TMTK assets being rendered when not placed!
- Thread starter willibix
- Start date
I hadn't check the Issue Tracker for a while, but found this posted
Anyone have contact with Daddy Poe or someone who has more information on this?
I'll admit to being puzzled as to why Frontier wouldn't know if their engine loads all the TMTK files with every park or not. It's a simple question. If 'yes' then they should know to suggest to players not to download excessive numbers of TMTK items so as to not increase lag, and perhaps just maybe try to find a solution around that problem since TMTK was supposed to be such a big feature of this game.
If the answer is 'no' then the rest of us would know that the number of TMTK items we download aren't all in turn being loaded when we open any bench and everyone can go back to creating and using them.
Anyone have contact with Daddy Poe or someone who has more information on this?
I'll admit to being puzzled as to why Frontier wouldn't know if their engine loads all the TMTK files with every park or not. It's a simple question. If 'yes' then they should know to suggest to players not to download excessive numbers of TMTK items so as to not increase lag, and perhaps just maybe try to find a solution around that problem since TMTK was supposed to be such a big feature of this game.
If the answer is 'no' then the rest of us would know that the number of TMTK items we download aren't all in turn being loaded when we open any bench and everyone can go back to creating and using them.
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Hi community, sorry for late response but some of you have already experienced. the difference in fps with and without tmtk items. That said I typically wait before reporting said problems. because i like to see if the issue is isolated to me or if others with high and low end systems and/or streamers also experience the same issue.
What iv'e found is the issue is mostly related to low end GPUs or old models with old drivers. I have the latest updated drivers for my gpu but it is also old. I can play the game but i am limited to about 10 tmtk items or my game tanks. And when I stream my game tanks to a point of being unplayable. This I believe is the reason only some users are experiencing this issue while others with high end or new gpu's are not experiencing this problem at all. This isn't some thing that frontier can fix. As its related to hardware. I'm sure if I get a new gpu and more memory then this would resolve it self.
There is also another issue as well in relation but, i feel its more of steams problem or my ISP then frontiers. When a new tmtk item is sub'ed it seems to hang up on first game load. After you load say a sandbox and save then restart the game its fine.
but, lately after the last game update. I have also experienced game crashes with having any tmtk items. but this could just be isolated to me
thanks,
Daddy Poe
What iv'e found is the issue is mostly related to low end GPUs or old models with old drivers. I have the latest updated drivers for my gpu but it is also old. I can play the game but i am limited to about 10 tmtk items or my game tanks. And when I stream my game tanks to a point of being unplayable. This I believe is the reason only some users are experiencing this issue while others with high end or new gpu's are not experiencing this problem at all. This isn't some thing that frontier can fix. As its related to hardware. I'm sure if I get a new gpu and more memory then this would resolve it self.
There is also another issue as well in relation but, i feel its more of steams problem or my ISP then frontiers. When a new tmtk item is sub'ed it seems to hang up on first game load. After you load say a sandbox and save then restart the game its fine.
but, lately after the last game update. I have also experienced game crashes with having any tmtk items. but this could just be isolated to me
thanks,
Daddy Poe
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Oh 1 more thing, Id like to point out. Blindly blaming performance issues over TMTK items isn't a good way to look at it. I'm sure some have removed the items and noticed a performance boost. This isn't just because of the TMTK items. With any game assets, the more items you have the longer the game will take to load. A good example of seeing this in play. Is try loading Planet coaster without the DLC and then try loading it with 1 or 2 DLC. You will notice the game loading faster without the DLC because you don't have the extra DLC content installed. Most of the stigma I've seen, is because you can delete the TMTK items its assumed that is the problem. Also, because you added extra stuff to your game the loading takes longer, this is normal. But, to add more to the thought. There are several mega parks on the workshop that dont have any tmtk items and they lag or crash all the same.
Simply put its because its to many polygons for your system memory or gpu to handle. Upgrade your system or make smaller parks with less details. All games have limitations and I'm sure this limitation is the key reason frontier focused on making facades and box shops. A rather clever way of keeping performance minimal. There previous game rct3 was 3d but the actual play space was more isometric and zooming in just was not an option. So there was no way of knowing players would go way over the top of placing so may models in 1 sandbox. but, this did show them the cons and im sure they will come up with a better solution to minimize pollys without using the outdated lod,method. for instance unity uses render draw. the only polys loaded into the game are the ones your directly looking at in the camera. Some other developers have created a mesh smelter mechanic. When making a blue print with multiple models. any polys not view-able to the game void are not rendered. "removed/deleted" from the blue print. Which in turn reduces clipping and unwanted render of not seen polys. So hopefully will see this kind of stuff in relation to performance in a Planet Coaster 2 or 3 game.
Simply put its because its to many polygons for your system memory or gpu to handle. Upgrade your system or make smaller parks with less details. All games have limitations and I'm sure this limitation is the key reason frontier focused on making facades and box shops. A rather clever way of keeping performance minimal. There previous game rct3 was 3d but the actual play space was more isometric and zooming in just was not an option. So there was no way of knowing players would go way over the top of placing so may models in 1 sandbox. but, this did show them the cons and im sure they will come up with a better solution to minimize pollys without using the outdated lod,method. for instance unity uses render draw. the only polys loaded into the game are the ones your directly looking at in the camera. Some other developers have created a mesh smelter mechanic. When making a blue print with multiple models. any polys not view-able to the game void are not rendered. "removed/deleted" from the blue print. Which in turn reduces clipping and unwanted render of not seen polys. So hopefully will see this kind of stuff in relation to performance in a Planet Coaster 2 or 3 game.
It angers me a little to see this thread, most readers will lose even more trust in TMTK assets just by looking at the title.
And it is not really based on facts, but on assumptions.
The GPU will NOT render what isn't there. PERIOD.
The GPU cache might grab a file it's not supposed to pick, but it will not transfer to a render instruction.
The issue at hand is low-end computers, and sorry to say this, but there is only so much optimization with Vanilla, DLC and TMTK possible on the developer side.
It doesn't matter what kind of asset it is, except for really badly done LOD reduction on particular TMTK models and a few select Frontier assets.
In the end it really depends on the creator, and therefore a certain difference should be made in the judgement of whether to subscribe to their items, or not.
I run my PlanCo on a 1080Ti with a Intel 7700k, that's not low-end, though not top-notch either (it was 4 years ago)
I can run it fluidly with (and including all my TMTK-made assets) above 60fps at over 10k guests with way over 90k individual objects spawned, no crashes, no crazy lag EXCEPT FOR when it autosaves, which is just logical given the strain on the memory pipeline.
Everyone should be aware that PlanCo is a balance act between individual freedom of creativity and limitation of assets.
There is NO Magic Wand that will make this go away. You want to build more detailed parks,
you will have to at one point look into upgrading your system. There is no way around that,
and therefore i think this thread is pointless, as it's not factual (please provide some actual information on the supposed rendering of unspawned objects in PlanCo)
as it is only an assumtion of what might cause lag. In the last update in January/February the LOD distance for TMTK items has been nerfed, this was to balance out the
high poly count most LODs are taking up (AND IT DEPENDS ON THE CREATOR, WHETHER HE TAKES THE TIME TO REDUCE IT TO THE MOST OPTIMAL LEVEL, OR NOT) The same thing happened in RCT3 back in the days, just with more severe effects. Not all modders know or care about how to build a performant model
and in RCT3 it caused crashes and lag to a point where the game became too unstable to do anything with (from a user's perspective)
The big difference is, PlanCo is way more stable, and the tight limitations of the TMTK converter prevent models that are too extreme in polycount and size
to be implemented. But as much as i would want to complain about FDev's handling of PlaCo modding, this is as optimized as can be, towards performance.
If you want to go crazy with whatever you want to do within PlanCo, upgrade your RAM, your GPU and maybe your CPU, if you want that enjoyable experience.
You wouldn't overload your car by a large margin and expect it to still drive as intended, no? Same applies here.
I can't confirm the GPU instructs a drawcall for unspawned TMTK items, i have seen ZERO evidence pointing towards this.
Those assets are handled the same by the Engine as Vanilla, with the exception of LOD-draw distances (and even that's not a confirmed fact, but a subjective observation)
Stay safe, everyone!
ArtificialArtist
And it is not really based on facts, but on assumptions.
The GPU will NOT render what isn't there. PERIOD.
The GPU cache might grab a file it's not supposed to pick, but it will not transfer to a render instruction.
The issue at hand is low-end computers, and sorry to say this, but there is only so much optimization with Vanilla, DLC and TMTK possible on the developer side.
It doesn't matter what kind of asset it is, except for really badly done LOD reduction on particular TMTK models and a few select Frontier assets.
In the end it really depends on the creator, and therefore a certain difference should be made in the judgement of whether to subscribe to their items, or not.
I run my PlanCo on a 1080Ti with a Intel 7700k, that's not low-end, though not top-notch either (it was 4 years ago)
I can run it fluidly with (and including all my TMTK-made assets) above 60fps at over 10k guests with way over 90k individual objects spawned, no crashes, no crazy lag EXCEPT FOR when it autosaves, which is just logical given the strain on the memory pipeline.
Everyone should be aware that PlanCo is a balance act between individual freedom of creativity and limitation of assets.
There is NO Magic Wand that will make this go away. You want to build more detailed parks,
you will have to at one point look into upgrading your system. There is no way around that,
and therefore i think this thread is pointless, as it's not factual (please provide some actual information on the supposed rendering of unspawned objects in PlanCo)
as it is only an assumtion of what might cause lag. In the last update in January/February the LOD distance for TMTK items has been nerfed, this was to balance out the
high poly count most LODs are taking up (AND IT DEPENDS ON THE CREATOR, WHETHER HE TAKES THE TIME TO REDUCE IT TO THE MOST OPTIMAL LEVEL, OR NOT) The same thing happened in RCT3 back in the days, just with more severe effects. Not all modders know or care about how to build a performant model
and in RCT3 it caused crashes and lag to a point where the game became too unstable to do anything with (from a user's perspective)
The big difference is, PlanCo is way more stable, and the tight limitations of the TMTK converter prevent models that are too extreme in polycount and size
to be implemented. But as much as i would want to complain about FDev's handling of PlaCo modding, this is as optimized as can be, towards performance.
If you want to go crazy with whatever you want to do within PlanCo, upgrade your RAM, your GPU and maybe your CPU, if you want that enjoyable experience.
You wouldn't overload your car by a large margin and expect it to still drive as intended, no? Same applies here.
I can't confirm the GPU instructs a drawcall for unspawned TMTK items, i have seen ZERO evidence pointing towards this.
Those assets are handled the same by the Engine as Vanilla, with the exception of LOD-draw distances (and even that's not a confirmed fact, but a subjective observation)
Stay safe, everyone!
ArtificialArtist
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Since around 14th Dec. 2018 animations don't work as intended when exported from 3Ds Max or other authoring tools, nor does a combination of Flexi
and SP work from Max exported fbx models. It's either one or the other, plus many, many other issues.
And why? Cause the TMTK was "fixed" to specifically cater to Blender, as more TMTK modders use Blender opposed to Max, Maya etc.
I stopped pointing out the errors with other authoring tools, as no one cared to fix it, nor did people care.
I've thrown over a dozen animated and highly detailed models out of the window basically, and even had to take several breaks as it was so annoying on so many occasions to work with a broken TMTK tool, which often had you waste your time on pointless testing for workarounds.
But the Blender users still keep complaining and make a communal fuss about the most mediocre things.
How about you appreciate that YOUR issues have all been adressed to the cost of non-Blender users?
How about you take some more time to optimize your LODs, as that's most often what's causing lag for other people who use your assets.
But noooo, it's easier to put the blame elsewhere, someone makes an unsubstanciated claim and the whole community jumps on the panic train...
all the while not taking into account the FACTS, that if PlanCo lags on your end, other AAA games and even some Indie games that don't look too detailed surely do so as well, don't they?.
So why push for more "fixes" of things that have to do with performance, as this will result in further chaos and nerfing.
And in reality, it has nothing to do with any bugs or false code within the game itself.
About a year ago I brought up the idea of a benchmark tool to enable creators to test their items before publishing them to the workshop,
which would actually be extremely beneficial in PlanCo performing better, and for not so experienced creators to be able to see whether there's something they could still do
to make their models perform better ingame, resulting in less lag for the subscribers. The way it is now, you need a lot of experience in game design to know how to not put excessive amounts of strain on the engine.
I didn't see ANY of you promoting that useful feature to Frontier, instead it went ignored.
Someone else tried to push the idea of a downloadable Toolkit conversion tool, also a longer while ago and to no avail and with little support from the community.
All this thread tells me is, no one really has an interest in putting forward ideas to make it better, or support those ideas in a way they reach FDev.
It's like someone shouts "FIRE" and everyone goes like "omg omg omg, duck and cover! Run! Call Batman!" .... whilst no one cares to ask "where".
(If they did care to look at the fact of the matter and not the noise of it, they would find out it's just a cozy fire on a big TV screen.)
Yeah, i'm being harsh, but someone needed to say this, might as well be me. And it's just the bare truth.
and SP work from Max exported fbx models. It's either one or the other, plus many, many other issues.
And why? Cause the TMTK was "fixed" to specifically cater to Blender, as more TMTK modders use Blender opposed to Max, Maya etc.
I stopped pointing out the errors with other authoring tools, as no one cared to fix it, nor did people care.
I've thrown over a dozen animated and highly detailed models out of the window basically, and even had to take several breaks as it was so annoying on so many occasions to work with a broken TMTK tool, which often had you waste your time on pointless testing for workarounds.
But the Blender users still keep complaining and make a communal fuss about the most mediocre things.
How about you appreciate that YOUR issues have all been adressed to the cost of non-Blender users?
How about you take some more time to optimize your LODs, as that's most often what's causing lag for other people who use your assets.
But noooo, it's easier to put the blame elsewhere, someone makes an unsubstanciated claim and the whole community jumps on the panic train...
all the while not taking into account the FACTS, that if PlanCo lags on your end, other AAA games and even some Indie games that don't look too detailed surely do so as well, don't they?.
So why push for more "fixes" of things that have to do with performance, as this will result in further chaos and nerfing.
And in reality, it has nothing to do with any bugs or false code within the game itself.
About a year ago I brought up the idea of a benchmark tool to enable creators to test their items before publishing them to the workshop,
which would actually be extremely beneficial in PlanCo performing better, and for not so experienced creators to be able to see whether there's something they could still do
to make their models perform better ingame, resulting in less lag for the subscribers. The way it is now, you need a lot of experience in game design to know how to not put excessive amounts of strain on the engine.
I didn't see ANY of you promoting that useful feature to Frontier, instead it went ignored.
Someone else tried to push the idea of a downloadable Toolkit conversion tool, also a longer while ago and to no avail and with little support from the community.
All this thread tells me is, no one really has an interest in putting forward ideas to make it better, or support those ideas in a way they reach FDev.
It's like someone shouts "FIRE" and everyone goes like "omg omg omg, duck and cover! Run! Call Batman!" .... whilst no one cares to ask "where".
(If they did care to look at the fact of the matter and not the noise of it, they would find out it's just a cozy fire on a big TV screen.)
Yeah, i'm being harsh, but someone needed to say this, might as well be me. And it's just the bare truth.
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@ArtiX , you are totally right! I'm just new here, have the game since February 2021, but I make TMTK items myself and work very hard to make items very low poly. I found out that the poly count is less important than the size of the textures. Where it's possible I've already changed the size of the textures. But, I see items in the workshop, that could be very low poly, but are very big in Mb's. In some video's people added to Youtube, they said they didn't care about the LOD's. Or in some tutorial video's they used an object they've found on the internet, didn't do anything about that item and uploaded it as it is to the workshop. About 90% of the items you can download from the internet is still high poly for games, even if they say it's low poly. That's the problem with things like the toolkit, everyone can upload meshes as long as they match the 6 LOD's and the triangle count. Even if every part they upload is the max of the triangle count the toolkit accepts. You can do so much with bump maps, you don't need all the details in your mesh. If you look at one of my latest items in the workshop, you can see so much detail on plain walls. It looks like I've did a lot of wooden planks in my mesh, but it's only a flat box with some beams, nothing more. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2459128933