Thoughts on endgame.

I've been playing for a while in silence and it's the first time i have a look at the forum but i had some thoughts to share. I'm toying with pp now and i keep thinking, why can't we just team up with people and grow our own independant player controlled factions, conquer stuff, colonize outside of the bubble. I know we can do something kindda similar with pp but our impact feel so minimal and we don't have ways to have a say in anything happening. We can just kindda grind for an NPC faction and eventually a system and faction might evolve. I don't feel invested in what's happening. Right now it just feel like going to work on a chain of production just so your boss can buy a Yacht and spend 6 months a year in a resort. I just wish they gave us more control over the universe.

What are they scared of? Isn't 400 billions systems enough for everyone? We peak at 6000 concurrent players each months on steam charts. I feel like there's enough empty space for us to just claim our own personal systems and invest in it. Hell there's enough space for everyone on this planet to play Elite and do it. Start as a small political force and grow to large scale, set our own laws on mining and trading in our territory and our faction hostility toward other factions or players in general, build up our stuff. Not like in minecraft and have people build D's and balls on planets. Just buying and/or collecting RSS to build premade buildings and placing them where we want, some spaceport, some defenses, why not some barracks and factories to build armies and recruit fleets, then set them our own goals to open conflict zones where we decide to and take over ressources we need to grow bigger and expand our borders to other systems. Doing some management that would have a real impact on things and then being part of it with our ships and friends would be so much fun. This would give us some never ending grind to do but this would also never stop being rewarding.

This game have alot of potential, i listen to everything on Galnet and i'm like dude imagine if we were empowered and were making the decisions in a meaninful way, changing the course of the lore and econnomy and Frontier just acted like some Dungeon Masters throwing stuff at us like Thargoids to shake things up instead of that shallow, steamlined NPC controlled faction system. The universe is so vast it's not like we can break the game or something for new players flying sidewinders. It wouldn't stop anyone from being a simple miner, trader or bounty hunter either, i think it would even complement it. Even if a player faction was hyper dominant the universe is big enough for each and every single one of us to hide our own personal faction somewhere and never be found again unless someone have a ''lottery ticket winner'' kind of luck(if this is our wish).

I feel like that kind of endgame possibilities mixed with what Frontier already have done have the potential to bankrupt EVE Online and abort Star Citizen. Just give us the tools instead of being the tools, let us build the game and conquer what we can of this universe, DO IT FRONTIER! Let us start with our ridiculously small sidewinder and go ridiculously big instead of capping us to being worthless pawns with bigger ships. This would be an epic space opera. Right now no matter what you chose to do from exploration to combat in that universe it's a shallow cycle that never end. Get money doing things for NPC's you don't really care about, buy better ships to be more effective doing jobs for NPC's you don't really care about and make more money, then rinse and repeat. I feel like a dog running after my own tail in a corner of the house when i play right now. A galactic dog, in a corner of 400 billions systems. Which is kindda ridiculous when you think about the endless possibilities a universe of that unthinkable scale could and should probably offer when you invest yourself in it long term be it in solo or collectively. It shouldn't end at just being a spectator/support of NPC factions going at it in a small bubble. Would be so nice to hear about player factions power struggles and political feats on Galnet instead of just being tools in the events unfolding.

It's fun for a while but why does it end there when i can't even find the end of that map.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Aside from the fact that there is no 'end game' in Elite, you're asking for an entirely different game. What you're asking for is not the game what was designed and the systems aren't capable of doing what you want.
 
How is it an entirely different game if we get the power to make meaningful decisions? The game's already pretty close to what i'm talking about. The only core difference right now is that it's not entirely player driven. I'm just talking about switching our position to drive the car instead of being passenger all along that road trip. Same trip, same destination, different drivers. In a 400 billions systems universe that NPC bubble should be a starter zone.

And even if it made a huge difference, please no bull about that wasn't designed and aren't capable thing. Worst lie ever, the beauty of video games and computers is that at the end it's a bunch of 1's and 0's and you can rearrange, reorder and add to it whennever you want to like some kind of litteral god. That's litteraly why the video game industry is even a thing. Could you drive on planets before Horizon? Nope. Still doing it now so...
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
OK I'm posting so you know I'm not ignoring you, but I really don't see how I could possibly try to have a discussion if your standpoint is that anything is possible in a game by just changing some 1s and 0s.

There is no true player driven economy, in fact the game is barely player driven at all! Everything has been designed to revolve around Frontier interpretation and implementation of it. Take the recent CG where people thought that the supply of a commodity was going to run dry before the CG could be completed. The supply numbers were dropping, but they're not in exact relation to the amounts brought by all Cmdrs. There's no indication of when their supplies are replenished or what the replenishment levels are.
You can't just flip a switch to say, make all of that relate exactly to the work players are doing. Bingo.

Then you have the whole issues with instancing and having to therefore make all player owned structures indestructible, how can you stop 2 people building on the same place at the same time if they can't see each other. There's so many issues. So while I appreciate the enthusiasm, it is not possible. In my opinion :)
 
There have been some rumours that the next expansion might have base building. After some consideration, I don't think that's completely implausible considering the other games they have been developing and BGS manipulation being one of the endgame paths some players take. It is worth developing. However, I would expect them to still be careful with players' capacity to affect the game world. If they are not, the popular Bubble systems will fill up with half-finished bases.
 
Well giving up on the potential of the game just explain why there's 2,410 people playing right now and not 200k or 2m+. Flipping that switch and giving us something else to really care about outside of our own ships can't hurt that game, that's for sure. Right now im gearing toward last ship and your the first human i ever talk to, i didn't try to ingame before but as of right now the universe is so big and human interractions are so pointless i've never even seen an actual player ingame. I wouldn't even believe it if i encountered one.
 
and i wouldn't worry about unfinished base. First you can just remove abandonned stuff but even if you didn't. Good luck finding those. It's 400 billions systems. We could be 8 billions people playing it, if they spawned us randomly accross the universe no one would've met a player by now. Let make them conquerable and destroyable anyway. The universe is big enough for everyone. It's probably the only map i know of big enough to never be a problem.
 
Come up to Colonia and chat to a few people who support factions there.

Our remit is that we are mercenaries, traders and explorers. Leave the admin to those sat in the base. We get to be the ones who carve the path into the next system or defend our faction from others who wish to take over.
 
It may be 400 billion systems, but that doesn't mean people are evenly spread among them. Most stay in the Bubble. If people were allowed to build as many bases wherever they wanted, there would be at least 20 of them in Beagle Point and Sol would be absolutely crowded. What good is a great base if other people don't get to see it, many would think. I would guess that if this becomes a feature, it will probably be 1 base per player and many systems would be off limits.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Well giving up on the potential of the game just explain why there's 2,410 people playing right now and not 200k or 2m+. Flipping that switch and giving us something else to really care about outside of our own ships can't hurt that game, that's for sure. Right now im gearing toward last ship and your the first human i ever talk to, i didn't try to ingame before but as of right now the universe is so big and human interractions are so pointless i've never even seen an actual player ingame. I wouldn't even believe it if i encountered one.
It could also be something to do with the fact that most PC players don't use Steam, let alone that it doesn't take consoles into account either.

I'm also confused by you wanting to build up factions and work with others to expand then, but you have never encountered another player in game which can only be done deliberately surely. Go to a CG system in Open if not ;)

But as Deejayeff145 says, you should take a trip to Colonia.
 
Steam stats do not represent the full picture of the state of play.
As for base building, to me that sounds more like a game in itself,and not core to the ethos, but it's FD's game, and whilst it may not always give me the most desirable outcome to my expectations, it is at least serviceable in maintaining my interest in the attempt.
I have to ask,though, who would rule in this wonderful world you most passionately describe? And if you were hidden away,who would know of your existence?
The children of Raxxlaaa will be most put out if you have discovered the end game without them.
 
There have been some rumours that the next expansion might have base building. After some consideration, I don't think that's completely implausible considering the other games they have been developing and BGS manipulation being one of the endgame paths some players take. It is worth developing. However, I would expect them to still be careful with players' capacity to affect the game world. If they are not, the popular Bubble systems will fill up with half-finished bases.

that could be a neat alternative/addition to fleet carriers. my guess to keep from overcrowding planets there would be a minimum distance to other bases, and limit on how many per planet, justified by some kind of land claim. as far space stations go, I imagine those could be more flexible.
 
No thanks no end game please.
I'm hoping the game loops keep it going by dynamically building stuff we need to fight agaist
 
I quite agree that we should have greater effects on the universe, that the galaxy should react more to our actions via a much more in-depth BGS that weaves various plots and intricacies based on our actions.

However, we should never have direct control over things. We are not the prime movers, we are not the star players, we are not the celebrities in the ED galaxy; we are average Joes, the Pizza delivery guys, the interns and agency staff hired to fill gaps, the mercenaries hired to bulk out forces, the faceless hired to shift blame.

Rather than trying to hand us the reins, they should be improving core game mechanics and how they affect the galaxy. They need to add in things like dynamic economies and markets, procedural colonisation, megaship construction and station building (including the reverse - abandoning planets and stations or mothballing megaships), introduce persistent NPCs (both pilots we meet in the field as well as non-pilots we interact with on missions) etc. The game needs to really be able to spread its wings rather than constantly relying on the hand of God to get anything done.
 

Deleted member 38366

D
Sandbox freedom so far hasn't been on the list for this Game, so it's completely normal to quickly (more or less) hit the limitations of the available Features.

Time will have to tell if 2020 will change any of that and yields more/deeper Player agenda to provide new optional long-term goals especially for "end-game Players".

After all (as I put it in the past), there's an insane amount of entirely unused real estate in the Galaxy. Just waiting to be put to a good use, unlimited potential.
More than enough space to construct, build, defend and expand for whatever purpose one could come up with.
From Deep Space Mining FOBs seeking various rare "Unobtanium" only found in distant locations far away from the bubble over simple temporary Refuel/Repair/Rearm locations all the way to Player Colonization of Space (i.e. by larger Groups) - or hidden Pirate/Anarchy nests for criminals seeking a secure base of Operations or to stash their riches.

Anyway, more visible effect of Player Actions would seem extremely beneficial, make the Galaxy truly come to life - all without entering the dangerous realms of "Total Control" type of more draconian/extreme Player agendas that carry quite some risk.
 
...I feel like that kind of endgame possibilities mixed with what Frontier already have done have the potential to bankrupt EVE Online and abort Star Citizen...

I agree with most of what you said. Right now I feel Elite has the best "core" mechanics, model of the galaxy, and overall immersion. But it lacks in ways to actually keep the player involved in the world.

If they could use that foundation and let people spend their billions on building their little empire and competing with each other for the top spots that would be awesome.
 
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