Elite / Frontier Tips for a frustrated FE2 beginner?

After working my way up to a Viper on the safe Sol-Barnard's Star route I got bored and decided to put my lovely new ship to better use. Now I've found out why people complained about the FE2 combat model.

It started with my acceptance of a military delivery mission from Ross 154 to Altair. At about 2AU away from my destination I was "attacked" by what looked like a Cobra Mk III. I say "attacked" because, while it tracked me and kept darting for me like a mother bird defending young birds in a nest, it never actually fired anything. So I tried to track it myself using my (admittedly rusty) Elite I skills and found that my coordination really isn't up to fighting with FE2's combat model. While my beam laser was constantly beaming and slicing swish-swish across the Cobra's hull, it was always at too long a range to do any damage. There's absolutely no way I could keep it in my sights during its regular fly-bys at less than 8km range. It outran the four missiles that I fired at close range before I tried again with the beam laser.

A few times it appeared to retreat, far enough to allow me to ignore it, set the autopilot for my destination and activate the Stardreamer for a little while, but it kept coming back. Once I noticed that, if I left autopilot on, the Cobra would sweep slowly past my sights once or twice at a reasonable range and settle somewhere a little off-centre in front of me. Switching autopilot off and on again would cause it to veer off and then repeat the process. In this way I managed to destroy it by firing as it swept past my sights. Serves it right for coming to stare at me.

Before long I was attacked by a different ship with real weapons. I tried to track the ship properly but never scored a single hit. For some reason its lasers didn't appear to be having any effect on me. So after getting bored of the repeated swish-swish I tried the same tactic as I did with the Cobra. It started to do the same trick of passing through my sights, but destroyed me before it ever passed through my sights.

It strikes me that, when fighting properly, the other ship had as much trouble as I did actually hitting anything. It was only when I sat stock still - or more correctly, stayed at a constant heading and speed - that it managed to get any hit on me. At that rate I suppose I could have sat firing at it for several days until reaching my destination, but that doesn't strike me as an entertaining game.

All this has taken me about three hours of practice, without me being able to "get" the proper combat method. It didn't take me that long to master combat on the original Elite. Is there a trick I'm missing? If it's just practice, practice, practice, then I think I've got an awful long time of boredom and frustration before I get to enjoy the game again!
 
Remember you have a Newtonian flight model in FE2, so always go into combat with you engines off, not in manual because your directional thrusters will still fire to line your ship up to what ever direction you happen to be facing which will totally spoil your aim. Instead ,with engines off, try just using your main thrusters (enter key) and retro thrusters (shift key) to move your ship. Use your mouse to rotate your ship until you are facing your target, fire when ready.

Practice this technique with the Mars moon Phobos. Fly until you are within 5 km and come to a halt. Then try (just using your thrusters in engine off mode) keeping the moon in your cross hairs as you fly around it. Using this method you can soon get to grips with the flight model.

Did you ever watch Babylon 5? There was a ship in the series called the Starfury, which provided a great demonstration of this flight model, so watch a couple of those episodes too. Some clips are on you tube. I am sure DraQ will be along shortly with more advice ;)

In short, thrust your ship out of the enemy's line of fire, release thrust key, turn toward target and fire, simples!

Hope that helps! :)
 
Goodness, yes Turwhitt, quite correct, keyboard only for thrusters not movement. FE2 would be nearly impossible to play with just using keys, unlike the original Elite.
 
It strikes me that, when fighting properly, the other ship had as much trouble as I did actually hitting anything.
The main problem is that you were not fighting properly, and the other pilot was likely just as puzzled with your drunken master style as you were. I will explain details shortly.

It didn't take me that long to master combat on the original Elite.
Indeed, but original Elite had very simplistic flight model (that was later aped by about every spacesim in existence). Frontier's flight model is in no way similar to that used in the Elite and requires a little bit of mental readjustment. On the upside, it blows the arcade one used in the Elite out of the water then out of the atmosphere so hard that it's left hurtling away at steady 0.6c. It also gives you this nice warm feeling on the inside, that you're flying a spaceship in a way spaceship does fly while everyone else is flying around a room painted in psychadellic colours in modded WWI planes and making laser noises with their mouths.

But let's start our explanations, shall we?
Is there a trick I'm missing? If it's just practice, practice, practice, then I think I've got an awful long time of boredom and frustration before I get to enjoy the game again!

Yes, the trick is setting engines to the not-so-aptly named "engines off" mode. You'd also do best if you turned "use Elite control method in space" off if it's on - this is not Elite and Elite wasn't actually in space, so why make things harder for yourself? In Frontier there are three (four, if you count takeoff) ways ship's computer handles the engines:

1. Autopilot - lets the commander specify the destination and takes over, using ship's thrusters to get there and stop (relative to the destination) in a reasonably timely manner. It also lands/docks and asks for permissions on its own. Spiffy.

2. Manual, usually referred to as "set speed" around these parts - lets the commander set desired velocity (measured along it's long axis) and rotate ship freely, while the computer chooses frame of reference (because there is no such thing as absolute velocity, it's always relative to something), usually based on whichever body is gravitationally dominant at the moment, but it may also use other criteria allowing it to select space stations, or something completely off the wall, if the system gives it a headache. Then the computer works its magic with thrusters to set your velocity along axis to desired value, your lateral velocity to ZERO and continuously redjusts it as you rotate, change frames of reference or have other factors, like gravity change your velocity (actually it undercompensates for gravity to make landings possible).

3. Engines off, usually referred to as "full manual" here - computer relinquishes all control over engines (presumably only killing your ship rotation when you're not actively turning around) and lets you fire main and retro thrusters on full burn exactly when and for how long you think it's necessary.


To sum it up:

Autopilot:
[pilot: destination]->[computer: velocity vector]->[computer: thrusters]

Set speed:
[pilot: velocity vector]->[computer: thrusters]

Full manual:
[pilot: thrusters]

Note the changed naming convention as I will use it exclusively to help dispel any misconceptions in-game names set up.

On exiting autopilot you're typically in set speed mode. This mode is actually useful in many circumstances:
- when manoeuvring near planetary surface it will actively prevent you from falling down and crashing or drifting sideways, while still keeping your ship manoeuvrable at low speeds around 1000-3000 km/h, so it can even be used for atmospheric combat where you need to account for gravity, have meaningful frame of reference and where air resistance limits use of special manoeuvres anyway.
- when manoeuvring near space stations if you're not experienced pilot (or can't be bothered).
- when manoeuvring around the system at high velocities and high settings of stardreamer, when reaction time measured in hours or even days is not an issue (though typically you will either use full manual or autopilot in such cases anyway).

Unfortunately it is completely inadequate for space battles and here is why:

In typical space battle scenario you're intercepted while you're doing around several thousand km/s relative to the most relevant frame of reference. Set speed adjusts your velocity relative to this frame of reference but at speeds involved your velocity vector relative to the frame of reference won't change noticeably for the entire duration of combat. This is the source of one of the main misconceptions among beginners - that they are going too fast to manoeuvre. This is not the case - no matter how fast are you going relative to your frame of reference, you are generally not moving faster than several thousand km/h relative to your target, similarly here on Earth the fact that you're going about 30km/s around the Sun has no bearing on your ability to walk around your room. Unfortunately that also means that any velocity indicators apart from direct visual examination and the pace at which the distance to your target changes are utterly meaningless and completely misleading in deep space combat.
The reason why set speed fails so horribly in deep space combat is that its inability to keep up doesn't prevent it from trying. Depending on whether your set speed is higher, lower or equal than your actual one mains, retros or no thrusters at all will fire when you're pointing at your destination - effectively you will accelerate forward or backwards without any control or be a sitting duck. If you're pointing the opposite way, your mains will continuously fire at full burn (attempting to counter your tremendous velocity) causing you to accelerate out of control relative to your target. If you are pointing sideways, your mains will fire at full burn attempting to build velocity in that direction (again, making you accelerate out of control), while lateral thrusters will attempt to kill the velocity you already have (making you accelerate out of control SIDEWAYS).
All in all you can expect as much control over your ship as you'd have if you tried ice-skating with live JATO strapped to your back. Plus another one - sideways.

Now, full manual (remember, it's called "engines off" in game) is rather straightforward thanks not trying to be smart or user friendly. You press [enter] - your mains fire at full burn. You press [shift] - your retros do. This means you can accelerate forward or backward as you wish. If you don't press anything, your velocity doesn't change unless you're in atmosphere or under influence of gravity. There are several helpful tricks here, for example not holding enter all the time (repeat after me "accelerate out of control"), knowing when to brake (with retros) and so on. Unfortunately, you'll have to mostly grok it yourself, the only helpful advice I can give is missile avoidance (easy in FE2, hard in FFE, you just have to turn towards the middle of the curve made by the missile as it homes on you and accelerate, repeat as long as necessary - it's based on similar tactics used by modern military choppers to try to evade fighter jets in case of attack) and laser avoidance (accelerate towards target but slightly to the side - you will want to both move aside and close the distance so that the enemy will be unable to keep tracking you even at low speeds, after you're reasonably close you will want to brake to not overshoot your target, turn around to have it in your sight and stick close).

Also, click and scroll down - it's for JJFFE (improved version of FFE), so some things like Jordanian Controls (full thruster control, not just main and retro, via numpad introduced by John Jordan) may not be relevant to FE2, but the overall mechanics is exactly the same in both games.
 
Flight School

DraQ, with your permission, could I copy and paste your last post into another forum (Amibay)? Some of the good Amiga folk there could benefit from your FE2 flight instruction wisdom.
 
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Worry not DraQ, I will PM you what I wrote ;)

EDIT: Drat! I cant PM you with a message over 5000 characters long. Do you want me to try posting it here?
 
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Amibay Posting

Here you go DraQ, no one has replied as yet:

"Ok good folks Of Amibay, today I was on the Frontier Forum and one of the regular members on there, DraQ, posted some helpful hints in getting to grips with the flight model in FE2. So with his permission I post an excerpt from it below:

Original Post By DraQ
"Yes, the trick is setting engines to the not-so-aptly named "engines off" mode. You'd also do best if you turned "use Elite control method in space" off if it's on - this is not Elite and Elite wasn't actually in space, so why make things harder for yourself? In Frontier there are three (four, if you count takeoff) ways ship's computer handles the engines:

1. Autopilot - lets the commander specify the destination and takes over, using ship's thrusters to get there and stop (relative to the destination) in a reasonably timely manner. It also lands/docks and asks for permissions on its own. Spiffy.

2. Manual, usually referred to as "set speed" around these parts - lets the commander set desired velocity (measured along it's long axis) and rotate ship freely, while the computer chooses frame of reference (because there is no such thing as absolute velocity, it's always relative to something), usually based on whichever body is gravitationally dominant at the moment, but it may also use other criteria allowing it to select space stations, or something completely off the wall, if the system gives it a headache. Then the computer works its magic with thrusters to set your velocity along axis to desired value, your lateral velocity to ZERO and continuously redjusts it as you rotate, change frames of reference or have other factors, like gravity change your velocity (actually it undercompensates for gravity to make landings possible).

3. Engines off, usually referred to as "full manual" here - computer relinquishes all control over engines (presumably only killing your ship rotation when you're not actively turning around) and lets you fire main and retro thrusters on full burn exactly when and for how long you think it's necessary.


To sum it up:

Autopilot:
[pilot: destination]->[computer: velocity vector]->[computer: thrusters]

Set speed:
[pilot: velocity vector]->[computer: thrusters]

Full manual:
[pilot: thrusters]

Note the changed naming convention as I will use it exclusively to help dispel any misconceptions in-game names set up.

On exiting autopilot you're typically in set speed mode. This mode is actually useful in many circumstances:
- when manoeuvring near planetary surface it will actively prevent you from falling down and crashing or drifting sideways, while still keeping your ship manoeuvrable at low speeds around 1000-3000 km/h, so it can even be used for atmospheric combat where you need to account for gravity, have meaningful frame of reference and where air resistance limits use of special manoeuvres anyway.
- when manoeuvring near space stations if you're not experienced pilot (or can't be bothered).
- when manoeuvring around the system at high velocities and high settings of stardreamer, when reaction time measured in hours or even days is not an issue (though typically you will either use full manual or autopilot in such cases anyway).

Unfortunately it is completely inadequate for space battles and here is why:

In typical space battle scenario you're intercepted while you're doing around several thousand km/s relative to the most relevant frame of reference. Set speed adjusts your velocity relative to this frame of reference but at speeds involved your velocity vector relative to the frame of reference won't change noticeably for the entire duration of combat. This is the source of one of the main misconceptions among beginners - that they are going too fast to manoeuvre. This is not the case - no matter how fast are you going relative to your frame of reference, you are generally not moving faster than several thousand km/h relative to your target, similarly here on Earth the fact that you're going about 30km/s around the Sun has no bearing on your ability to walk around your room. Unfortunately that also means that any velocity indicators apart from direct visual examination and the pace at which the distance to your target changes are utterly meaningless and completely misleading in deep space combat.
The reason why set speed fails so horribly in deep space combat is that its inability to keep up doesn't prevent it from trying. Depending on whether your set speed is higher, lower or equal than your actual one mains, retros or no thrusters at all will fire when you're pointing at your destination - effectively you will accelerate forward or backwards without any control or be a sitting duck. If you're pointing the opposite way, your mains will continuously fire at full burn (attempting to counter your tremendous velocity) causing you to accelerate out of control relative to your target. If you are pointing sideways, your mains will fire at full burn attempting to build velocity in that direction (again, making you accelerate out of control), while lateral thrusters will attempt to kill the velocity you already have (making you accelerate out of control SIDEWAYS).
All in all you can expect as much control over your ship as you'd have if you tried ice-skating with live JATO strapped to your back. Plus another one - sideways.

Now, full manual (remember, it's called "engines off" in game) is rather straightforward thanks not trying to be smart or user friendly. You press [enter] - your mains fire at full burn. You press [shift] - your retros do. This means you can accelerate forward or backward as you wish. If you don't press anything, your velocity doesn't change unless you're in atmosphere or under influence of gravity. There are several helpful tricks here, for example not holding enter all the time (repeat after me "accelerate out of control"), knowing when to brake (with retros) and so on. Unfortunately, you'll have to mostly grok it yourself, the only helpful advice I can give is missile avoidance (easy in FE2, hard in FFE, you just have to turn towards the middle of the curve made by the missile as it homes on you and accelerate, repeat as long as necessary - it's based on similar tactics used by modern military choppers to try to evade fighter jets in case of attack) and laser avoidance (accelerate towards target but slightly to the side - you will want to both move aside and close the distance so that the enemy will be unable to keep tracking you even at low speeds, after you're reasonably close you will want to brake to not overshoot your target, turn around to have it in your sight and stick close).

Also, click and scroll down - it's for JJFFE (improved version of FFE), so some things like Jordanian Controls (full thruster control, not just main and retro, via numpad introduced by John Jordan) may not be relevant to FE2, but the overall mechanics is exactly the same in both games."

Hope you found that helpful. If you want to read the original post here is a link http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthr...ed=1#post17209"

I should point out that the link you provided does work in the Amibay post, but for some reason it doesn't in this one :S
 
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Cool. If someone has any questions you can send them this way - I figure that this forum could use some extra users. Else just forward the questions here.
 
Well, that's the reason I left the link at the bottom of the post and your right, this forum could always do with more members. :)
 
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