Newcomer / Intro This seems counter-intuitive

[Caty_Feila]

After more than a month doing bounty hunting cursing my thrusters for not being powerful enough, I realized that when I am pursuing a target and he starts pitching up, if I thrust down I align with the target faster than if I thrust up.
Why is it so?
I seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

[Ashnak]

Think 3d... I think. By thrusting down while pitching up you increase the radius of the turn cycle and thereby the distance to the target, which reduces the angle through which you need to turn.

 

[Rick6549]

Because youre both turning towards eachother instead of you trying to keep up with him

 

[Caty_Feila]

Sorry guys, but I still don't see it.

 

[Dommarraa]

Sorry guys, but I still don't see it.

It's real 3d mechanics, not just game numberwang.

 

[Ianovic]

When turning keep your speed in the "blue zone", that is the ideal for fast turning.

My logic about it: full trottle just pushes you forward, medium (blue) gives less forward speed but gives more power to the up/down thrusters.

 

[wetwire]

@Ashnak is right. Just using the direction of the craft as Up/Down description.
Think of it this way.

When you thrust "down" while pitching up you are pushing into the turn (keeping close to the target) * Slowing down your turn
When you thrust "up" you are pushing with the pitch making your turn wider. (keeping distance to the target) * Speeding up your turn

Clarification to how i'm describing up/down: Thrust Down, Bottom thursters active on the ship. Thrust Up, Top thrusters active on the ship.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

He pitches up - decreases distances to you over time. You throttle down - decrease your turn radius so you can keep closure rate. Imagine you chase a car. It enters curve. If you don't slow down your speed will end up in greater curve radius and you'll "overshoot". Or get carried from the road but just imagine plain tarmac plane.

 

[Caty_Feila]

Think 3d... I think. By thrusting down while pitching up you increase the radius of the turn cycle and thereby the distance to the target, which reduces the angle through which you need to turn.

But if I increase the radius of the turn, it should take me longer to have the target back in view. That's not what happens.
When I pitch up and thrust down I acquire the target back on view faster.

 

[Caty_Feila]

Clarification to how i'm describing up/down: Thrust Down, Bottom thursters active on the ship. Thrust Up, Top thrusters active on the ship.

I don't think so.
When you are docked and want to take off, don't you thrust up?
In your clarification, if you thrust up then top thrusters will activate and push you down against the ground.

 

[Ashnak]

By increasing the radius of the turn, you are also increasing the distance to the target. And the larger your distance to the target, the smaller is the angle you need to turn through.

 

[wetwire]

I don't think so.
When you are docked and want to take off, don't you thrust up?
In your clarification, if you thrust up then top thrusters will activate and push you down against the ground.

thats why i clarified how i was using the terms. you can think of thrusting up as pushing the ship up. i was just referring to which thrusters activate.

I can rephrase if you like.

When you thrust "up" while pitching up you are pushing into the turn (keeping close to the target) * Slowing down your turn
When you thrust "down" you are pushing with the pitch making your turn wider. (keeping distance to the target) * Speeding up your turn

 

[Ashnak]

I don't think so.
When you are docked and want to take off, don't you thrust up?
In your clarification, if you thrust up then top thrusters will activate and push you down against the ground.

He activates the bottom thrusters, and is therefore thrusting up in the conventional language here on the forum. But not everyone (me neither) is a native speaker here, so I appreciate his clarification.

 

[Hell Razor5543]

On most ships the bottom thrusters are more powerful, so as to counter the force of gravity when you are close to a planet.

If you keep the throttle within the blue zone the craft is far more manoeuvrable than with the throttle at full. An aeroplane will take far longer to make a U turn at full speed than at half speed.

Something else to consider (and, as far as I know, is enabled within Elite: Dangerous) is that a Pilot can handle far more positive G forces than negative ones. If a Pilot pulls a loop with his head INSIDE the loop he can take a high G force, but will eventually 'Black Out' (as blood is forced away from his brain). However, if the same Pilot pulls a similar loop but with his head OUTSIDE of the loop he can only handle about 1/3 of the G force and will 'Red Out' (with blood forced into his brain).

 

[Ashnak]

On most ships the bottom thrusters are more powerful, so as to counter the force of gravity when you are close to a planet.

If you keep the throttle within the blue zone the craft is far more manoeuvrable than with the throttle at full. An aeroplane will take far longer to make a U turn at full speed than at half speed.

Please, please, please... forget about the aeroplane analogy here.
Yes, with FA on, the ships in ED at least make an attempt at behaving similar to conventional airplanes - but they don't. And airplanes usually don't have directional thrusters (in before someone mentions thrust vectoring or the Harrier - two other kettles of fish, honestly).

 

[wetwire]

This is the closest diagram of what your describing as being counter-intuitive. "Thrusting up" in this context is how @Caty_Feila is viewing it. "up being the direction of the craft"

 

[wetwire]

If your speed is constant during a positive pitch loop and your thrusting away from the center (ie top thrusters active) your loop seems wider.

This diagram pulled from the KSP game helps shows what happens when you thrust away from the center of the loop.
Assuming your ship is the manuver node shown in the picture. Heading to the top of the image, and the top of your ship is facing the planet (center of the loop / Purple dot) and thrust "down" (activate top thrusters) * away from the center

The inverse of that maneuver would push you closer to the center during the loop.
Visualized if you are the blue icon at the top-left, opposite of the maneuver node. Head to the bottom of the picture and are thrusting into the turn.

 

[Caty_Feila]

When you are docked and you want to leave you thrust up or down?

When you are pursuing a target and the target pitches up do you pitch up and thrust up or pitch up and thrust down?

 

[Ethaidan]

It's sort of like being able to add a bit of directionally controlled drift or skid to your pitch - have you've ever been snowmobiling on a frozen lake, or boating in shallow-V hull with a decent engine? If you're having a hard time visualising it, go to a station (not a Coriolis) and do tight high speed vertical runs around the narrowest section, then add down thrusters to the turn - you'll see how your turn radius is affected, and how the centre point of your turn is affected. Compare that to how adding up thrusters affects the same. Now add the direction of travel of your prey.

 

[Thwarptide]

What kind of ship are you flying?
What size thrusters are fitted in the ship?
Have you done any engineering to them yet?