Astronomy / Space Thought Experiement
- Thread starter Cargobane
- Start date
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2:30pm now....2:30pm on Lave.....after 2 Hours.....4:30pm......sorted =P
I'm assuming there's a standardized time in-universe that just corresponds with the RL 24-hour clock for gameplay reasons. But if you deconstruct where our 24-hour clock comes from, it is based on the Sun's apparent position in the sky as the Earth rotates, averaged out over a year (solar day length varies as the Earth goes through its elliptical orbit). Different planets rotate at different speeds and their orbits have varying degrees of ellipticity, so their solar (and sidereal) days would be different.
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edd, that's hilarious and so disturbing.
Gut has the obviously correct answer with the required point by Aquamonkey of a standard universal time reference. An extension of UTC we'll assume.
Now the thought part of this is while I used an in-game System reference this is the Astronomy section about reality.
What UTC time is it here now. What UTC time is it on Pluto now.
If it takes 30 minutes to get to Pluto, what time is it when you get there?
Gut has the obviously correct answer with the required point by Aquamonkey of a standard universal time reference. An extension of UTC we'll assume.
Now the thought part of this is while I used an in-game System reference this is the Astronomy section about reality.
What UTC time is it here now. What UTC time is it on Pluto now.
If it takes 30 minutes to get to Pluto, what time is it when you get there?
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The essential is to arrive at destination in good condition
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Okay, fine, I'll bite...
Right now it's 13:50 UTC. It's 13:50 UTC everywhere - here, Pluto, Betelgeuse, everywhere.
The problem is the next part. It takes 30 minutes to get to Pluto from whose point of reference? From the point of view of an observer on Earth, the traveller would be moving at many times the speed of light in order to reach Pluto in just half an hour. Great, now the universe is broken and we're all dead.
If it takes half an hour from the traveller's frame of reference we should be okay. But to get there so quickly they must be travelling at relativistic speeds, and I have no idea where to start with the calculations. Probably many, many thousands of years pass by on Earth, but when the traveller arrives at Pluto it will be the same UTC time on Pluto as it is here on Earth. And the traveller is still only half an hour older.
Time is weird.
Right now it's 13:50 UTC. It's 13:50 UTC everywhere - here, Pluto, Betelgeuse, everywhere.
The problem is the next part. It takes 30 minutes to get to Pluto from whose point of reference? From the point of view of an observer on Earth, the traveller would be moving at many times the speed of light in order to reach Pluto in just half an hour. Great, now the universe is broken and we're all dead.
If it takes half an hour from the traveller's frame of reference we should be okay. But to get there so quickly they must be travelling at relativistic speeds, and I have no idea where to start with the calculations. Probably many, many thousands of years pass by on Earth, but when the traveller arrives at Pluto it will be the same UTC time on Pluto as it is here on Earth. And the traveller is still only half an hour older.
Time is weird.
From whose? Ha, we already established that. The Universal Time. We've already agreed that it is the same time in both places. It takes 30 minutes to get from here to there.
It is not thousands of years later, it is 30 minutes.
The speed of light is not relevant. And time is only a measurement of something. Time is simple. It is not a medium or physical property like mass or energy.
It is not thousands of years later, it is 30 minutes.
The speed of light is not relevant. And time is only a measurement of something. Time is simple. It is not a medium or physical property like mass or energy.
Sorry, but no. The speed of light is relevant. From the UTC frame of reference it is literally impossible to get from here to Pluto in just half an hour, because that would involve accelerating beyond the speed of light. No can do.
Unless, of course, in your little thought experiment we are assuming you have some exotic means of travel that is not subject to relativistic effects, like a Frame Shift Drive. But you also specified that this was a thought experiment about reality and not the game. It is unknown whether such a means of travel is possible at all but if it was then yes, the answer is "half an hour".
Time is absolutely real, and very little understood. It really does flow at different rates in different places and we have to account for that in our satellites, otherwise they wouldn't work properly. Especially the sat nav ones.
Unless, of course, in your little thought experiment we are assuming you have some exotic means of travel that is not subject to relativistic effects, like a Frame Shift Drive. But you also specified that this was a thought experiment about reality and not the game. It is unknown whether such a means of travel is possible at all but if it was then yes, the answer is "half an hour".
Time is absolutely real, and very little understood. It really does flow at different rates in different places and we have to account for that in our satellites, otherwise they wouldn't work properly. Especially the sat nav ones.
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Avago Earo
Banned
Wow, if this is read by anyone who knows stuff, I'm for the noose.
I think the general consensus in recent scientific papers (or in my case watching PBS Space Time on YouTube), is that time really only exists as an observation from our perspective, psychologically. Other than that, outside of human our conscious experience, it doesn't exist at all; much like Colour. What we observe as time are snapshots that we interpret as flowing. What we 'observe' as Time is a consequence of Mass and Gravity. So to say Time is not physical is true. But what we are calling Time has a fundamental physical effect on everything as it is Mass and Gravity working together.
I'll save you all Time and get my own rope.
Oh how cute. I got the little treatment. No fun. But at least you did realize somewhat if all the relativistic assumptions broke down, that 30 minutes passing anywhere is 30 minutes everywhere.
Regardless of how long it took to get from A to C.
If light is our yardstick for space and time, things that move beyond that frame of reference of course might not be measurable. Except by after-effects or side-effects or dark-effects.
To believe fully though that somehow time would slow down for one object because it speeds up for another requires a strange leap of faith some are not willing to take.
The clock may indicate something is happening to time, but it's not. The clock is merely ticking differently. This would never mean you are time traveling.
So let's say, once something is beyond a reference light speed (since it's not constant, let's assume our solar medium c), it's no longer observable with light based observations.
It is of course still moving in space. But time is not relevant except in reconciling the different clock environments.
Regardless of how long it took to get from A to C.
If light is our yardstick for space and time, things that move beyond that frame of reference of course might not be measurable. Except by after-effects or side-effects or dark-effects.
To believe fully though that somehow time would slow down for one object because it speeds up for another requires a strange leap of faith some are not willing to take.
The clock may indicate something is happening to time, but it's not. The clock is merely ticking differently. This would never mean you are time traveling.
So let's say, once something is beyond a reference light speed (since it's not constant, let's assume our solar medium c), it's no longer observable with light based observations.
It is of course still moving in space. But time is not relevant except in reconciling the different clock environments.
Yeeesss, but you did say you wanted to do a real world thought experiment, but when you remove relativity you also remove reality. The question is akin to saying "disregarding all relativistic effects, how long does half an hour take?"
You also say that time is not a medium or a physical property, it is merely a measurement of something. Okay, but a measurement of what? It isn't just movement that affects the flow of time: gravity does it too. Time really does flow slower at the bottom of a ladder than it does at the top.
Here's a thought experiment:
Our spaceman has two clocks. The red one is just a regular clock, but the blue one is somehow permanently linked to UTC time. Here on Earth both clocks are perfectly synchronised. Then the spaceman hops in his spaceship and heads for Pluto at almost the speed of light. The red one ticks away normally, while the blue one is behaving oddly: the hands are spinning around, almost a blur. This is relativity in motion (pun intended).
So, when he arrives at Pluto the red clock says that four hours have passed and it's time for lunch. But the blue UTC clock shows that several weeks have passed and he's missed his sister's birthday.
The question is: which clock is right?
Time is far stranger and more flexible than you seem to realise. As for time travel - we do it all the time. As long as the clock is ticking it is travelling through time (that's a metaphorical clock, of course. It is quite easy to stop a real clock from ticking).
You also say that time is not a medium or a physical property, it is merely a measurement of something. Okay, but a measurement of what? It isn't just movement that affects the flow of time: gravity does it too. Time really does flow slower at the bottom of a ladder than it does at the top.
Here's a thought experiment:
Our spaceman has two clocks. The red one is just a regular clock, but the blue one is somehow permanently linked to UTC time. Here on Earth both clocks are perfectly synchronised. Then the spaceman hops in his spaceship and heads for Pluto at almost the speed of light. The red one ticks away normally, while the blue one is behaving oddly: the hands are spinning around, almost a blur. This is relativity in motion (pun intended).
So, when he arrives at Pluto the red clock says that four hours have passed and it's time for lunch. But the blue UTC clock shows that several weeks have passed and he's missed his sister's birthday.
The question is: which clock is right?
Time is far stranger and more flexible than you seem to realise. As for time travel - we do it all the time. As long as the clock is ticking it is travelling through time (that's a metaphorical clock, of course. It is quite easy to stop a real clock from ticking).
Which one did he take with him? I missed that part. And what about the green clock at Pluto? Only 4 hours later.
I don't believe that Time has physical properties in the Universe, maybe to say that it is only ever only Now everywhere. It's not that hard of an assumption to grasp, much easier then to believe that everything came from nothing, and every black hole is a timeless singularity that contains another instance of everything. Or that the speed of light is the absolute value of everything.
Time as some property of nature itself that must be further acting as a force in nature, therefore it must be realized in Math. And maybe we should look for this Time particle with ever bigger measurements. But no, you'll never find it. It does not exist.
Once this removal of time, as some strange pseudo physical thing, is believed other more elegant solutions and alternatives become available. There are many published papers and wizard math proofs dealing with these theories. Some of them from Famous people. I don't think (if a layman is allowed to) they've got it all figured out, and of course several prestigious ego's are at stake if that is people's focus. I like to hope that people who be less interested in Who was right or wrong with Big Theory, and more about What is right or wrong.
Anyway, that's all the Time I have for now
I don't believe that Time has physical properties in the Universe, maybe to say that it is only ever only Now everywhere. It's not that hard of an assumption to grasp, much easier then to believe that everything came from nothing, and every black hole is a timeless singularity that contains another instance of everything. Or that the speed of light is the absolute value of everything.
Time as some property of nature itself that must be further acting as a force in nature, therefore it must be realized in Math. And maybe we should look for this Time particle with ever bigger measurements. But no, you'll never find it. It does not exist.
Once this removal of time, as some strange pseudo physical thing, is believed other more elegant solutions and alternatives become available. There are many published papers and wizard math proofs dealing with these theories. Some of them from Famous people. I don't think (if a layman is allowed to) they've got it all figured out, and of course several prestigious ego's are at stake if that is people's focus. I like to hope that people who be less interested in Who was right or wrong with Big Theory, and more about What is right or wrong.
Anyway, that's all the Time I have for now
It is time for a nice cup of tea. Relatively speaking, of course.
Has anyone seen my coat? I'll go now.
There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day,
In a relative way,
And returned home the previous night.
A. H. Reginald Buller,
Emeritus Professor of Botany, University of Manitoba.
Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew.
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day,
In a relative way,
And returned home the previous night.
A. H. Reginald Buller,
Emeritus Professor of Botany, University of Manitoba.
Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew.