Ships Time for ED to let the Players design a Fighter

[Nerdicus]

I like where they've (ED) been moving lately (player designed paint scheme), but I wish they'd think a bit bigger. We have some very talented people playing this game, and with ED's involvement in every facet, in my opinion this could be pulled off. My thinking, make it similar to how we design new fighters here in the US, a competition between manufacturers, and here's my line of thought.

Like the US Air Force, ED would choose a role, an AO (Area of Operation), and preferred cost structure for the new fighter. An example would be the following; In response to both the Empire and Federations continued development of Corvette size combat ships, the Alliance wants to develop it's first faction ship. They require an Interceptor (we don't have one in-game currently), with at least one large weapon point, high-speed with above average maneuverability, moderate shielding and at least a 20LY jump range fully armed. Price range for this ship shouldn't exceed $3.5 million credits per unit.

From that requirement, each manufacturer (Core Dynamics, Lakon, etc...) will submit a design for consideration, with the winner granted the contract. ED could assign players to teams for each manufacturer, assist each team with the rules of ship development and balancing (in other worlds no 100T ships with 600 shields, 300 tons of armor, a 10 maneuverability, and a 30 power rating with an ability to carry 200 tons of cargo), and they could provide design templates to teams if they need us to follow what they have already developed.

I know this is a bit of "wishful" thinking on my part, but I currently design systems for the US military, and I would love to get more player involvement in the future of this game.

Thoughts?

 

[Flin]

Baby steps. Let's see how paintjobs goes.

Also, this opportunity will likely be offered to DDF-level backers first.

These pilots well help them develop the process for broader design
competitions.

 

[Evil]

Baby steps. Let's see how paintjobs goes.

Also, this opportunity will likely be offered to DDF-level backers first.

These pilots well help them develop the process for broader design
competitions.

Yeah paint jobs first, although I don't see why it would be offered to the DDF backers first.

 

[Khelder]

And we give you... The Homer






Credit to Cmdr Salad. Had to be repeated.

 

[Morbad]

The Imperial Clipper meets most of the criteria for a good interceptor.

I don't thing a large hard-point, solid defensive ability, good maneuverability, high speed and a 20ly jump range are remotely likely to happen in a 3.5 million credit ship.

 

[Vasious]

The Imperial Clipper meets most of the criteria for a good interceptor.

I don't thing a large hard-point, solid defensive ability, good maneuverability, high speed and a 20ly jump range are remotely likely to happen in a 3.5 million credit ship.

Reminds me of the movie Pentagon Wars

 

[Poseidal]

Player designed things (game mechanics) tend towards munchkinism and can cause problem for games.

I rather have a design competition for visuals and style, which is then run through the FD artists to refine into something that can be put into the game.

Alliance ships should not be suggested until FD have decided on an aesthetic for them, if they are going to be AAAI or a new company. Novel descriptions have described them as not as rounded as Imperial ships, but not as angular as Federal ships.

 

[Khelder]

Player designed things (game mechanics) tend towards munchkinism and can cause problem for games.

I rather have a design competition for visuals and style, which is then run through the FD artists to refine into something that can be put into the game.

I agree.

 

[simo2003]

Player designed things (game mechanics) tend towards munchkinism and can cause problem for games.

I rather have a design competition for visuals and style, which is then run through the FD artists to refine into something that can be put into the game.

Alliance ships should not be suggested until FD have decided on an aesthetic for them, if they are going to be AAAI or a new company. Novel descriptions have described them as not as rounded as Imperial ships, but not as angular as Federal ships.

Yes, this.

 

[Ceekay]

Design by committee I wonder how that'll work out?

Seriously though I'd expect that any 10 players will have 10 different design criteria for even a mid range fighter and getting them to compromise on any of them? best of luck with that and if they do thrash out a design wait for the complaints when FD balances the ships capabilities we all remember Pythongate!

 

[newman1702]

What they could do in the think bigger department is have another paintjob competition, for one ship, this time releasing the selected ship's mesh in a popular 3d format like obj, fbx or whatever, release an instruction document on how mapping is handled for said ships (diffuse, specular, normal, etc - though for different skins likely only diffuse and spec would be needed).

Winners get hired to create additional skins for sale in the store. One or two artists get some cool work, people get more skins, FD gets more action from the store, everybody wins.

 

[Nerdicus]

The Imperial Clipper meets most of the criteria for a good interceptor.

I don't thing a large hard-point, solid defensive ability, good maneuverability, high speed and a 20ly jump range are remotely likely to happen in a 3.5 million credit ship.

Don't see why it couldn't happen under $3.5 million. You could literally take the $1.8 million DBE, shrink it's overall mass by removing some it's armor (in theory), which should increase it's shield rating, speed and maneuverability, and have a pretty darn good interceptor. Expand an internal and you've got something really special. The exact same thing could be stated about the Cobra.

 

[Crash1099]

http://magicschoolbus.wikia.com/wiki/The_Bus

 

[Nerdicus]

Player designed things (game mechanics) tend towards munchkinism and can cause problem for games.

I rather have a design competition for visuals and style, which is then run through the FD artists to refine into something that can be put into the game.

Alliance ships should not be suggested until FD have decided on an aesthetic for them, if they are going to be AAAI or a new company. Novel descriptions have described them as not as rounded as Imperial ships, but not as angular as Federal ships.

While I agree that ED should control how everything is inserted in-game (managing the mechanics), your initial statement of player designed things tend toward munchkinism is inaccurate because it is way too general in its description. Player created content has led to the most successful game series in history with Bethesda's Elder Scrolls and Fallout platforms, a history that I personally have been a part of, as my content was used in follow-on games in Morrowind's Tribunal and Bloodmoon, Fallout New Vegas, and the initial release of Skyrim (yes, I was a part-time paid consultant with regards to the modding engine).

Now while the rules of engagement (as well as game engines) are completely different, the fact is that player involvement can completely transform a game to make it more inclusive to what it's players actually want in content.

Now I'm not suggesting storyline type changes, or anything that may require untold hours of scripting, but having ED manage a few teams of players (utilizing the game mechanic rules that ED puts forth) for a competition for an in-game ship contract should be very manageable.

 

[Nerdicus]

And we give you... The Homer

View attachment 57561

View attachment 57562


Credit to Cmdr Salad. Had to be repeated.

Yes, that had me rolling. +Rep to you and Salad.

 

[Poseidal]

While I agree that ED should control how everything is inserted in-game (managing the mechanics), your initial statement of player designed things tend toward munchkinism is inaccurate because it is way too general in its description. Player created content has led to the most successful game series in history with Bethesda's Elder Scrolls and Fallout platforms, a history that I personally have been a part of, as my content was used in follow-on games in Morrowind's Tribunal and Bloodmoon, Fallout New Vegas, and the initial release of Skyrim (yes, I was a part-time paid consultant with regards to the modding engine).

The big difference with those is they are ultimately single player games.

I also would be wary of contributing the success to player-created content — there is a large appeal for big open-world fantasy (and sci-fi) action games and those Bethesda games fill that gap very well.

With mods, they are self-contained, but player designed ships (from what seems to be suggested) would affect basically all players.

With the munchkinism, what I mean is they tend to take advantage of game mechanics rather than using an aesthetic (and I use this term to also refer to the 'physics' and 'reality' of the setting, or the verisimilitude of it). Rather than filling a role in-universe, the player suggestions fill a role in the meta-game, which I am guilty of myself, and which don't really help with the believability and overall integrity of the balance of gameplay.

That's why I favour a 'visual' design, where the player input is to create a shape (maybe including what the ship is in-universe and why the company made it), and leave the numbers to the developers to fit in. This allows creativity of design without the ulterior motive of getting a ship that is mechanically too good.

 

[Vasious]

Don't see why it couldn't happen under $3.5 million. You could literally take the $1.8 million DBE, shrink it's overall mass by removing some it's armor (in theory), which should increase it's shield rating, speed and maneuverability, and have a pretty darn good interceptor. Expand an internal and you've got something really special. The exact same thing could be stated about the Cobra.

Nothing is ever straight forward.

Firstly we don't know what goes into determining ships armour shields, speed and maneuverability.
We know hull mass goes to the shield optimized mass but then is also affected by the inherit shields score of a ship.

The Stock Sidewinder is under the optimised mass for the stock thrusters yet is slower and less manoeuvre-able than the Eagle which is closer (ie heavier) to the optimised mass of its stock engines.

Second, when you have described you ship, you haven't detailed what an Interceptor means.
I read it as a short range fighter designed to operate in friendly space and interdict enemy ships attempting to penetrate said space.
Ala the Viper
But you have also said a minimum Laden Jump range of 20 light years.
So more definition would be require.

Also this Jump range - Fully laden does that mean all internals full of cargo (since some items mass less then the maximum cargo that could fit in that internal)
e.g an 2E shield masses at 2.5 tons of the possible 4 tons that could go in a class 2 internal
Or do you have a combat config in mind, in which case it would need to be specified.
The more specifics the less ability to design anything beyond the art if everything is stipulated.

And are we talking about performance as a stock E rated ship?
Or are you Assuming it is all A rated

I know you premise was a Military contract but we need a base line to work from and I would imagine beyond the tender, the Fleet yard getting the contract would was the Civilian E rated model to be a viable market option.

If it was a E rated ship needing a jump range of 20 light years, full laden then it is either going to be very small or have a massive jump drive.

Just as a Thought Experiement

To have a E rated FSD push a ship 20 light years it would need to be total mass;
of 35 tons... total all up for a class 3
of 157 tons for the class 4
and 397 tons for the class 5

If we go with a Class four
Basic Modules similar to the DBX plus the same internals (and 8 tons of fuel ie 4 jumps) leaves 25 tons for hull

Which brings us back to the Courier but it has smaller modules such as the class 3 FSD and other modules, so what compromises would the courier need to fit the bigger FSD and Large hard point, would that be doable or will there be no hull mass left.

A Class Five FSD,
Basic Modules similar to the DBX plus the same internals (and 16 tons of fuel ie 5 jumps) leaves 233 tons for hull
That is a Vulture sized ship, but needs a bigger engine means a small hull again, and as we add bigger modules we increase the power usage so will we need a bigger Power Plant, and further lessen to hull down to Diamond Back Scout mass hull but for a much larger ship so likely quite fragile

And a Class A5 drive would throw the same ship 45.5 light years, full laden with all Es besides the drive, replacing all explorers

Assuming I have rearranged the Jump equation correctly

 

[Nerdicus]

Nothing is ever straight forward.

Firstly we don't know what goes into determining ships armour shields, speed and maneuverability.
We know hull mass goes to the shield optimized mass but then is also affected by the inherit shields score of a ship.

The Stock Sidewinder is under the optimised mass for the stock thrusters yet is slower and less manoeuvre-able than the Eagle which is closer (ie heavier) to the optimised mass of its stock engines.

Second, when you have described you ship, you haven't detailed what an Interceptor means.
I read it as a short range fighter designed to operate in friendly space and interdict enemy ships attempting to penetrate said space.
Ala the Viper
But you have also said a minimum Laden Jump range of 20 light years.
So more definition would be require.

Also this Jump range - Fully laden does that mean all internals full of cargo (since some items mass less then the maximum cargo that could fit in that internal)
e.g an 2E shield masses at 2.5 tons of the possible 4 tons that could go in a class 2 internal
Or do you have a combat config in mind, in which case it would need to be specified.
The more specifics the less ability to design anything beyond the art if everything is stipulated.

And are we talking about performance as a stock E rated ship?
Or are you Assuming it is all A rated

I know you premise was a Military contract but we need a base line to work from and I would imagine beyond the tender, the Fleet yard getting the contract would was the Civilian E rated model to be a viable market option.

If it was a E rated ship needing a jump range of 20 light years, full laden then it is either going to be very small or have a massive jump drive.

Just as a Thought Experiement

To have a E rated FSD push a ship 20 light years it would need to be total mass;
of 35 tons... total all up for a class 3
of 157 tons for the class 4
and 397 tons for the class 5

If we go with a Class four
Basic Modules similar to the DBX plus the same internals (and 8 tons of fuel ie 4 jumps) leaves 25 tons for hull

Which brings us back to the Courier but it has smaller modules such as the class 3 FSD and other modules, so what compromises would the courier need to fit the bigger FSD and Large hard point, would that be doable or will there be no hull mass left.

A Class Five FSD,
Basic Modules similar to the DBX plus the same internals (and 16 tons of fuel ie 5 jumps) leaves 233 tons for hull
That is a Vulture sized ship, but needs a bigger engine means a small hull again, and as we add bigger modules we increase the power usage so will we need a bigger Power Plant, and further lessen to hull down to Diamond Back Scout mass hull but for a much larger ship so likely quite fragile

And a Class A5 drive would throw the same ship 45.5 light years, full laden with all Es besides the drive, replacing all explorers

Assuming I have rearranged the Jump equation correctly

Fantastic post, so + rep to you. You've asked a lot of great questions (some I don't have answers too), so I'll try to better explain them one at a time. First, what qualifies as an interceptor (using today's terminology) would be an air superiority fighter designed to get to the engagement as quickly as possible. Now in ED that actually has two meanings, combat speed (m/s) and jump range. In my opinion, this is one true element missing in this game, an "A" class fighter (sort of End Game fighter) with range and speed. Of the pure fighter role ships in game (Eagle, Viper, Courier, Vulture and FDL), only the Courier (380m/s, good shields with around 17ly jump range) comes close to the interceptor criteria, unfortunately I don't consider her a front line fighter, as she has great difficulty surviving engagements with ships above her class (let alone win the fight).

Of the "A" class fighters (Vulture and FDL), both fill almost identical roles, as they're rugged, system defense type fighters. In my opinion, an "A" class interceptor would have to sacrifice some ruggedness to gain speed and distance, say 20% less shielding, lighter armor and a 1L/2M weapon loadout (instead of 2L), but 400m/s speed with 20+ly jump capability (loaded with A class equipment and armament). My thinking would be a frame lighter than a Vulture (say 170 tons) with Class 4 standard equipment (keep the Class 5 distributor), with nothing higher than Class 4 equipment in the internal compartment slots. This would give us a distinct fighter that we don't have in game (without detracting from balance), something that ED could definitely define missions around.


Thoughts?

 

[Vasious]

Fantastic post, so + rep to you. You've asked a lot of great questions (some I don't have answers too), so I'll try to better explain them one at a time. First, what qualifies as an interceptor (using today's terminology) would be an air superiority fighter designed to get to the engagement as quickly as possible. Now in ED that actually has two meanings, combat speed (m/s) and jump range. In my opinion, this is one true element missing in this game, an "A" class fighter (sort of End Game fighter) with range and speed. Of the pure fighter role ships in game (Eagle, Viper, Courier, Vulture and FDL), only the Courier (380m/s, good shields with around 17ly jump range) comes close to the interceptor criteria, unfortunately I don't consider her a front line fighter, as she has great difficulty surviving engagements with ships above her class (let alone win the fight).

Of the "A" class fighters (Vulture and FDL), both fill almost identical roles, as they're rugged, system defense type fighters. In my opinion, an "A" class interceptor would have to sacrifice some ruggedness to gain speed and distance, say 20% less shielding, lighter armor and a 1L/2M weapon loadout (instead of 2L), but 400m/s speed with 20+ly jump capability (loaded with A class equipment and armament). My thinking would be a frame lighter than a Vulture (say 170 tons) with Class 4 standard equipment (keep the Class 5 distributor), with nothing higher than Class 4 equipment in the internal compartment slots. This would give us a distinct fighter that we don't have in game (without detracting from balance), something that ED could definitely define missions around.


Thoughts?

I honestly cannot comment further as I haven't flown the DBs or Vultures to a sufficient degree to have a basis for my opinion on a ship similar
400 m/s unless you mean boost speed is beyond anything else