Powerplay To EVE, or not to EVE? That is the question...

[Anubite]

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.


...The question many players in guilds will be deciding in the coming weeks.


Is it worth allowing EVE-like constructs outside of the game to take hold within a guild and for guild-to-guild communication? Leaders forming where there were none before. Said leaders working with other guild leaders behind closed doors and under an unquestionable pretense of necessary cooperation and it's purported benefits?


Or should such things be called out where they stand? Critiqued and, if necessary, decried? Will the sentinels who seek to keep their guild's sanctity endure the hardships of being deemed too negative, too rooted in their misappropriated beliefs, perhaps even an outright nutter? All where one merely wishes for continuation of good time with friends they might call family, without divisive politics and the Machiavellian use of others.


I implore you, remember that once the genie is out of the bottle you will no longer have the option to ask what happens after wish #3.

 

[Anubite]

Clarification: I wrote this in hopes more people remain vigilant for their guilds. I get sick every time I see a good group go bad for good reason, and the co-opt almost always plays out the same.


As Follows: A management team will arise and sell themselves as the most clear and only ready means required to facilitate cooperation and achieve expediency in unity; "most clear" and "only ready" worthy of an earnest debate that never happens. This team presents to everyone the benign possibility of expanding successful results of operations beyond what is current.


Prominent members trusted with affairs are presented an unspoken opportunity; to solidify authority in the guild using concepts of expediency and "common sense" cooperation. There exists no better chance for seizing control than one that consolidates power in a way deemed both beneficial and necessary...other than one you also help to broker.


All it takes is one corrupted member aided by those who listen to their argument, aides who see truth or may gain influence from success. Merely mentioning the smell of fish is enough for the house of cards to stuff someone with words; they are then nitpicked, eviscerated, and belittled with lines like "it's a game, who would take time to do that," "can you stop being so negative," "you should just let this go," and "ARE YOU BLIND," all encouraged by the trusted admins of a group one had just called friends and simply sought to keep.


For power and influence, respected members deemed an issue are reduced to a caricature; Negative Nancies wearing tin-foil hats, stuck in baseless convictions and unable to see the good intent of others who use their own time and effort IRL to work for us all when they didn't have to.


With the shadow-government in full swing it's members sit back and have the fun they always wanted. All it takes is a well-disseminated pretense and the whole mob is off rioting without a true cause and everyone is left to pick up the mess. Anger Winters because you simply want a PvP war? "It's ok, Aisling's Angles will fortify with undying loyalty to the blue figurehead." Problem people will be sacrificed, problem guilds lead to sacrifice them under threat of excommunication from the cooperative mass.

In the end, is this truly what we want Elite to be? To become known for? I think Frontier understood the depth of what I am getting at when they said "no way" to in-game PP cooperation. I think we all need to understand why it may not be so clear in reasoning to go ahead and form such power structures on our own.

 

[GunnerBill]

TL Did Read!
Maybe I'm not keeping up with galactic politics but us ED going to set up actual Player controlled guilds?

Not sure I like the idea of areas of space controlled by player factions.

But then space is big.

 

[avow555]

TL Did Read!
Maybe I'm not keeping up with galactic politics but us ED going to set up actual Player controlled guilds?

Not sure I like the idea of areas of space controlled by player factions.

But then space is big.

No they are not going to allow player guilds in this game or any other Eve styled massive gank/control gameplay.
Elite has a unique style of play more focused on the individual and long may it last.

 

[GunnerBill]

No they are not going to allow player guilds in this game or any other Eve styled massive gank/control gameplay.
Elite has a unique style of play more focused on the individual and long may it last.

Relief! (Sighs)

 

[Daffan]

You don't need player ran corps

but what you need is player agency

this solo grinding npc fest is not good at all. There is no risk, there is no meaningful gameplay or immrsion.

 

[Anubite]

<snip>

Replace with "Anger Winters because you simply want a PvP war, but it may lead to turmoil?" for better context.

I am not sure why this was over-edited. I can't edit, yet, myself.

EDIT: Replaced, I have the right after post three or something.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Yes to EVE like stuff. Yes to depth.

 

[Anubite]

Yes to EVE like stuff. Yes to depth.

"The penguin is black and white. Newspaper is black and white. Penguins must be newspaper!" Sorry, everything is not as simple as black and white.

You can achieve significantly more depth using trapezoid power structure instead of the more familiar pyramid.

There will be more collective identities centered around the lore of a PP figure, together forming a face. Not a face seized by a control-hungry clique placed in power by leaders reinforcing their own value to their guild in the name of cooperation; but a face that embodies the soul of the faction-aligned players who, on the whole, are there to have a good time playing a good game with good people without such immense pettiness.

Additionally, this adds visible dynamics inside major factions in addition to simply between them, indispensable to the writers at Frontier. You really want a few random people forming a "will of the Emperor" you and Frontier never have a say in, while taking destructive and cliche initiatives in full game-of-thrones fashion because they have plebeians to clean up the mess?

 

[Ant_Solo]

You really want a few random people forming a "will of the Emperor" you and Frontier never have a say in, while taking destructive and cliche initiatives in full game-of-thrones fashion because they have plebeians to clean up the mess?

Yes.

The powers need people willing and able to plan and organised those players that want to be organised. That is the key thing here, leadership of any sort is always leadership by consent. If you don't want to follow, you don't have to. Leaders are only leaders as long as they make good decisions (or until they retire gracefully making sure the power is in safe hands).

If you want to be in leadership go and be useful, there is a natural churn in leadership positions and those that help and are intelligent will rise to the top.

EVE has nothing to do with anything going on here, the fact is that there are good things and mistakes that could be learned from EVE.


Lastly your use of language seems to me to be deliberately obtuse, it is annoying to read. I will pick up on just one point though. More than one pleb are called plebs, not plebians. To use the wrong word when trying to call someone a pleb is an entertaining irony.


Full disclosure: Retired leader of Hudson. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.

 

[fademist]

You don't need player ran corps

but what you need is player agency

this solo grinding npc fest is not good at all. There is no risk, there is no meaningful gameplay or immrsion.

keep that to other thread...

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Yes to EVE like stuff. Yes to depth.

Then EVE stuff can stay to EVE click festival...

 

[Anubite]

...

Your attempt to skirt a detailed point by calling it obtuse shows the shallow extent of your character. Also, you misspelled plebeians, which is in fact the plural form of plebeian. Return under your bridge, now.

 

[Jack Scallywag]

I can't understand why people who only play Solo/Private care if the rest of us actually enjoy Multi-player in open play. Can't even have organized groups. All this does is force players to use IRC or some other software, ruining immersion.

PP could have some meaning if it wasn't a shared universe with god knows how many private groups.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Your attempt to skirt a detailed point by calling it obtuse shows the shallow extent of your character. Also, you misspelled plebeians, which is in fact the plural form of plebeian. Return under your bridge, now.

You are a nutter.

Pleb is the noun.

Plebeian is an adjective in English. Something is Plebeian, someone is a pleb.

 

[xondk]

Main problem for me with eve online is the skill system, unless its been changed lately, the amount of hours you have to put in to get anywhere, in a subscription based game, (though yes you can buy plex) just makes me go..ow...probably will return sometime, been playing with the idea, but yeah, Eve is definitely an in it for the long haul game.

 

[Thor Eriksen]

Eve is the way it is because people want it to be that way. The developers of that game only added formal power structures to clans/guilds/whatever because people who were participating in that activity informally wanted, and demanded, in-game means to do that.

 

[Herik]

TL Did Read!
Maybe I'm not keeping up with galactic politics but us ED going to set up actual Player controlled guilds?

Not sure I like the idea of areas of space controlled by player factions.

But then space is big.

Yes Big....but there is a bottleneck of only a 100 thousand plus Star systems. And these are the ones which would be 'Guildied'.

 

[Cosmo]

Guilds in Elite are currently non-existent. There's no player guilds and we don't have the tools to run a guild in-game.

There will always be people who behave badly in every game. Best you can do is ignore or report them.

There's much demand for guild-features and deep multiplayer. I think frontier should add it as soon as possible.

 

[Libluini]

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.


...The question many players in guilds will be deciding in the coming weeks.


Is it worth allowing EVE-like constructs outside of the game to take hold within a guild and for guild-to-guild communication? Leaders forming where there were none before. Said leaders working with other guild leaders behind closed doors and under an unquestionable pretense of necessary cooperation and it's purported benefits?


Or should such things be called out where they stand? Critiqued and, if necessary, decried? Will the sentinels who seek to keep their guild's sanctity endure the hardships of being deemed too negative, too rooted in their misappropriated beliefs, perhaps even an outright nutter? All where one merely wishes for continuation of good time with friends they might call family, without divisive politics and the Machiavellian use of others.


I implore you, remember that once the genie is out of the bottle you will no longer have the option to ask what happens after wish #3.

Are you mental? Those structures outside the game are appearing because Frontier didn't do enough to help players inside the game itself. What is negative in players working together?

Besides, please stop using overly flowery prose, it makes you look like a troll, even if this is your honest opinion.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

If anyone wants a translation of this hard-to-read waffle (or as OP would put it, obfuscatingly loquacious prose), I do my best below.

Should Elite enable group politics?

It could have negative consequences and be difficult to reverse.

For instance, groups tend to have leaders. These leaders might make bad decisions and act selfishly. Group members who criticise them risk being made to leave.

This might be bad for the game

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I think OP is trying to use fundamental recurring problems in the way humans interact as an argument against facilitating social interaction in-game (while using flowery prose to conceal the weakness of their arguments).

Players will form groups regardless of tools. Warning against social interaction in Elite by criticising the nature of human interaction on a base level is pretty laughable