Third person view

[Eleuth]

I know it is mentioned allready, but as a reminder I would really like to ask for a third person view while walking.
For people suffering very quicly from motion sickness the game is unplayable in closed rooms and hallways.
I know it is kind of a dogma for a lot of players (no third person view) but it hinders the playing of this game.
Even if the devs would implement it as poorly as the third person view in ships, I would be happy and could start playing missions

 

[varonica]

I know it is mentioned allready, but as a reminder I would really like to ask for a third person view while walking.
For people suffering very quicly from motion sickness the game is unplayable in closed rooms and hallways.
I know it is kind of a dogma for a lot of players (no third person view) but it hinders the playing of this game.
Even if the devs would implement it as poorly as the third person view in ships, I would be happy and could start playing missions

You won't ever get 3rd person view in fps combat, the 3rd person view provides an advantage to the player so they can so over or around objects a person in 1st person couldn't, so it's either all 1st person or all 3rd person, not a combination of the two.

 

[Eleuth]

Well, I'm not interested in combat, So maybe they can change the view when you get into combat (like the third personview exit when entering Hyperspace)
Executing a normal delivering mission, searching for a box,or just exploring the building without the irrepressible urge to shoot and kill everybody who is nearby is playable in third person and gives no advantage to anybody.

 

[JTFireblaze]

When I play No Man's Sky I go 3rd person on foot, 1st in ship. Just feels natural to me.

For Elite I can see the appeal of being in 3rd person while exploring with the option to toggle into 1st person. Maybe there were limitations like you can only use weapons in 1st so you don't get situational awareness advantages.

It'd be quite nice to see your character walking around so you can admire their outfit too. Or in social hub areas where combat isn't allowed, if they added animations, seating, all that social stuff.

I guess you can sort of play in 3rd using the camera suite, but it's far from ideal...

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

I wish that the TP option was in game as it would make my life companion more likely to play ED with me as she doesn't like FPS, but loves most TP game! I believe it has to do with her being a bit prone to motion sickness, as OP mentionned.

On a less selfish note, I understand the reasoning about TP view giving an advantage over FP view, but I'm on the side of those who think it's a moot point since every player could make use of such an "advantage".

There are many concerns around the notion of every player having the same chances, like the type of controllers you use, battles including Ships and SRVs, how smooth the game runs on your platform whether you play on a PS4 or a PC with a GTX1060 or a RTX3080, how fast your connection is. Also to me, EDO is not an actual FPS ; that's just one aspect, one layer that makes the space simulation more immersive, and diversify its universe and gameplay. I don't care too much about ED becoming a reference in FPS gaming, as long as it's solid, ie good balancing of weapons, precise hitbox, etc.

As a compromise, I feel the idea of forcing FP view when holding a weapon or perhaps when in a combat zone (probably doable though not that easily) could be a good way to address some concerns.

 

[Craith]

I know it is mentioned allready, but as a reminder I would really like to ask for a third person view while walking.
For people suffering very quicly from motion sickness the game is unplayable in closed rooms and hallways.
I know it is kind of a dogma for a lot of players (no third person view) but it hinders the playing of this game.
Even if the devs would implement it as poorly as the third person view in ships, I would be happy and could start playing missions

There already exists the 3rd person view - I had to bind the key for external camera (and couldn't use the same as for the ship part), but I could run around and even shoot in this view. It also works real VR, not some virtual screen like the regular on foot part.

You can't interact, but for walking around without motion sickness (or just for screenshots) it should work fine.

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

There already exists the 3rd person view - I had to bind the key for external camera (and couldn't use the same as for the ship part), but I could run around and even shoot in this view. It also works real VR, not some virtual screen like the regular on foot part.

You can't interact, but for walking around without motion sickness (or just for screenshots) it should work fine.

In an empty environment, like in your screenshot, it's an ok solution ; rest of the time (in station for instance), the camera suite goes dark too often to make it enjoyable or even acceptable as a workaround for TP view. If the camera suite would deal with object or terrain collision a bit more elegantly, I suppose it would be the solution.

 

[Chaparral]

You won't ever get 3rd person view in fps combat, the 3rd person view provides an advantage to the player so they can so over or around objects a person in 1st person couldn't, so it's either all 1st person or all 3rd person, not a combination of the two.

You are not wrong for the combat, but what about scavenging, being a courier or exploring? These are more sight/environment experiences than LOS advantage gaining experiences. Do you think a 3rd person view would be workable in those experiences?

It appears that the walking animations are tight enough to manage it (Cyberpunk 2077 motion is janky when you look at your shadow, Mass effect Andromeda had its issues too).

 

[Lugh]

It's a lot more work than just moving the cameras position and at this point wouldn't increases the marketability enough from fdevs pov.

If you have learned anything when it comes to fdev no matter the title QOL and even gameplay come second to marketability.

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

It appears that the walking animations are tight enough to manage it (Cyberpunk 2077 motion is janky when you look at your shadow, Mass effect Andromeda had its issues too).

I remember Fallout 3, Oblivion and some others were playable in TP view as well as in FP view.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I remember Fallout 3, Oblivion and some others were playable in TP view as well as in FP view.

but those are single player games...

The bigger issue, is that if TP is added, then this forces everyone that wants to do combat, expecially in PvP scenarios, to use TP... the advantage TP gives over FP in combat is HUGE. The camera suite is bad enough...

I do get that you would see no problem with everyone using TP, but what do you say to those who prefer FP? as this despite how much you try to coat this in sugar, will affect them too.

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

but those are single player games...

The bigger issue, is that if TP is added, then this forces everyone that wants to do combat, expecially in PvP scenarios, to use TP... the advantage TP gives over FP in combat is HUGE. The camera suite is bad enough...

I do get that you would see no problem with everyone using TP, but what do you say to those who prefer FP? as this despite how much you try to coat this in sugar, will affect them too.

How am I coating anything? What's true is I don't have a problem with Elite Dangerous not being a pure hardcore FPS. And it's not going to be, because as you say, we already have the camera suite. Are you suggesting we should remove or disable it in some occasion?

If we were talking about an actual competitive gameplay with strict rules, I would totally understand the need to stick to FP view like some other hardcore FPS. But we're talking of a game in which you can kill reinforcements by flying your Cobra MKIII into them as soon as they leave the dropship. Elite Dangerous can't be a hardcore FPS without drastically changing its philosophy and putting artificial limits.

The primary reason I mentionned those games was because it was somehow induced that you couldn't have both. Yet there are many games that had both, even multiplayer games.

As it was proposed earlier, it could be that the FP view would be mandatory in combat zone, or as soon as you're wearing a weapon. I remember in Jedi Knights Outcast, there was an option that would automatically switch to TP view when wielding a lightsaber, and back to FP view for anything else. It worked also for Multiplayer. That was the rules of that game, and everybody was ok with it. It didn't prevent any fun. And the way I remember it, TP view did have its drawbacks, like camera handling in the heat of the battle could be much less convenient than the FP view. So, many things are possible and enjoyable without breaking the fun.

 

[Misty_Dark]

How am I coating anything? What's true is I don't have a problem with Elite Dangerous not being a pure hardcore FPS. And it's not going to be, because as you say, we already have the camera suite. Are you suggesting we should remove or disable it in some occasion?

If we were talking about an actual competitive gameplay with strict rules, I would totally understand the need to stick to FP view like some other hardcore FPS. But we're talking of a game in which you can kill reinforcements by flying your Cobra MKIII into them as soon as they leave the dropship. Elite Dangerous can't be a hardcore FPS without drastically changing its philosophy and putting artificial limits.

The primary reason I mentionned those games was because it was somehow induced that you couldn't have both. Yet there are many games that had both, even multiplayer games.

As it was proposed earlier, it could be that the FP view would be mandatory in combat zone, or as soon as you're wearing a weapon. I remember in Jedi Knights Outcast, there was an option that would automatically switch to TP view when wielding a lightsaber, and back to FP view for anything else. It worked also for Multiplayer. That was the rules of that game, and everybody was ok with it. It didn't prevent any fun. And the way I remember it, TP view did have its drawbacks, like camera handling in the heat of the battle could be much less convenient than the FP view. So, many things are possible and enjoyable without breaking the fun.

so what about TP when driving SRV and TP when flying your ship then? IO mean if you are pushing for TP for on foot stuff, then why not have it everywhere then? I rfemember al thre critique when we got the "arcady" TP view when playing as a gunner in multicrew...


But comparing single player games with multiplayer games regarding this is bad comparisons and I do see where you got any impression that it could not be done... And then there is the artistic design from the developer, that yes you could technically play their game in FP or TP, but the DEVELOPER have decided that you are only play it the way they have envisioned this game to be experienced , and that might be FP only or TP only, and other developers give the player the choice. Neither option is right or wrong. I have rejected games since they are TP only, that is my choice and I know other players have rejected games because they are FP only.

 

[JTFireblaze]

Arma, a hardcore milsim with flying, wheeled, aquatic and on foot gameplay offered both 1st and 3rd person. Sure there were probably some servers that only allowed 1st person. Microsoft Flight Simulator - one of the top dogs in the flight sim genre, they offer 3rd person toggle modes too. So I wouldn't attribute 3rd person to "arcady". The gunner role in multicrew in my opinion is a necessary gameplay concession. I can't think of a way that a player could control all the available turrets without it.

There are definitely advantages to 3rd person mode - better spacial awareness is probably one of the best. But if everyone had access to it, then nobody would be locked out of having the advantage.

Sure there are some reasons why a 3rd person mode might take some effort. Camera clipping and such - probably why our camera suite "drones" will lose signal when clipping instead of just hitting a boundary box (although there is clearly collision detection around the ship, the player, the SRV...). However it's not like a third person mode can't be added, it's not like other games have struggled with the camera programming.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, maybe it's a case that when your weapon is drawn you could be locked to 1st person. That way you don't get that advantage in combat situations but you'd still be able to explore and visit social areas in third person, which would allow the player to be more aware of their surroundings and see more in exploring mode and allow the player to see their avatar in social hubs. Would lead the way to some social interactions - emotes and animations that can add to the RP gameplay in those areas.

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

so what about TP when driving SRV and TP when flying your ship then? IO mean if you are pushing for TP for on foot stuff, then why not have it everywhere then?

I believe the reason TP is pushed for on foot is because that's when motion sickness is most probable to occur for people who are prone to it. When in a cockpit, it's not or less of a problem. Now if you ask me, I personnally wouldn't have minded having TP for every mode of locomotion, just for the sheer pleasure of watching my ship doing its thing in a more cinematic way. Well the camera suite does the trick most of the time. TP for ships wouldn't be pushed for accessibility reason, I believe ; but I may be wrong.

I rfemember al thre critique when we got the "arcady" TP view when playing as a gunner in multicrew...

Yeah, as always when there are changes. But the real question is not : did people get angry with the change ? but rather : did people get used to it ? Are they enjoying it today ? or : are there some who didn't like it that now can live with it or even enjoy it and realize it's not "such a big deal" ? It's not as if that type of gameplay was forced onto you. But that's a different subject. People being unhappy with something they didn't expect is not an argument per say. That's just how life is.

But comparing single player games with multiplayer games regarding this is bad comparisons

Except, there are multiplayer games that does both TP and FP, and it has nothing to do with them being multi or single, but with design choices... And development time costs which is more often than not the real reason behind most rationalization of design choices. Comparing Single Player Only or Multi Player Only games to ED is bad comparison in any case, since ED isn't a pure MP game nor a pure SP game. Unless it has changed, CZ are accessible in Solo.

and I do see where you got any impression that it could not be done...

Because it has been done with multiplayers too, and because it has nothing to do with it being multi or single, but only with the type of gameplay designers wish to offer. Rest is just rationalizing opinions to make it look like it's more than just an opinion. Especially when it comes to ED, where the multiplayer part was more designed as an anti-piracy dongle than an actual gameplay design. Not to say that multiplayer in ED is bad, but it's really not at the heart of the game. People make something of it despite how it's been implemented.

And then there is the artistic design from the developer, that yes you could technically play their game in FP or TP, but the DEVELOPER have decided that you are only play it the way they have envisioned this game to be experienced , and that might be FP only or TP only, and other developers give the player the choice. Neither option is right or wrong.

That's the only argument on which I agree : design choices. And that's what's actually being discussed. And I think the point some of us are trying to make is that since design choices in Elite Dangerous are not consistent with a pure FPS approach, you could very well have a TP view. Although I think most of today's limitations or flaws (like camera suite going black during collision) have more to do with cost control than design choices. I know it could be argued the same for the gunner view in ships.

I have rejected games since they are TP only, that is my choice and I know other players have rejected games because they are FP only.

ok, but this is going a bit off topic; so far, only the FP people are advocating for an FP only view. People asking for TP would be fine with having both, it seems. Personnally I don't care about it being FP only ; I probably would like it better if the game had both. Even moreso since I just happen to live with someone who finds it uncomfortable playing in FP view and has always favored TP games, which made me realize there were actual comfort issues for some people, which is a thing I had been unaware of for years.

 

[Fenice59]

Io sono innamorata di Elite Dangerous da sempre. Però sono anche una persona che ama vedere riprodotto nei giochi di simulazione un certo realismo. Odyssey ci permette di uscire dalle nostre navi stellari in prima e terza persona. Sto provando la versione Alpha di Odyssey che ho pre-acquistato. Ebbene il mio attuale verdetto in merito ad Odyssey non è così positivo. A parte il discorso che non è ancora possibile utilizzarlo in VR se non che venendo a compromessi tipo, in visuale prima persona usi il visore visualizzandone il desktop e torni in VR una volta a bordo delle navi stellari. Ma non è questo, del resto David Braben ci ha avvisato che la VR non era al momento implementata, ma piuttosto il sistema delle visuali esterne. INGUARDABILI come pure le animazioni del personaggio. Per non parlare del fatto che si corre, si corre, ... si corre sempre! Ma nella vita reale che fate, correte sempre? Anche al supermercato, in casa, in ufficio ecc .. oppure "CAMMINATE?" - Le visuali esterne qui sono "INGIOCABILI". Ma ci vuole tanto a prendere spunto da "RED DEAD REDEPTIONO 2?" Io mi auguro vivamente che il team di Elite Dangerous riveda tutto il discorso visuale "terza persona" e si allinei alle visuali del sopra citato RDR2. Noi dobbiamo uscire dalle nostre navi e poter prima di tutto "camminare" e correre solo quando serve. In secondo luogo dobbiamo avere la possibilità mentre camminiamo o combattiamo, di gestire le visuali in terza persona direttamente con gli assi del mouse. Il tutto mentre ci muoviamo. Dalla terza persona in RDR2 basta cliccare con il tasto preposto per entrare nella vista del mirino e rilasciando il tasto si torna in terza persona, COMODISSIMO! Non serve avere 5 o 6 visuali angolate del nostro avatar scomodissime come avviene adesso in Odyssey. E poi le animazioni. Quelle non sono persone, ma burattini legnosi. Da Elite Dangerous mi aspetto molto di più e mi auguro davvero che rivedano tutto il progetto in maniera approfondita, o rischiano di fare FLOP.

Vi rimando ad un mio filmato. Notate la differenza sia nelle animazioni che del sistema di visuale in terza persona.

Fenice59 - [MEDIA = facebook] 5247917081916665 [/ MEDIA]
Fonte: https://www.facebook.com/105317907540897/videos/5247917081916665

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

Io sono innamorata di Elite Dangerous da sempre. Però sono anche una persona che ama vedere riprodotto nei giochi di simulazione un certo realismo. Odyssey ci permette di uscire dalle nostre navi stellari in prima e terza persona. Sto provando la versione Alpha di Odyssey che ho pre-acquistato. Ebbene il mio attuale verdetto in merito ad Odyssey non è così positivo. A parte il discorso che non è ancora possibile utilizzarlo in VR se non che venendo a compromessi tipo, in visuale prima persona usi il visore visualizzandone il desktop e torni in VR una volta a bordo delle navi stellari. Ma non è questo, del resto David Braben ci ha avvisato che la VR non era al momento implementata, ma piuttosto il sistema delle visuali esterne. INGUARDABILI come pure le animazioni del personaggio. Per non parlare del fatto che si corre, si corre, ... si corre sempre! Ma nella vita reale che fate, correte sempre? Anche al supermercato, in casa, in ufficio ecc .. oppure "CAMMINATE?" - Le visuali esterne che io ho sempre adorato, creano il gioco "INGIOCABILE". Ma ci vuole tanto a prendere spunto da "RED DEAD REDEPTIONO 2?" Io mi auguro vivamente che il team di Elite Dangerous riveda tutto il discorso visuale "terza persona" e si allinei alle visuali del sopra citato RDR2. Noi dobbiamo uscire dalle nostre navi e poter prima di tutto "camminare" e correre solo quando serve. In secondo luogo dobbiamo avere la possibilità mentre camminiamo o combattiamo, di gestire le visuali in terza persona direttamente con gli assi del mouse. Il tutto mentre ci muoviamo. Vi rimanderò ad un link della mia pagina Facebook dove potrete visualizzare un filmato da me creato in cui vedrete le animazioni di RDR2. Confrontatele con Odyssey e poi piangete come me. Dalla terza persona in RDR2 basta cliccare con il tasto preposto per entrare nella vista del mirino e rilasciando il tasto si torna in terza persona, COMODISSIMO! Non serve avere 5 o 6 visuali angolate del nostro avatar scomodissime come avviene adesso in Odyssey. E poi le animazioni. Quelle non sono persone, ma burattini legnosi. Da Elite Dangerous mi aspetto molto di più e mi auguro davvero che rivedano tutto il progetto in maniera approfondita, o rischiano di fare FLOP. Dalla terza persona in RDR2 basta cliccare con il tasto preposto per entrare nella vista del mirino e rilasciando il tasto si torna in terza persona, COMODISSIMO! Non serve avere 5 o 6 visuali angolate del nostro avatar scomodissime come avviene adesso in Odyssey. E poi le animazioni. Quelle non sono persone, ma burattini legnosi. Da Elite Dangerous mi aspetto molto di più e mi auguro davvero che rivedano tutto il progetto in maniera approfondita, o rischiano di fare FLOP. Dalla terza persona in RDR2 basta cliccare con il tasto preposto per entrare nella vista del mirino e rilasciando il tasto si torna in terza persona, COMODISSIMO! Non serve avere 5 o 6 visuali angolate del nostro avatar scomodissime come avviene adesso in Odyssey. E poi le animazioni. Quelle non sono persone, ma burattini legnosi. Da Elite Dangerous mi aspetto molto di più e mi auguro davvero che rivedano tutto il progetto in maniera approfondita, o rischiano di fare FLOP.

Fenice59 -

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=5247917081916665

Source: https://www.facebook.com/105317907540897/videos/5247917081916665

If I remember correctly, Red Dead Redemption is a TP only game and has a much more specialized gameplay than ED, so the comparison isn't fair. It makes sense that RDR would be much more polished than ED, since the scope is narrower. It aims at a more cinematic experience.

The always running mode we have is to make the game smoother, faster. But I agree there should be some walking (maybe there is, I haven't played the alpha long enough to know). The animation are not the best of the industry, but again it's just one aspect of a game that is about flying spaceships and exploring the milky way amongst other things. It cannot be as polished as RDR on every aspect of its gameplay. This may evolve in future updates.

 

[Fenice59]

E che lo facciano nei futuri aggiornamenti poiché d'accordo che è un gioco basato sull'esplorazione e il combattimento con astronavi, ma se si decide che dobbiamo scendere dalle navi, allora deve essere tutto ben curato e ben inserito nella simulazione stessa. Altrimenti è meglio non farci scendere dalle navi. Se si è deciso che Odyssey deve farci uscire dalle navi e camminare nelle stazioni, sui pianeti e si deve combattere in prima e terza persona, allora si deve fare il tutto in modo curato. Posso aspettarmi quello che praticamente vediamo in terza persona adesso in Odyssey in giochi di basso livello, ma non da ELite Dangerous. Io mi auguro vivamente che mettano mano alle visuali e alle animazioni e aggiungano la camminata. Non basta a giustificare quelle orribili animazioni e visuali solo col fatto che è basato su un simulatore stellare in cui si pilotano astronavi. Un simile progetto su Elite Dangerous o lo si fa bene o si lascia stare.

Fenice59

 

[CMDR Larmakosa]

E che lo facciano nei futuri aggiornamenti poiché d'accordo che è un gioco basato sull'esplorazione e il combattimento con astronavi, ma se si decide che dobbiamo scendere dalle navi, allora deve essere tutto ben curato e ben inserito nella simulazione stessa. Altrimenti è meglio non farci scendere dalle navi. Se si è deciso che Odyssey deve farci uscire dalle navi e camminare nelle stazioni, sui pianeti e si deve combattere in prima e terza persona, allora si deve fare il tutto in modo curato. Posso aspettarmi quello che praticamente vediamo in terza persona adesso in Odyssey in giochi di basso livello, ma non da ELite Dangerous. Io mi auguro vivamente che mettano mano alle visuali e alle animazioni e aggiungano la camminata. Non basta a giustificare quelle orribili animazioni e visuali solo col fatto che è basato su un simulatore stellare in cui si pilotano astronavi. Un simile progetto su Elite Dangerous o lo si fa bene o si lascia stare.

Fenice59

Anyway, the onfoot experience of EDO isn't sold as a TP experience, but as an FP experience. The current TP view is just a side effects of having the camera suite to make vanity shots, but the actual gameplay is in FP mode. So we can't really complain about the quality of the TP gameplay, since there's no such thing per say.

The reason for this thread is to request a proper TP view, especially for those are uncomfortable with FP view, not to complain about the current quality of the TP view as it's not an actual feature. I personnally am fine with the current level of quality. Of course I'd love to have more, and it would be wonderful to be on par with RDR, but I have to be realistic in my expectations. RDR had to focus on just one handcrafted map and type of gameplay; it's not the same kind of product. The level of quality of RDR applied to ED would multiply the workload by at least 10 for Fdev, since the game has to deal with much more varied situations. And even for games in similar genres as RDR, how many of them can actually get close to that level of details and polish ?

One of the reasons I suppose Fdev didn't want to deal with TP gameplay is not so much a problem of game design, than the matter of having the time and resource to polish it as expected. They already had to implement all the different mechanics of the game (locations, apex, gears, missions, combat zones, flora, atmosphere, ground generation, etc.), and I think they do a great job given the intimidating scope of the release.

 

[Fenice59]

Quello che dici mi sta bene in parte. Ovviamente io esprimo una mia opinione personale e la espongo. Non pretendo da ED una grafica a livelli di RDR, come dici tu sono due progetti con aspetti molto differenti. Magari come dici tu, essendo ancora una fase Alpha del gioco può essere che le animazioni e le visuali cambino con l'uscita di nuove patch, e lo spero davvero. Ma se non fosse così, se quello che ho visto provando l'Alpha resterà invariato, allora resterei davvero delusa. Io non critico badate bene. I miei sono suggerimenti e spero che i produttori li leggano perché non è la prima volta che suggerisco idee a produttori di simulazioni. L'ho fatto recentemente con DCS World, richiedendo di implementare sia piloti al femminile nelle cabine dei vari aerei ed elicotteri, sia le comunicazioni radio al femminile e tutti i personaggi visibili che si caricano a bordo degli elicotteri, quindi medici, feriti, soldati ecc. Mi sono lamentata per mesi di queste "gravi" mancanze e loro mi hanno risposto. Lo ha fatto uno degli sviluppatori, dicendomi che l'idea dei piloti al femminile e della comunicazione al femminile, era una cosa a cui non avevano mai pensato prima e che gli piaceva e sicuramente l'avrebbe portata ed esposta in una delle loro riunioni. Questo significa che noi, possiamo suggerire loro come migliorare il loro prodotto. Forse l'idea di implementare gli assi del mouse per la visuale in terza persona non gli è neanche passata per la mente, e magari leggendoci ci rifletteranno e cambieranno sistema. Noi qui che ci stiamo a fare se nei forum non diamo loro dei suggerimenti importanti e funzionali? Quindi non mi tiro indietro dal mettere in evidenza quelli che secondo me sono veri e odiosi difetti di progettazione e non accetto tutto quello che ci hanno proposto visto che alla fine sono io come voi a comprare il prodotto finito. Concludo stavolta sul serio o mi uccidete, che ok nasce con l'idea di implementare il gioco in prima persona e non in terza persona, ma giocando in prima persona vedremmo comunque gli avatar degli altri giocatori così come li visualizziamo adesso in TP. Quindi legnosi, scattosi e che corrono ovunque forsennatamente. Tutto davvero poco entusiasmante.

Questo è solo il mio personale punto di vista.

Fenice59