Watching the same loading screen for hours on end going from one game point to another has nothing at all to do with exploration.
Timesinks: a critique of ED design philosophy
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Watching the same loading screen for hours on end going from one game point to another has nothing at all to do with exploration.
True and a good point but good and great games always have a fast travel system after initial exploration...e.g. Final Fantasy, Skyrim, even FSX speeds time up and other space based games you can get around relatively quickly e.g. X series, Independence War etc (if they aren't on rails like Homeworld)
Honk, scoop, jump, honk, scoop, jump isn't exactly the most rewarding spaceship flying experience
I like this idea, though 100Ly is a bit short and convenient. I'm thinking fewer gates and longer range (>1000Ly) so it's more like a shortcut to another bubble than a replacement for bubble taxis.
It isn't no... But as an Explorer, between scoop and jump I'm spending in the vicinity of 30 - 45 minutes surveying the system. Sometimes much more if it's a particularly "busy" system. That, Honk and Scoop is considered a break from the surveying and aggregating the data as to whether or not I'm landing for a surface mining expedition.
Not to mention the alternate is far, far worse... Ever read Jack McDevitt? Hell any writer working on the method of space travel involving hyperspace? Imagine spending weeks of time in your ship as it cruises the grey void of hyperspace.
And while I can understand the ire of those folk impatient to take time, at the same time I'm thinking that if we start introducing time sink reductions as the OP has been vigorously suggesting, we'll be letting the genie out of the bottle for other things to be introduced for player impatience.
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Ah, so its not that you dont like it, its just you dont know nothing about it. Ok then.
Ah, so its not that you dont like it, its just you dont know nothing about it. Ok then.
Do you like watching paint dry?
Ian Phillips
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Lets keep the comments on topic please.
I must say that I agree with this topic issue.
But I also must say that I love this game, so please, all the lovers out there, please turn off the fan switch for a moment and think about it.
Yes, hopping between stars is a time sink. It's repetitive, and boring. Well, space is really big. In a game like Elite Dangerous that tries to scale the milky way 1:1, it would certainly happen, these time sinks.
Also, there's not much that the Devs can do about it, now. The game is almost finished.
Now, having said that, let's talk about how it could have been done.
The loading screen between jumps is inaccurate. There's certainly not so many nebulas in the way to each star system for us to cross. It would probably be a black screen for a while. Also, in the way fsd jumps are designed, a ship could really disintegrate against any rogue meteor in the way. There's no valid plan route that a ship can make with such a small scanner, that enables it to predict each obstacle on the way.
Instead, if the ships used some kind of hyperjump between dimensions, it would be invulnerable to solid matter, and what the pilot would see, wouldn't be nebulas, or black space, but the fabric of space and time warping around. In this matrix style view, the player could play a mini-game, trying to keep the ship inside a warp tunnel that would close in the next star en-route, and use it to slingshot to the next. If the player missed the route, he would loose the hyperjump and stop at that star vicinity. If he could keep control of the ship, he would make all the jumps until the last star en-route (if he had fuel enough)
Now the funny part of this concept, much to the joy of pirates and grievers, would be the fact that a ship leaving hyperspace would be temporarily vulnerable, with no shields and empty capacitors. (The price of bending space and time)
Regarding supercruise, it's a simple matter as increasing the ship's acceleration and deceleration.
Cheers.
But I also must say that I love this game, so please, all the lovers out there, please turn off the fan switch for a moment and think about it.
Yes, hopping between stars is a time sink. It's repetitive, and boring. Well, space is really big. In a game like Elite Dangerous that tries to scale the milky way 1:1, it would certainly happen, these time sinks.
Also, there's not much that the Devs can do about it, now. The game is almost finished.
Now, having said that, let's talk about how it could have been done.
The loading screen between jumps is inaccurate. There's certainly not so many nebulas in the way to each star system for us to cross. It would probably be a black screen for a while. Also, in the way fsd jumps are designed, a ship could really disintegrate against any rogue meteor in the way. There's no valid plan route that a ship can make with such a small scanner, that enables it to predict each obstacle on the way.
Instead, if the ships used some kind of hyperjump between dimensions, it would be invulnerable to solid matter, and what the pilot would see, wouldn't be nebulas, or black space, but the fabric of space and time warping around. In this matrix style view, the player could play a mini-game, trying to keep the ship inside a warp tunnel that would close in the next star en-route, and use it to slingshot to the next. If the player missed the route, he would loose the hyperjump and stop at that star vicinity. If he could keep control of the ship, he would make all the jumps until the last star en-route (if he had fuel enough)
Now the funny part of this concept, much to the joy of pirates and grievers, would be the fact that a ship leaving hyperspace would be temporarily vulnerable, with no shields and empty capacitors. (The price of bending space and time)
Regarding supercruise, it's a simple matter as increasing the ship's acceleration and deceleration.
Cheers.
Then there is that aspect to the discussion indeed. It is a sociological issue. People are more impatient these days. ICT increases this problem beyond the 24-7-365 commercial mindset that has taken hold all over society. If you cannot buy it NOW, people will find another website to order it. Everything needs to be instant gratification.
That is why smart phones are in fact a syringes and information is the substance. Look at any bus stop, in any bus, train or plane, in restaurants, at work, it doesn't matter where, people have phones attached to their hand. The thing gives acute information that affects the pleasure center of the brain. It seems that those of us who are old enough to have played the first Elite should understand more about life for when we were kids, there was no internet and many of us remember black and white tv. When we were at a bus stop, we talked to each other. These days people are so afraid of inter-human contact, they flee into their phones rather than look someone in the eye.
In the game it is funny that there is no internet. For a system to be undermined, consolidated or taken over we must carry paper vouchers per ton ! to the Power capital. Utterly ridiculous. Especially when you realize we could pledge to have Elite Dangerous made on kickstarter without stepping away from the pc.
In this society how can a game developer overcome this insatiable need for instant gratification. Players want to make money as quickly as possible. That reflects in fact the incessant linear thinking in society as a whole, where people are indoctrinated to believe that getting anywhere in life must be done as quickly and efficiently as possible, like careers e.g. Ultimately a game must reflect the values in society to have even a baseline appeal to a potential player.
And here we have a game that is realistic in its intention, therefore travel will take time. But players have no patience for Einstein and relativity. Fun itself is a function, a rationed commodity and a rare good on the market of life: you get one hour to play the game between the parameters of a partner who requires attention lest the relationship is over, family life altogether, work you need to do at home otherwise your boss will believe you don't apply yourself 140%, which is the minimum requirement these days t keep a job, the groceries run and the sports club social contacts.
So, people must have fun within that Last Bastion of spare time. And if it takes too much time, you may get a discussion like this. Casual games have been on the rise for years. The 'store' is full of them.
If I was FD, I would, in terms of customer loyalty or binding, code a simple and quick ED casual game, something that we see in The Witcher 3 card game.
Free proza, by I. For those who need free Prozac?
Please check my idea below:
SUPER JUMP mode, it's not meant to be a short-cut, please check the detailed post:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...oposal-NOT-A-SHORT-CUT-but-a-boredom-solution
SUPER JUMP mode, it's not meant to be a short-cut, please check the detailed post:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...oposal-NOT-A-SHORT-CUT-but-a-boredom-solution
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Please check my idea below:
SUPER JUMP mode, it's not meant to be a short-cut, please check the detailed post:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...oposal-NOT-A-SHORT-CUT-but-a-boredom-solution
It's might not be meant to be a short cut, but I can clearly see this being exploited as one. Especially by people that have a lot of time to play the game in a sitting.
You want to cure boredom, you need to work on it personally. No amount of gaming, programs, whatever can fix something that can only be applied within oneself through patience and diligence.
That's a preliminary proposal, FDev got all game data to scale down/up the parameters that I provided to balance the gameplay.
An option could be that on top of 1 hour of waiting for cooling down also the FSD got a rated range for the same period of time (let's say 50% of nominal range). So that in 5 hours of game session you can't cover a bigger distance, maybe even a smaller one so people that really want to go far quickly will not use it and they will stick to the standard and safe JUMP and SCOOP protocol.
An option could be that on top of 1 hour of waiting for cooling down also the FSD got a rated range for the same period of time (let's say 50% of nominal range). So that in 5 hours of game session you can't cover a bigger distance, maybe even a smaller one so people that really want to go far quickly will not use it and they will stick to the standard and safe JUMP and SCOOP protocol.
Free proza, by I. For those who need free Prozac?
First off, I wanted to respond to this, but held off because I was wondering how I would be able to reinforce the point. But then I realized all I was doing was gilding the lily.... can't give you a +1 as I did that already in another thread recently, but good show on pointing it out based on the OP's suggestions.
Doesn't matter whether the Devs refine it. Your suggestion is a shortcut and a shortcut that can be exploited by the impatient that have hours to burn in a session. Also your suggestion implies and infers a shortcut that takes away from the massiveness of the Milky Way Sandbox. Don't like the travel in the game? Don't travel. You have a game in a bubble (in the Bubble) that will allow you Exploration credits beyond the dreams of avarice without once giving you the ego-boost of your Commander name in the "First Discovered by" box in the system. Heck the bubble is a self-contained world where you can triple elite without seeing the Deep Black.
The problem is that you (and the OP) don't want to try that route because you got yourself bit by the fever of the herd wanting to stampede to Colonia and Beagle Point. You (and the OP) don't want to slowly work for something and want to experience instantaneous gratification takes too long in the Elite Dangerous Universe. While I will admit that I'm not entirely happy with the economy in this game as it has Gold Fountains based on the capricious whims of the impatient player wanting that Fed Corvette or Anconda in weeks instead of months. I am doing what I can based on the other options to see whether the economy is viable without the insanity of Gold Fever and Gold Fountains.
Based on my initial findings, I am mostly ambivalent to the current state of the in-game economy. It relies too much on RNG; and in a game that should rely on strategy that is never a good thing. It doesn't help matters that the devs are way too glacial about their fixes and updates, but I think that's a problem with Frontier's Business Model, not the actual game itself.
But this issue with time sinks from the OP and the fast travel that's a devil in the details in the postings here? That's just proving how impatient the player base is with the want to change things outside of their complete control.
I think you are confusing active and engaging gameplay with unnecessary timesinks and repetitive tasks that would add nothing to any game.
How would you define the concepts of "boredom" or "tedium" - do you think they have any objective existence within the human mind?
First... Ignoring the bait in the condescending approach of your first sentence:
Boredom: feeling weary because one is unoccupied or lacks interest in one's current activity.
Tedium: too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.
The problem is that you're implying they're interchangeable. They aren't. One can be the cause (tedium) the other is the effect (boredom).
The dilemma you might be failing to catch is that I rarely experience being bored or boredom. The reason for this is based on it once being said, The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play. This was learned by someone once saying to me (in a derogatory manner): Only the boring are bored.
I don't find the game play boring. While there are moments of tediousness in some of the missions I might pick, I don't press hours and hours into the game in a single session if my expectations fall short of the current game play. I simply exit the game and play something else that will give me the gratification I require.. In which case, I head off to Warframe currently. Heck, I leave gaming entirely and engage my other abilities that require more patience than you demonstrate in this whiplash and almost baiting response.
After all, didn't Albert Einstein once say, the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different result"?
I believe you might be having a problem with the fact that I didn't 100% support you in your posit. Something I won't be doing if you continue this tactic of baiting people. You have how many hours in this game to have figured out how this game operates? I suspect more than I do and I've been playing for about a year. So you should also know that the devs are extremely slow about updates and changes.
You definitely seem to have a problem with the internal dilemma of wanting to invest "like" into this game and it seems to be falling short in some way -- hence your posit in suggestions and the lack of fervor you getting for this suggestion.
However, baiting people you might quickly learn the lesson of the following quote attributed to Mark Twain: "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
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I have no intention of baiting you whatsover I can assure you - I am simply stating what I and many others make of timesinks within games and the resulting issues with said games.
All I am interested in in relation to your ideas is showing that some truths are self evident, that boredom is objectively describable and that not all things in life and art are morally equal. Moral relativism is not an excuse for poor game design.
Leaving aside your slightly unique definitions of words around negative cognitive experiences I would say that Einstein also said that the Moon does not cease to exist when you personally cannot see it.
And as Shakespeare wrote "Methinks the lady doth protest too much". In response to my precise and cogent arguments there seems to be also in Shakespeare's words "A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing".
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The definitions are Miriam-Webster. While they aren't OED quality, they do some basis for what they're supposed to mean... Although you're definitely onto something when it comes to moral relativism. That's another debate for another time.
It is my belief that the problem is that this game has way too much RNG in it. It's the amount of RNG that even the devs have commented on in the streams they've had. The thing is that when the game was new for all of us, we had little problem with the grind and the sinks in it as we were struggling with the learning curve. Now that we're done with that steep curve, it suddenly becomes a problem?
I don't think the time sink is the problem -- though it's the quickest to identify. I think the problem you identified is the true source of the issue: My main criticism has been pointed at the lack of emergent gameplay and storytelling in the latest iteration of the franchise. I don't think attacking the time sinks is a solution, but a diversion...
Which I will raise the question to you... What's the best way to wake FDev up?
The best way to wake them up would be spending less time declaring supreme dissatisfaction and more time explaining what would garner satisfaction. In your specific case, the lack of emergent gameplay is your cause for distress. I, too, agree there is a lack...and I also agree the vast majority of complaints in regards to ED are in fact just symptoms to this overarching 'source' problem.
To take an engineering bent to it: what is the 'root cause' of the symptoms? Lack of gameplay opportunities is my personal opinion.
Looking at mission structure, they all boil down to fetch quest mechanics. Go here, scan/scoop/shoot this. Return. Modifiers include use of stealth tactics and...use of stealth tactics. No other modifiers exist - all ships will be equipped on a scale of survivability to profitability, with the variance largely relying on ships being large or not, and having the capacity or not where applicable.
Looking at 'emergent' gameplay, combat boils down to scan, interdict, kill or drop on site, scan, kill. Difficulty varies with the target ship, its competency, and the quantity of enemies shooting back...with the latter being the most volatile on that difficulty scale. Two ships, even simple and small ships, can be radically more dangerous than a single, well-equipped ship.
For exploration...fly and scan. Randomly find cargo that is neither rare nor unique, and often not worth the time to drop from supercruise to begin with.
Trading, ironically, is almost the most fleshed out gameplay with the tried and true 'buy low, sell high' but lacks a robust economy and significant player input. The introduction of player trading, and more excitingly player production, could greatly improve the marketing and mining aspects of ED.
So all that said...back to my original point: we can spend all day hashing out what we don't like. Much as I and many others wish devs could wave a magic wand and generate engaging content, it doesn't work that way. They're great people - talented too, given Elite's history - but communities have time and again been a major source for inspiration, and this time is no different.
Utilize the focused feedback threads (currently Crime and Punishment discussion).
Present Feature Suggestions that don't solve problems but rather create content. Problem solving is for the devs, and general discussion is for the players to whine about those problems.
Ship, Module, and 'Tools' are all great suggestions - but are meaningless without content. "Here's a super powerful rocket launcher!" Woohoo...but combat is still the same. Tools do not generate content, they utilize it and expend it. Content is the actual 'activity'.
Deeper, more complex and dynamic markets.
Faction standings that have immediate as well as long lasting effects.
Crime and Punishment mechanics that bring to life the crime lord's life or give drive to the anti-pirates hunting them.
Passengers whose journeys have greater impacts not just during your travels but even afterwards.
Discoverable secrets for the many as well as the few, stellar phenomenon that are dangerous at distances as much as up close.
Locations across the galaxy that are worth visiting for more than screenshots and a lightyear counter.
Goals and events that are rich in lore and complex in their completion, requiring teamwork to not only complete but also thwart.
Goals and events that CAN be thwarted and have consequences when they are.
Powerplay politics that do more than change the color of dots on map, that have far-reaching consequences, and generate news or events as far as Colonia and beyond.
And so on and so forth.
The very best advice I can give is this: content cares not what ship you fly. A sidewinder, capable of basic cargo transport, exploration, and combat, should be able to do any content. Will it be harder or more time consuming? Yes, because it is such a small and simple ship...but it CAN do it.
THAT is content - when the tools exist because of the content, not the other way around.
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