a ship in weather, but that really doesn't add any real game play. Adding thick atmospheric planets would only add to the size of the playable area and I don't think that this is an issue with Elite.

 

[l12ngo]

I doubt they will ever push thick atmospheric planets unless it can unlock new ways to play.

Ship interiors could add much more game play loops and could be worth the large amount of time and work it would take to develop that.

All the work that it would take to add weather, clouds, ect... Would be just window dressing, in and of itself, it might be more challenging to land a ship in weather, but that really doesn't add any real game play. Adding thick atmospheric planets would only add to the size of the playable area and I don't think that this is an issue with Elite.

Strongly disagree. Exploring Earth like and Water worlds has to be one of the ultimate aims of a space based game. It opens up all the possibilities for development of any activity happening in sci fi or on earth - exploration, combat, commercial, empire building whatever. Compared to showing you the interior of your ship there seems little doubt which is the more exciting. It's like having the option of going on a world cruise or a tour of my flat.

I do agree it will be a challenge to implement correctly so it'll be ready when its ready but I do get sad when I'm flying around these beautiful planets and I'm unable to land on them. It also makes very little sense with regards to colonisation that the best worlds would ultimately be ignored. You could easily explain away why they've not been priority with some sort of concern about pathogens or whatnot until a breakthrough from a community goal opens up access to one particular new type of world (I assume they'd do one type of world at a time) but there surely has to be an endgame that the best worlds become available.

 

[Pville_Piper]

Strongly disagree. Exploring Earth like and Water worlds has to be one of the ultimate aims of a space based game. It opens up all the possibilities for development of any activity happening in sci fi or on earth - exploration, combat, commercial, empire building whatever. Compared to showing you the interior of your ship there seems little doubt which is the more exciting. It's like having the option of going on a world cruise or a tour of my flat.

I do agree it will be a challenge to implement correctly so it'll be ready when its ready but I do get sad when I'm flying around these beautiful planets and I'm unable to land on them. It also makes very little sense with regards to colonisation that the best worlds would ultimately be ignored. You could easily explain away why they've not been priority with some sort of concern about pathogens or whatnot until a breakthrough from a community goal opens up access to one particular new type of world (I assume they'd do one type of world at a time) but there surely has to be an endgame that the best worlds become available.

Now you are expanding the definition... He was talking about thick atmospheric planets, water worlds and earth likes would add greatly to the game, the issue there is how do you add mature cities to the game? And will the current game engine continue to work?

Simply adding a thick atmospheric world like an ammonia world wouldn't add much, unless you added the thargoid to it., now you could greatly add to the game.

Adding more gameplay should be the overriding goal of any expansion.

 

[l12ngo]

Ah then my apologies, I missed the nuance in your post. I agree a planet bereft of any other notable feature save from an atmosphere would provide little value to the game.

 

[Pville_Piper]

No worries...

 

[Woakes]

Personally I’m a walking around ships person, but thicker atmospheres.

The thing is the patch notes do state there are Bonuses to the economy with regards to starports in orbit of Earth-like and water worlds to the economy.
But without the need of building facilities on the planet.

But to get to earth-like and water with foliage, living creatures, livestock to worry about, not to mention housing and cities that cling along coastlines we can see from space with their lights twinkling when they go into the night-side.

worlds you need two stepping stones before the final hurdle. Cities and thicker atmospheres with the later being the easiest (in my head anyways)

I’m thinking dead worlds but bigger cities. It’s a “tiny” iteration for current game worlds, for mining, and more large-scale settlements to RPG in, more like actual cities, with roads between them, like the moon for example.
That fries my brain how that would even function.

The another thing on the lists of things required would be weather systems getting clouds and volcanism networked
Liquids sea, (for various components…like liquid methane seas and raining methan.). Planets with “thicker atmospheres”
Venus and titan for example.
Gas -giants for example is hard but it’s the easier step with regards to where odyssey is.

It’s as you say, it adds to the play area without too much additional gameplay.


But I think they are a necessary step one day Before they can execute earthlike and water worlds.

 

[Pville_Piper]

The thing is the patch notes do state there are Bonuses to the economy with regards to starports in orbit of Earth-like and water worlds to the economy.
But without the need of building facilities on the planet.

I built a Coriolis around a non-landable high metal content planet. Using the original way of the update, I, adr it a nice, high tech economy. Day one of patch 3, still high tech but with higher production rates.

Day 2... It's now an extraction economy. Not so crazy about the change.

The thing is, planet type is just a way of setting the influance to make a station type in the absence of any ground stations to influence the economy. It's just a game mechanic, I wouldn't read anything into it.

But to get to earth-like and water with foliage, living creatures, livestock to worry about, not to mention housing and cities that cling along coastlines we can see from space with their lights twinkling when they go into the night-side.

I guess you haven't noticed but earth Iikes do have lighted cities on the dark side...

worlds you need two stepping stones before the final hurdle. Cities and thicker atmospheres with the later being the easiest (in my head anyways)

I’m thinking dead worlds but bigger cities. It’s a “tiny” iteration for current game worlds, for mining, and more large-scale settlements to RPG in, more like actual cities, with roads between them, like the moon for example.
That fries my brain how that would even function.

One of the issues with the game is the shear size of it. Trying to procedurally build a convincing game space that doesn't get super repetitive over something the size of the bubble would be very time intensive, just the testing alone would be massive. You only have to look at the crazy stuff that happened in the early version of the game, Horizons and Odyssey to get the issues that would pop up.

Just look at the relatively minor issues with colonisation... Stations spawining inside of each other, ect...

People have been asking for the ability to land on the moon and visit the Apollo sites, they've said no, because according to lore the moon is covered in large cities.

I hate to be negative and would just love to be proven wrong but, I don't think we'll ever see that level of development in Elite.

Maybe some don't remember or haven't been around long enough, but when they redid the galaxy for Odyssey they stated that they would not be doing that again. I'm sure that redoing the galaxy with just Horizons assets was a major pain, now throw Odyssey and Trailblazers on top of that... Again, not saying it can't be done or even just confined to non-landable planets, but it will take massive time and development to pull it off.

The another thing on the lists of things required would be weather systems getting clouds and volcanism networked
Liquids sea, (for various components…like liquid methane seas and raining methan.). Planets with “thicker atmospheres”
Venus and titan for example.

These would all be cool, but don't add much more than window dressing. While I would welcome their inclusion, I would rather see honest gameplay added.

That being said, Elite is a visually stunning game and these would be awesome to see.

 

[Frankymole]

I doubt they will ever push thick atmospheric planets unless it can unlock new ways to play.

Ship interiors could add much more game play loops and could be worth the large amount of time and work it would take to develop that.

Footling around inside the rest of your ship provide more gameplay than entire worlds with cities, jungles, oceans, millions of NPCs and animals, plants, surface features, hazardous atmospheres/environments etc? Does not compute.

 

[Woakes]

I built a Coriolis around a non-landable high metal content planet. Using the original way of the update, I, adr it a nice, high tech economy. Day one of patch 3, still high tech but with higher production rates.

Day 2... It's now an extraction economy. Not so crazy about the change.

The thing is, planet type is just a way of setting the influance to make a station type in the absence of any ground stations to influence the economy. It's just a game mechanic, I wouldn't read anything into it.


I guess you haven't noticed but earth Iikes do have lighted cities on the dark side...


One of the issues with the game is the shear size of it. Trying to procedurally build a convincing game space that doesn't get super repetitive over something the size of the bubble would be very time intensive, just the testing alone would be massive. You only have to look at the crazy stuff that happened in the early version of the game, Horizons and Odyssey to get the issues that would pop up.

Just look at the relatively minor issues with colonisation... Stations spawining inside of each other, ect...

People have been asking for the ability to land on the moon and visit the Apollo sites, they've said no, because according to lore the moon is covered in large cities.

I hate to be negative and would just love to be proven wrong but, I don't think we'll ever see that level of development in Elite.

Maybe some don't remember or haven't been around long enough, but when they redid the galaxy for Odyssey they stated that they would not be doing that again. I'm sure that redoing the galaxy with just Horizons assets was a major pain, now throw Odyssey and Trailblazers on top of that... Again, not saying it can't be done or even just confined to non-landable planets, but it will take massive time and development to pull it off.


These would all be cool, but don't add much more than window dressing. While I would welcome their inclusion, I would rather see honest gameplay added.

That being said, Elite is a visually stunning game and these would be awesome to see.

No,no,no, you miss understood, I totally agree, that’s what I meant with lights from the cities on the night side.
They mesmerized me since the launch of the game with the thought, how the eff are they going to pull that off.
Making an actual city…then multiples of them and infrastructure?
Yeah forest and dinosaurs way easier.
Subnautica water worlds piece of (just a few years to build an entire new game….rofl)

 

[Pville_Piper]

Footling around inside the rest of your ship provide more gameplay than entire worlds with cities, jungles, oceans etc? Does not compute.

Read all the posts, the OP only stated thick atmospheres, not even hinting at earth likes and water worlds. To that I responding to. In a later post I clarified that it was thick atmospheres and not EL or WW.

 

[Pville_Piper]

No,no,no, you miss understood, I totally agree, that’s what I meant with lights from the cities on the night side.
They mesmerized me since the launch of the game with the thought, how the eff are they going to pull that off.
Making an actual city…then multiples of them and infrastructure?
Yeah forest and dinosaurs way easier.
Subnautica water worlds piece of (just a few years to build an entire new game….rofl)

Me too, I don't know how many times I've slowed down when near an earth like as the night side approached and pondered...

 

[Frankymole]

No,no,no, you miss understood, I totally agree, that’s what I meant with lights from the cities on the night side.
They mesmerized me since the launch of the game with the thought, how the eff are they going to pull that off.
Making an actual city…then multiples of them and infrastructure?
Yeah forest and dinosaurs way easier.
Subnautica water worlds piece of (just a few years to build an entire new game….rofl)

Well, how long has SC taken to make Squadron 42?

 

[Vasco Sapien]

If Frontiers new feature included the bumping up of the landable worlds into something heavier with thicker atmos.... dare i even say some sort of surface liquid.
Doesnt have to be Earth likes. Windy, stormy Alien worlds, maybe with something a little more complex going on surface wise. (even if its a for cash DLC).

That would be a new phase of play investment from me, including buying ARX / DLC.

Frontier can make money selling paintjobs and spoilers.... or they can bump the game into the next gear.