To much emphasis on grind and not enough on gameplay?? (feedback)

[Wildeheart]

I love Elite.

There is nothing that feels better for spaceflight / immersion especially in VR. Sadly the game really falls flat when you begin trying to actually play it. Quickly one can fall into the feeling you need to grind for whatever type of progress you want to achieve. Yes you can probably get by without grinding but then you may also find the things you really want to do limited in some, not insignificant, measure.

There really needs to be alternative ways to achieve things, like engineering materials, that don't encourage exit farming as a means to bypass unwanted, repetitive, engagement abusive "gameplay". Something as "simple" as an auction house system enables players of many types to find their way doing what they like whilst still having a means to get what they need for their own meaningful progress. I put simple in quotes since I do realise the idea may be simple but, surely, the implementation not so much.

These are just my thoughts, right or wrong, after returning, once again, to play Elite till the pain points become overwhelming. Which they inevitably do all to quickly. I am indeed one that still remembers the grand ideas/ideals from David Braben's kick-starter videos and still hope somewhere at Frontier those dreams still exists.

I am no game developer just someone that loves to experience them. It feels all to obvious, to me, that Elite is lacking in cohesive functional gameplay across it's disparate systems and there are many developers out there that have come up with clever ways to overcome Elite's hurdles. I still feel Elite could be amazing but time, effort, creativity and express communication are desperately needed.

Again these are just me feelings and thoughts and as I sat here this morning trying to decide if I really wanted to play more or move on once again I felt the need to write them down. We are all different and see things from different perspectives.

 

[Factabulous]

Pretty sure they don't want you to grind, but it's hard to stop ppl https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369

Not sure adding a Pay2Win auction house would help you - except you'd get to know what most have worked out - the 'grind' is learning how to play - and once you've done it you are basically done. Unless you learned things along the way to keep you interested. Which wouldn't happen if you get to pay to get there ...

 

[ethelred]

I love Elite.

There is nothing that feels better for spaceflight / immersion especially in VR. Sadly the game really falls flat when you begin trying to actually play it. Quickly one can fall into the feeling you need to grind for whatever type of progress you want to achieve. Yes you can probably get by without grinding but then you may also find the things you really want to do limited in some, not insignificant, measure.

There really needs to be alternative ways to achieve things, like engineering materials, that don't encourage exit farming as a means to bypass unwanted, repetitive, engagement abusive "gameplay". Something as "simple" as an auction house system enables players of many types to find their way doing what they like whilst still having a means to get what they need for their own meaningful progress. I put simple in quotes since I do realise the idea may be simple but, surely, the implementation not so much.

These are just my thoughts, right or wrong, after returning, once again, to play Elite till the pain points become overwhelming. Which they inevitably do all to quickly. I am indeed one that still remembers the grand ideas/ideals from David Braben's kick-starter videos and still hope somewhere at Frontier those dreams still exists.

I am no game developer just someone that loves to experience them. It feels all to obvious, to me, that Elite is lacking in cohesive functional gameplay across it's disparate systems and there are many developers out there that have come up with clever ways to overcome Elite's hurdles. I still feel Elite could be amazing but time, effort, creativity and express communication are desperately needed.

Again these are just me feelings and thoughts and as I sat here this morning trying to decide if I really wanted to play more or move on once again I felt the need to write them down. We are all different and see things from different perspectives.

Not just you mate.

80s design principles unfortunately.

This video is from 2014 but is totally relevant (as are loads of others in this series)

Source: https://youtu.be/otAkP5VjIv8


Auction houses can work, provided they are implemented properly.

The main issue as I see it is the lack of "background" to each area of the bubble. e.g. You are in generic space station #1, but could be in anyone of the procedurally generated stations. There's no difference between govt types that is beyond a certain black marker yes/no tick box, nor differences you feel between empire/federation/alliance/independent space.

Hence the same 5 quest/mission types offered everywhere.

 

[Wildeheart]

Pretty sure they don't want you to grind, but it's hard to stop ppl https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369

Not sure adding a Pay2Win auction house would help you - except you'd get to know what most have worked out - the 'grind' is learning how to play - and once you've done it you are basically done. Unless you learned things along the way to keep you interested. Which wouldn't happen if you get to pay to get there ...

Pay2Win implies real world cash. There are many games with auction houses that do not involve real world currencies.

As an example -

Explorer's flying around scanning and selling their data could then turn their profits into materials without having to resort to combat or space trucking. Meanwhile the players in combat that scooped up scrap materials from their activities could have put their excess materials up for sales, in credits, to other players. No pay2win there. Just players playing and progressing in their chosen play style. With something like this miners mine, truckers haul, etc. Excess from any activity can traded for credits basically through a galaxy wide (possibly station limited) system.

Still as @ethelred points out it would need to be implemented properly. There are many design considerations such as balance that always must be taken into account.

 

[Florenus]

Elite is based on "grind". It all depends what you define as "grind" though.
I have absolutely nothing against ship engineering. I enjoy doing all kinds of things in Elite, so gathering materials is just a reason to do those various things. If you're not putting yourself in this state of mind that you must have something ASAP, it just provides you with goals for longer game, without actually stopping you from doing anything you want.
I've noticed that people who complain about the "grind" are those who prefer only one specific part of the game - like for example combat - and they are annoyed that they need to do something else in order to have better equipment for it. But what they want to do with that equipment? Fight. Meaning = repeatedly engage and shoot other ships. For me that's definition of "grind". But if you enjoy it, you don't notice it.

But I agree there could've been more ways to get what you need. Maybe there is no need to force people to mine, or drive SRVs in search for raw mats if they don't like that.

Explorer's flying around scanning and selling their data could then turn their profits into materials without having to resort to combat or space trucking. Meanwhile the players in combat that scooped up scrap materials from their activities could have put their excess materials up for sales, in credits, to other players.

That doesn't sound bad, actually.

 

[Old Duck]

I love Elite.

There is nothing that feels better for spaceflight / immersion especially in VR. Sadly the game really falls flat when you begin trying to actually play it. Quickly one can fall into the feeling you need to grind for whatever type of progress you want to achieve. Yes you can probably get by without grinding but then you may also find the things you really want to do limited in some, not insignificant, measure.

There really needs to be alternative ways to achieve things, like engineering materials, that don't encourage exit farming as a means to bypass unwanted, repetitive, engagement abusive "gameplay". Something as "simple" as an auction house system enables players of many types to find their way doing what they like whilst still having a means to get what they need for their own meaningful progress. I put simple in quotes since I do realise the idea may be simple but, surely, the implementation not so much.

These are just my thoughts, right or wrong, after returning, once again, to play Elite till the pain points become overwhelming. Which they inevitably do all to quickly. I am indeed one that still remembers the grand ideas/ideals from David Braben's kick-starter videos and still hope somewhere at Frontier those dreams still exists.

I am no game developer just someone that loves to experience them. It feels all to obvious, to me, that Elite is lacking in cohesive functional gameplay across it's disparate systems and there are many developers out there that have come up with clever ways to overcome Elite's hurdles. I still feel Elite could be amazing but time, effort, creativity and express communication are desperately needed.

Again these are just me feelings and thoughts and as I sat here this morning trying to decide if I really wanted to play more or move on once again I felt the need to write them down. We are all different and see things from different perspectives.

I was unloading my fleet carrier of some dusty cargo from ages ago, and that felt like a grind to me. At least I was able to alleviate a lot of it, thanks to an advanced docking computer and supercruise flight assist, but there was still a lot of "hand holding" involved. I found myself missing X4's system where I can step away from the controls and let my hired NPC pilot do all the flying. The actual mechanics of the "grind" remain (you need a cargo ship with limited cargo space to fly back and forth between point A and point B), but in X4 I feel like a proper commander rather than an ensign, with junior officers of my own to do the "tedious work" that I have since graduated from.

Now you might be thinking, "What fun is that?" Well, for someone like me (and we're all different), I still feel immersed in the game even though I'm not micromanaging the game. It's running on my screen, and I'm loosely paying attention to things in case I need to take the helm (say, a pirate attacks), but I can be reading all the latest Galnet articles or even just looking around (in X4 I'm usually managing tons of stuff as fleet captain and war strategist), or I might be doing dishes IRL but still feeling "in" the game world.

Anyway, this probably isn't what you're talking about, but I just wanted to bring it up. I remember when someone in a faction in Elite asked me, "Commander... What exactly are you a commander of, anyway?" Many years and billions of credits later, that question is still valid. I'm not a CMDR of anything, I'm Ensign Crusher, doing all the "little jobs" myself, including moving tritium around on my fleet carrier because nobody else can. I much prefer being a proper CMDR like I am in X4, with the ability to jump into my specialized Tie Fighter like Darth Vader because no NPC can fly as good as I can when it matters (ie - combat). In other words, I don't mind there being grind, but let someone else do it (NPC crew) - the captain of the ship should not be scrubbing the decks.

 

[777Driver]

I'm Ensign Crusher, doing all the "little jobs" myself, including moving tritium around on my fleet carrier because nobody else can. I much prefer being a proper CMDR like I am in X4, with the ability to jump into my specialized Tie Fighter like Darth Vader because no NPC can fly as good as I can when it matters (ie - combat). In other words, I don't mind there being grind, but let someone else do it (NPXC crew) - the captain of the ship should not be scrubbing the decks.

In fairness though, there are plenty of cmdrs willing to load/unload carriers. I too had that X-series mindstate, had to remind myself that this is multiplayer. I've also never had to refuel my carrier on trips between Colonia and the bubble, there are always passengers/crew onboard to do it, if not there is an automated refueling tool (that should have been inbuilt from the start)

 

[V'larr]

I was unloading my fleet carrier of some dusty cargo from ages ago, and that felt like a grind to me. At least I was able to alleviate a lot of it, thanks to an advanced docking computer and supercruise flight assist, but there was still a lot of "hand holding" involved. I found myself missing X4's system where I can step away from the controls and let my hired NPC pilot do all the flying. The actual mechanics of the "grind" remain (you need a cargo ship with limited cargo space to fly back and forth between point A and point B), but in X4 I feel like a proper commander rather than an ensign, with junior officers of my own to do the "tedious work" that I have since graduated from.

Now you might be thinking, "What fun is that?" Well, for someone like me (and we're all different), I still feel immersed in the game even though I'm not micromanaging the game. It's running on my screen, and I'm loosely paying attention to things in case I need to take the helm (say, a pirate attacks), but I can be reading all the latest Galnet articles or even just looking around (in X4 I'm usually managing tons of stuff as fleet captain and war strategist), or I might be doing dishes IRL but still feeling "in" the game world.

Anyway, this probably isn't what you're talking about, but I just wanted to bring it up. I remember when someone in a faction in Elite asked me, "Commander... What exactly are you a commander of, anyway?" Many years and billions of credits later, that question is still valid. I'm not a CMDR of anything, I'm Ensign Crusher, doing all the "little jobs" myself, including moving tritium around on my fleet carrier because nobody else can. I much prefer being a proper CMDR like I am in X4, with the ability to jump into my specialized Tie Fighter like Darth Vader because no NPC can fly as good as I can when it matters (ie - combat). In other words, I don't mind there being grind, but let someone else do it (NPC crew) - the captain of the ship should not be scrubbing the decks.

Now just imagine trying to improve your combat XP rank with XP gains being reduced to 1/10th due to the presence of your ship crews....

 

[oscarolim]

I agree with the sentiment. The grind can put someone off, specially when moving to a new account and having done all the grind before.
Anything should be purchasable on the game. Simply make it expensive enough so that there is a trade off between the convenience of buying it vs finding it out for free.
If we looked at Grade 5 mats costing 5mil each, and go down by 1mil per grade, it would be a good credit sink and wouldn't make it possible for a new player to fully engineer everything in the blink of an eye.

You could even make it that purchases were locked behind rank to force game progress before the ability to buy certain grades was made available.

 

[Old Duck]

Now just imagine trying to improve your combat XP rank with XP gains being reduced to 1/10th due to the presence of your ship crews....

These days I find personal rank in Elite to be meaningless. Right after I switched from PS4 to PC, noob gankers would try to kill my Mostly Harmless self not realizing that I'm top-of-the-bar Deadly on PS4. Now that was fun! Combat rank has always been about grind rather than skill (look at that, I'm on topic with the OP for once). Destroy a million NPC ships and you get a sticker. Whoopie. I much prefer walking around Tamriel and hearing random NPCs admire my recent feats - "You're the one who saved Town Y from Big Bandit Boss X. We love you!" The skill and champion points are nice as well

Though I do confess to feeling a bit of pride in my Elite exploration rank, because I feel I earned that - no R2R for me!

 

[Frankymole]

I love Elite.

There is nothing that feels better for spaceflight / immersion especially in VR. Sadly the game really falls flat when you begin trying to actually play it. Quickly one can fall into the feeling you need to grind for whatever type of progress you want to achieve. Yes you can probably get by without grinding but then you may also find the things you really want to do limited in some, not insignificant, measure.

"I want an 'I win' button".

There's no need to grind. You'll get the things you need as you play, so long as you don't get stuck in a rut. Which grinding definitely is.

 

[Wildeheart]

"I want an 'I win' button".

There's no need to grind. You'll get the things you need as you play, so long as you don't get stuck in a rut. Which grinding definitely is.

Interesting, but wrong, assumption about the post and myself as a player but it does expose a lack of understanding of one of the aspects that affects player retention in Elite Dangerous.

I, personally, have a lot of free time I can sink into Elite and I do enjoy a good grind too but I do have friends that have started and stopped after realising the immense wall that is progression in this game.

An example is a friend who only had enough time, due to real life, to play a few hours 2-3 times a week. This friend really loved the combat. When it came time that engineering was a direction they wanted to go they met a a wall. They realised they would have to do a lot of things in the game they really had no interest in. Still, my friend submitted and decided to do some of these things and was able to get their first upgrade.... If I recall right they got a first roll into grade 3 on their fsd.

My friend left after that because it was to much. They just wanted to fight with the ships and feel some meaningful progression. After doing the first upgrade and realising how much they would have to do in things they didn't have the time or interest for they quit.

There are other stories like the friend who didn't like combat but loved flying and exploring and others... There are some good ways that aren't "I win" buttons that still allow people to progress doing what they enjoy that are not in the game and it is no surprise it leads to a lot of problems with player retention. That all being said it is just my personal perspective and opinion. We all can see things differently and if we don't express how we see things nothing ever changes.

 

[Frankymole]

Did your friend not know about materials traders? He could easily get the mats needed for FSD rolls, by limpet-scooping the mats from ships destroyed in fights then trading them for those required for drive mods. No need to do activities one dislikes.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Interesting, but wrong, assumption about the post and myself as a player but it does expose a lack of understanding of one of the aspects that affects player retention in Elite Dangerous.

I, personally, have a lot of free time I can sink into Elite and I do enjoy a good grind too but I do have friends that have started and stopped after realising the immense wall that is progression in this game.

An example is a friend who only had enough time, due to real life, to play a few hours 2-3 times a week. This friend really loved the combat. When it came time that engineering was a direction they wanted to go they met a a wall. They realised they would have to do a lot of things in the game they really had no interest in. Still, my friend submitted and decided to do some of these things and was able to get their first upgrade.... If I recall right they got a first roll into grade 3 on their fsd.

My friend left after that because it was to much. They just wanted to fight with the ships and feel some meaningful progression. After doing the first upgrade and realising how much they would have to do in things they didn't have the time or interest for they quit.

There are other stories like the friend who didn't like combat but loved flying and exploring and others... There are some good ways that aren't "I win" buttons that still allow people to progress doing what they enjoy that are not in the game and it is no surprise it leads to a lot of problems with player retention. That all being said it is just my personal perspective and opinion. We all can see things differently and if we don't express how we see things nothing ever changes.

Spot on. A mate of mine tried EDO for the first time after a 5 year hiatus away from ED. He is very impressed with the game itself but the engineering stuff is just a no-go. With 2 hours a week it will quite literally take years to get anywhere. Just logging in, finding a CZ and doing one or two ground CZs takes all the time there is for the week, which means he'll spend 5-8 weeks just unlocking one engineer. Without me helping him cheese the system wherever possible there would be virtually nothing done on that front, and it is very demoralizing. Thankfully I can help out a fair bit with a FC and a bar with regards to EDO stuff, as far as ship stuff goes he is just SOL.

But I guess some sweat Grindy McGrindface can feel special this way or whatever.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Spot on. A mate of mine tried EDO for the first time after a 5 year hiatus away from ED. He is very impressed with the game itself but the engineering stuff is just a no-go. With 2 hours a week it will quite literally take years to get anywhere. Just logging in, finding a CZ and doing one or two ground CZs takes all the time there is for the week, which means he'll spend 5-8 weeks just unlocking one engineer. Without me helping him cheese the system wherever possible there would be virtually nothing done on that front, and it is very demoralizing. Thankfully I can help out a fair bit with a FC and a bar with regards to EDO stuff, as far as ship stuff goes he is just SOL.

But I guess some sweat Grindy McGrindface can feel special this way or whatever.

Someone with 10,000 hours will be along soon to tell you that "you can get everything just by playing" - ignoring the fact that 10k hours is 3-4 hours per day, every day, for 8 years

Edit.
Well, look at that

 

[Wildeheart]

Did your friend not know about materials traders? He could easily get the mats needed for FSD rolls, by limpet-scooping the mats from ships destroyed in fights then trading them for those required for drive mods. No need to do activities one dislikes.

Yes, but, not sure how familiar you are with the game, not all materials are available from combat. Not to mention if you are to use the material trader you cannot cross trade material types ie raw to encoded to manufactured further the exchange rates are steep especially if you consider rank 5. Now with that and seeing as they only could play a limited time each week where do you see the meaningful progression.

Maybe you and I can find some measure of progress in all that to be meaningful but I can assure you there are far more that have put this game aside because it is not so for them. The more people Elite pushes away the more likely the game is to slip into obscurity. For me that is something I would not like to come to pass anytime soon.

 

[Frankymole]

Yes, but, not sure how familiar you are with the game, not all materials are available from combat. Not to mention if you are to use the material trader you cannot cross trade material types ie raw to encoded to manufactured further the exchange rates are steep especially if you consider rank 5. Now with that and seeing as they only could play a limited time each week where do you see the meaningful progression.

Maybe you and I can find some measure of progress in all that to be meaningful but I can assure you there are far more that have put this game aside because it is not so for them. The more people Elite pushes away the more likely the game is to slip into obscurity. For me that would not be something I would like to come to pass anytime soon.

You get encoded from just having ships in your sights. Other types drop in combat and are easily traded. Obviously if you can only spend 2-3 hours gaming per week, you are going to make less progress than someone who can play many times more... but isn't that to be expected? No need to abandon a game simply because some people play more, and are commensurately fairly rewarded. That's how games work!

 

[Frankymole]

Someone with 10,000 hours will be along soon to tell you that "you can get everything just by playing" - ignoring the fact that 10k hours is 3-4 hours per day, every day, for 8 years

Edit.
Well, look at that

Again, "players who play more get more stuff" shocker. That's how all games work - would be very odd if you got more stuff, or even the same stuff, playing one tenth of the time... so I don't see what point you're trying to make. It's not like anyone makes zero progress or goes backwards.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

You get encoded from just having ships in your sights.

And installing a scanner that is otherwise useless.

 

[Wildeheart]

Again, "players who play more get more stuff" shocker. That's how all games work - would be very odd if you got more stuff, or even the same stuff, playing one tenth of the time... so I don't see what point you're trying to make. It's not like anyone makes zero progress or goes backwards.

If all you do is combat then yes you will make zero progress in engineering since you cannot get raw materials at all nor can you cross trade..... regardless of how many hours you sink into the game.

edited to add... This game sells itself as a sandbox game where you can play the way YOU want .. In everything we have bantered about there is nothing about how the game, in it's current state, truly allows that. Hence the post.