this vain illusion of endless space...

[MatthiB]

that its creators are so fond of holds back its potential from the beginning.

Hi guys,

I want to say in advance, I'm a mature player who played the original Elite back in the 80s and also Elite Frontier and I played many of the space combat sims that came out over the years. I haven't yet checked out this game, but I guess I will soon. I'm a fan of sandbox games that don't force a story or an image onto you and are not sensationalistic in their nature like so many games today.

to the point: I understand that exploration is part of Elite, but I never bought the hype of endless space. What does that do for the game? We all know it's just procedurally generated. I could aswell check out the generator and the assets that it compiles. It always bugged me about Elite that it plays this card. After all it's just a game and a game world imo shouldn't be bigger than the substantial content it has to offer, or it becomes a string of endless repetition. And why would I want to explore that further?

I'd rather have a couple of well-designed systems with some more generically to explore where the game shows all its offerings. Doing so would make Elite sharper, more attractive to a larger player base that is currently turned off by the game's emptiness and lengthy character.

 

[YinYin]

It does not play that card.

It plays the card of simulating our galaxy (and all the content inside) to scale.

Also all known stellar objects are recreated, not exactly just procedurally generated. They are specifically placed.

edit: also the inhabited human space bubble is just the right size, pretty small compared to the galaxy - you won't be having trouble with it being too large for engaging with most of the game content. And wouldn't it feel rather weird if everything related to exploring was just a quick hyper jump away?

 

[azdour]

For sure exploring needs more love given to it by Frontier and I hope that in comes in time, but if you have seen some of the stunning screen shots that our intrepid explorers post here you can see that the 'procedural' side of exploring can be visually stunning.

Why do people climb mountains - because its there, why should people explore endless space because it's there.

Exploring is just one part of Elite - if you do not like it you are free to do something else, pirate, smuggle, bounty hunt or join in the wars and factions

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The immersion of venturing out a long way away from civilization.
Procedural sometimes throws a curveball and you encounter weird and wonderful systems. You'll see many samey systems, but there are gems to be found.
Because they are procedural generated, the galaxy becomes like a box of chocolates.
Trekking a long way doesn't come without consequences. As you may have noticed, people are requesting second accounts just because of this. You plan trips in measures of weeks or even months.

These are a couple of very subjective motivators that might as well do nothing for you, but some people do get hooked on exploring the actual unknown, instead of browsing what the developers have set up for you.

And I'd not be so quick to label the idea of a designed galaxy more attractive to a larger player base. I'd like to see some support for that claim first.

 

[dannysquid]

that its creators are so fond of holds back its potential from the beginning.

Hi guys,

I want to say in advance, I'm a mature player who played the original Elite back in the 80s and also Elite Frontier and I played many of the space combat sims that came out over the years. I haven't yet checked out this game, but I guess I will soon. I'm a fan of sandbox games that don't force a story or an image onto you and are not sensationalistic in their nature like so many games today.

to the point: I understand that exploration is part of Elite, but I never bought the hype of endless space. What does that do for the game? We all know it's just procedurally generated. I could aswell check out the generator and the assets that it compiles. It always bugged me about Elite that it plays this card. After all it's just a game and a game world imo shouldn't be bigger than the substantial content it has to offer, or it becomes a string of endless repetition. And why would I want to explore that further?

I'd rather have a couple of well-designed systems with some more generically to explore where the game shows all its offerings. Doing so would make Elite sharper, more attractive to a larger player base that is currently turned off by the game's emptiness and lengthy character.

It's the argument of procedurally-generated vs hand-made. Hand-made wins in nearly every way (gameplay, looks, detail, story etc...) BUT if you haven't tried it the ENORMOUS scale of ELITE is a powerful thing. There's an epic-ness to even the simplest stuff and there's something quite powerful about being in the middle of nowhere looking at something nobody else has ever seen.

Creating a whole galaxy is a huge achievement, and although I think you're basically right in what you say, I still love Elite to bits. It's got a special something. And it's not like you're only allowed to buy one space sim!

 

[YinYin]

Hand-made wins in nearly every way (gameplay, looks, detail, story etc...)

I think that's only true as of now because it's been done to death and honed to all kinds of insane qualities. Procedural generation just hasn't been pushed often enough in any of these categories. Once there is enough accumulated skill and knowledge in creating equally good procedural generation it will trump hand made simply by only requiring the push of a button on a finished algorythm to generate a new experience instead of years of extra work.

 

[Tarman]

I think that's only true as of now because it's been done to death and honed to all kinds of insane qualities. Procedural generation just hasn't been pushed often enough in any of these categories. Once there is enough accumulated skill and knowledge in creating equally good procedural generation it will trump hand made simply by only requiring the push of a button on a finished algorythm to generate a new experience instead of years of extra work.

I agree with this. The kids of No Man's Sky and ED are going to be some really great experiences, I think even beyond simple game enjoyment. We just need that right intersect of the technology and the creativity.

 

[bendover]

The universe is vast and empty with small pockets of spheres of rock or gas,Its not there to entertain you,Unending,idomitable ,uncaring.To the universe you are less than grain of sand on a beach,Deal with or go home.Plus the Universe IS procedurally generated, we have little thing nowadays called Physics which underpins its entire creation mecahisam

 

[ZeeWolf]

I don't understand the argument that it's wrong to do something just because other games do it another way.

I liked it that previous Elite games did it and I've personally wanted a game that did it again well. The closest we've had are indie Elite clones for 2 decades.

There seems to be a market for this kind of thing.

It's a bit like saying why does Minecraft use PG to make landscapes when handcrafted levels would be so much more detailed?

Computer science makes interesting and unique gaming experiences that transcend what the even the developers experienced with the product and astronomy is cool.

You don't have to like what I like.

 

[CorvusDove]

I think that's only true as of now because it's been done to death and honed to all kinds of insane qualities. Procedural generation just hasn't been pushed often enough in any of these categories. Once there is enough accumulated skill and knowledge in creating equally good procedural generation it will trump hand made simply by only requiring the push of a button on a finished algorythm to generate a new experience instead of years of extra work.

The problem with Procedural Generation has always been application. Games using it mostly use it to determine the world itself; resources and landscapes are where it's focused. NPCs and other interactables are where the industry ventures less frequently, mostly because that would be much more difficult and expensive. Starbound tries its hand at it, but the limited number of combinations due to cost to prevent such a boundary hurts it.

I think No Man's Sky will get us closer, as will Elite's continued development, but Procedural will only be able to overtake Handmade when the developers are as curious and clueless to what will be found as the players. That said, regarding the OP's point, there are still many combinations out there that can be beautiful and fascinating, but eventually you are right. The combinations become transparent and you start naming them in your head. Until we are technologically to a point where the game does more of its own development than the devs do, that will always be a limiting factor.

And I've been gaming since the 80's too, and I resent any notion that such makes me a mature gamer. Not only do I still refuse the mantle of "middle-aged", but I am far from mature. Ask my wife.

 

[Nara]

As I looked up from the furthest system below the galactic core at the majesty of the mass of stars, and out across the galaxy to our end...

And as I turned a looked in the opposite direction into nothingness, feeling a distinct chill...

The last thing on my mind was "this procedural generation is just hype and nonsense".

I'm willing to bet that the OP hasn't explored much.

 

[ZeeWolf]

It's not just a hype card though is it?

There is a massive practical component at play.

If DB and Ian Bell had tried to 'handcraft' a galaxy in 48k they would have simply run out of memory.

Now you have the time to market factor. How much space game can you actually make in a couple of years on a budget of a few million if you are creating worlds like FPS maps?

What would ED be like now if that was the case? A couple of maps and some ship assets? Oooherr..

 

[dannysquid]

I think that's only true as of now because it's been done to death and honed to all kinds of insane qualities. Procedural generation just hasn't been pushed often enough in any of these categories. Once there is enough accumulated skill and knowledge in creating equally good procedural generation it will trump hand made simply by only requiring the push of a button on a finished algorythm to generate a new experience instead of years of extra work.

It'll keep getting better but I don't think it's the answer to everything. It's the answer to creating very, very large complicated things. But it's always going to be a bit generic by its very nature. The real world is too specific, and it's usually the specific stuff (the artistic choices) that we respond to.

I do love ELITE's awe-inspiring scale though.

 

[YinYin]

Procedural technology sure won't progress fast ...

I do think creating a procedural algorithm includes a lot of artistic choices though. If you don't make them it won't be good.

edit: and of course you better always prototype with some hand crafted templates to roughly figure out what you want your algorithms to create. Most game development is exactly that (concept art > digital object for example).

I'm willing to bet that the OP hasn't explored much.

He does not have the game yet ... and even then it's completely fine.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Space itself is procedurally generated so it kind of makes sense that a simulation of it should be as well.

 

[Apos]

In order to claim you'd prefer a few wel designed over a lot procedural ones, you'd have to argue what makes a well designed system first.

We do have hand crafted systems. It's just not all of them. Do you consider them well designed and, if not, what would you consider as such?

 

[Commander Wolzan]

In my opinion, the procedurally generated nature of this galaxy is one thing that makes exploration very appealing. There are planets and stars out there which literally no one has ever seen, including the devs at Frontier. I think this is very powerful and if the systems were all hand crafted would not be true.

 

[lefty1117]

It'll keep getting better but I don't think it's the answer to everything. It's the answer to creating very, very large complicated things. But it's always going to be a bit generic by its very nature. The real world is too specific, and it's usually the specific stuff (the artistic choices) that we respond to.

I do love ELITE's awe-inspiring scale though.

I could see where ultimately procedural generation is on par with hand-crafted systems. It's all about the complexity and detail that goes into the software. The Stellar Forge didn't just spit planets out, it actually modeled their formation and then played through their evolution through billions of years up until 3301. At least that's how I understand it to work based on FD interviews during beta. That's what sets their PG apart from others - they are using basically a model of simulating the galaxy that scientists would use in their research - and I don't believe that's been done in gaming before.

Who's to say that some day we don't have a procedural generation system that also models the impact of civilization on planets, or the impact of tides on the coastlines, or global warming and cooling, etc. Ultimately we should be able to model, to describe in math, all of the forces that impact our world and our reality, so in that case why shouldn't procedural generation work just as well as something hand crafted - maybe even better? As long as we're supplying all of the variables and rules.

Here's a newsletter that talks about the Stellar Forge and how it works in more detail: http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=dcbf6b86b4b0c7d1c21b73b1e&id=76df98203b

 

[Iskariot]

that its creators are so fond of holds back its potential from the beginning.

Hi guys,

I want to say in advance, I'm a mature player who played the original Elite back in the 80s and also Elite Frontier and I played many of the space combat sims that came out over the years. I haven't yet checked out this game, but I guess I will soon. I'm a fan of sandbox games that don't force a story or an image onto you and are not sensationalistic in their nature like so many games today.

to the point: I understand that exploration is part of Elite, but I never bought the hype of endless space. What does that do for the game? We all know it's just procedurally generated. I could aswell check out the generator and the assets that it compiles. It always bugged me about Elite that it plays this card. After all it's just a game and a game world imo shouldn't be bigger than the substantial content it has to offer, or it becomes a string of endless repetition. And why would I want to explore that further?

I'd rather have a couple of well-designed systems with some more generically to explore where the game shows all its offerings. Doing so would make Elite sharper, more attractive to a larger player base that is currently turned off by the game's emptiness and lengthy character.

If you do not get it then you don't.
I just don't care enough anymore to try to explain.
You can think of all the psychological explanations yourself I presume?

Okay, I will have another go at it....
There is a huge psychological difference between a limited box based spacesim like the X games, Star Citizen etc. and an open design like Elite.
Eventually, and rather sooner than later, everybody in a boxed spacesim will have been were everybody else has been and the game world will start to feel confined and claustrophobic.
The Elite approach is the only one that can recreate that what is so truly fascinating about endless space.
Boxed spacesims will forever fail at this. Just have a look at the X-game starmaps.
For me, an old Frontier Elite 2 player, it represents a suffocating horror of limitation.
And this limited gameworld did not at all make a more interesting game as far as I am concerned.

We have had this discussion a thousand times. Very often started by first time posters, but rarely by first time posters who have not even played the game.
Just search a bit and you will see copies of this discussion pop up.

I could aswell check out the generator and the assets that it compiles.

Yes, instead of driving a car you might just as well look at the manual, a few pieces of sheet metal, some electric wiring and a bucket full of fuel.


In the end it all depends on the assets FD puts in the universe. It is a work in process. The game is in the midst of development and the first new dimension will be added with the Horizons expansion.
Eventually there will be aliens to discover and other mysterious stuff.

But as I said... if you do not get the Elite concept then you don't.
If you do not feel the attraction, then that is what it is.
For me it is a dream come true.

 

[Space Junky]

ED is not the same as Minecraft, Rust or other procedural games. ED's PC is based on a building principle the same we know for how star systems exist and are born.

As for why have 400+ billion star systems in a 1:1 model of our Milky Way Galaxy, I counter with "why not"? Yes some systems may be appear similar to others but no two exactly alike and if you're explorer it's all about getting out in the black man. ED is a game for space nerds. If you're not a space nerd you probably won't like this game. That being said, I love this game. I could be 36k LY out and be happy as a tick on a bloodhound.

[video=youtube;N9GAO8qzHv0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9GAO8qzHv0[/video]