Torpedoes and hitpoint inflation - is there a solution?! (a.k.a. Make torpedoes great again)

[CMDR GTR2014]

Ok people we all know about the reverb cascade torps... and how usefull they are...
but the effect is the main reason.. not the torpedo... As of now Torpedoes are TRASH.

Mainly because the lack of TOTAL Damage in a hardpoint can have.
For example,

So we can see that by math. having a Torpedo is NOT a good idea.

---

If we go by speed only two ships cant escape a torpedo if they are running E rated.

The number falls to 1 if we get the A rated modules.

---

And last but not least. This is a example with ALL hull of all ships in game and how much the discrepancy over other weapons can be shown.

Here we can see that Torpedoes cant even kill a Eagle with military hull.

and damage to other ships are negligible. far from a 30k munition single or two shot hardpoint.

This is not even putting HRP.or shields into the equation.

---

PROPOSAL:

Ok, so how can we make them not a cheating weapon but a good weapon for a last case scenario?

Well First and mostly. the Reverb damage should NOT be changed. It should still do 45 Dmg to shields integrity .

But I think a MAJOR damage boost is necessary to be a Good weapon. (it's a last case scenario weapon anyway)

I'm thinking in changing the damage from 120 to 600 !

WHOA you might say... that's a BIG change... Well not really. even if you put resistance into account it would STILL do less TOTAL damage than any weapon in game (except seekers!)
But it would make it a very interesting last call. and having only ONE or TWO makes it the very weapon you want to shoot in the last possible case. and by being a weapon that cant be synthesized it cant be exploited.
There would be the new line for torps in the hull scenario.

And now you can have a Great self defense weapon. But since it's speed is not great, it would still need to evaded. for almost any ship... making it a great break contact weapon.

I could ask for an increase of speed, BUT I find it fair to have it at the speed it has. it's not an offensive weapon. it's a weapon to save your butt in a tight situation. Right now it's not... it's a gamble if you got lucky and hit drives or something you can win the battle but most times it's not what happens... I found that torpedoes have a sucess ratio of less than 30%. most of the time they do major damage to a external module (like a chaff) and fail totally of giving you a chance to escape or win the battle.

 

[bladebss]

Agreed. Thogh mabe up the cascade effect a little as its mostly useless if the enemy ship has mrp's

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Agreed. Thogh mabe up the cascade effect a little as its mostly useless if the enemy ship has mrp's

That's not the point of the thread as i said. Reverb should stay as is. otherwise it would be a forum crapstorm... we all know about it... but if a weapon is not good alone only the effect saves it... i dont see the point of even having a weapon to begin with.

For me Reverb is FINE. Stacking EVEN MORE resistance into a 5000k MJ shield is not good. this is a weakness to be exploited, if you put another 50% resistance to module damage at it... it's just as bad.

And that's how far i would go on the reverb talk.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'd love torpedoes to have an engineering angle, like focussed torpedoes allows for reverb, but you also have another blueprint for something like this:

[video=youtube;A2gxBV_ZZJM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2gxBV_ZZJM[/video]

That does not need a perfect strike to 'work'. You trade absolute damage (as in line with the 600 boost) for splash damage.

 

[RexKraemer]

This is great work and should be generally considered by FDEV for overall balance of ships.

Ships should be balanced at first without engineers.

Engineers should give some SMALL advantage in some parts, e.g . speed, but this could always come with some drawbacks like increased power supply. And there should be no RNG at all.

With that there could be tactical and strategical outfitting of ships for fighting. Other ship roles, e.g. T9 should have strong advantage on the defence, it should always be possible to escape a single aggressor.

Don't fix, buff or nerf a single weapon. Create a balancing system where all ship parts could be measured on.

 

[bladebss]

That's not the point of the thread as i said. Reverb should stay as is. otherwise it would be a forum crapstorm... we all know about it... but if a weapon is not good alone only the effect saves it... i dont see the point of even having a weapon to begin with.

For me Reverb is FINE. Stacking EVEN MORE resistance into a 5000k MJ shield is not good. this is a weakness to be exploited, if you put another 50% resistance to module damage at it... it's just as bad.

And that's how far i would go on the reverb talk.

I dont understand ? What has stcking more resistance on a mega shield got to do with it? And how is it a weakness or a bad thing for the user?

50% to module damage means you need twice as many torps making the effect useless. I dont want torps to be useless and i dont want there engeneered effects to be eather.

I supose its realy mega shields that are the problem in this case. I mean how many torps to the power plant can you take before you a sitting duck.. 2? Ish.

Its just you will never get the shields down to use them especially as most things run when that happens. And then they never catch up.

Im all up for them doing massive damage but is that to shields and hull or just hull?

 

[Tadeus72]

Yeah. I totally want those Suicewinders with torps at CGs to have 1200 alpha, lol.

DPS isn't the only important stat. Those weapons go on the smallest hardpoints in game and can be even fitted to a free newbie ship.

Also, Engineering is a thing, and you have to take it into consideration while balancing weapons. You aren't balancing for a theoretical game, but for the real one, and people have engineered weapons out there.

If you want to give them 600 alpha, change them to at least a large hardpoint.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Yeah. I totally want those Suicewinders with torps at CGs to have 1200 alpha, lol.

DPS isn't the only important stat. Those weapons go on the smallest hardpoints in game and can be even fitted to a free newbie ship.

Also, Engineering is a thing, and you have to take it into consideration while balancing weapons. You aren't balancing for a theoretical game, but for the real one, and people have engineered weapons out there.

If you want to give them 600 alpha, change them to at least a large hardpoint.

you mean 12000 alpha how?

Shields have 50% resistance to explosive rounds.. and 4 pips to shields go to2.5 the power of the shields... making a 250 MJ shield imune to Sideys.;

BTW you already said DPS is not an important stat yourself

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I dont understand ? What has stcking more resistance on a mega shield got to do with it? And how is it a weakness or a bad thing for the user?

50% to module damage means you need twice as many torps making the effect useless. I dont want torps to be useless and i dont want there engeneered effects to be eather.

I supose its realy mega shields that are the problem in this case. I mean how many torps to the power plant can you take before you a sitting duck.. 2? Ish.

Its just you will never get the shields down to use them especially as most things run when that happens. And then they never catch up.

Im all up for them doing massive damage but is that to shields and hull or just hull?

a ship commited to take down a big 3 shield with torps need at least 6 torps to make it so. (since in my idea the effect shouldnt change the amount of module dmg)

Which already makes it a very commitment situation. you will lose a LOT of weapons to take down a single shield already.

 

[bladebss]

That my point up the reverb damage a bit so it doesnt take 6 torps it take 3 or 4. Its still a comitment but its not silly.

And add the 600 base damage to the torps if we are balancing them to be a usefull weapon they may as well be balanced when engeneered as well as when not.

Thogh the penetrator torpedoes may need to be changed a bit as doing 600 damage to internal modules could be quite a big deal

 

[Cablefast]

I saw this idea before but can't remember where. Feel free to let me know if I'm ripping you off...

I think the best idea I've seen for torpedo rebalance is not more damage but instead FDEV should give them more ammo. The catch is they have a very high reload time, something like 1 to 2 minutes or maybe more. The point is that you only get a few shots in most fights depending on how long it drags out. Also, let them be synthesized since this wouldn't impact balance any more.

An engineering blueprint could increase reload speed in exchange for damage potential. Another one could do the opposite.

But I'm starting to get off topic here. That's the idea that I like best. I just hope FDEV does something because torpedoes are mostly wasted in their current form.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

That my point up the reverb damage a bit so it doesnt take 6 torps it take 3 or 4. Its still a comitment but its not silly.

And add the 600 base damage to the torps if we are balancing them to be a usefull weapon they may as well be balanced when engeneered as well as when not.

Thogh the penetrator torpedoes may need to be changed a bit as doing 600 damage to internal modules could be quite a big deal

But that the whole point. Firing a torpedo should make the other ship cripple if hit... making it a evade weapon... and making up for the low chance of hit. If you hit it gotta HURT A LOT!

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I saw this idea before but can't remember where. Feel free to let me know if I'm ripping you off...

I think the best idea I've seen for torpedo rebalance is not more damage but instead FDEV should give them more ammo. The catch is they have a very high reload time, something like 1 to 2 minutes or maybe more. The point is that you only get a few shots in most fights depending on how long it drags out. Also, let them be synthesized since this wouldn't impact balance any more.

An engineering blueprint could increase reload speed in exchange for damage potential. Another one could do the opposite.

But I'm starting to get off topic here. That's the idea that I like best. I just hope FDEV does something because torpedoes are mostly wasted in their current form.

Yes and no.. I can think of they in creasing by 4 (small 1+3) and medium (2+6) but i still think thats not a very interesting point.. since the torps are much like a high bet than anything... last resource scenario i mean...

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I'd love torpedoes to have an engineering angle, like focussed torpedoes allows for reverb, but you also have another blueprint for something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2gxBV_ZZJM

That does not need a perfect strike to 'work'. You trade absolute damage (as in line with the 600 boost) for splash damage.

Oh yeah.... this is more like the Airburst weapon used by planes ... would be cool as hell.

Trigger when less than 500M from target does 750M radius blast

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

when i look at opening post, and then on the torpedos attributes
-> there lingers the false assumption that the torpedo is designed to kill a ship by bringing its hull hitpoints down.

when you look at the numbers, you see that the idea is that the torpedo passes the hull and deals significant damage to internals,
something that was considered a death sentence in the past.
the numbers i am talking about:

Breach damage: 60
Min/Max breach chance: 100%

give it default -40% explosive resist, those 60 turn into 100 damage.

now check the hitpoints of most internals - and you see that every internal below 5B and 6D has less then 100 HP
together with the nice little addition of AoE explosions, thats a lot of destruction potential

The thing went out of proportions when we could suddenly modify resists.

so, whats the point of charts that are comparing torpedo damge vs. hull hitpoints? :S

 

[Ragnar Drake]

Yes and no.. I can think of they in creasing by 4 (small 1+3) and medium (2+6) but i still think thats not a very interesting point.. since the torps are much like a high bet than anything... last resource scenario i mean...

I agree that current torps are underwhelming, but it's important to think about ways they could be abused after being powered up. If you balance as a "last resort" deterrent weapon for a single ship carrying them, what happens if a wing of four uses them offensively?

I think "total damage from a hardpoint" is not all that useful as a balance metric. Should all lasers be nerfed to zero damage since their current total damage is infinite?

 

[ALGOMATIC]

No need in buffing those click to win weapons.
Weapons that require skill to use should be rewarded not something that is point and click.

 

[Jukelo]

when i look at opening post, and then on the torpedos attributes
-> there lingers the false assumption that the torpedo is designed to kill a ship by bringing its hull hitpoints down.

Torpedoes have ungodly armour penetration, which means they are specifically designed to suffer no damage penalty based on hull hardness. They are meant to allow a small ship to deal disproportionate amounts of damage to a bigger ship. Of course the problem is that small ships have much better options to take out bigger ships in the shape of targetting the PPlant with multicannons. This is a problem with the PP being a de-facto target, a problem which has been present since the start and which Frontier has tried with little luck to deal withh.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I agree that current torps are underwhelming, but it's important to think about ways they could be abused after being powered up. If you balance as a "last resort" deterrent weapon for a single ship carrying them, what happens if a wing of four uses them offensively?

I think "total damage from a hardpoint" is not all that useful as a balance metric. Should all lasers be nerfed to zero damage since their current total damage is infinite?

Still the same as a wing of four with MCs... they will just not have the same amount of DMG. PLUS they will likelly kill WAY less targets since torpedoes fly at 250M/s and almost every ship can escape them! (and using at point black is impossible since arming time is 3 secs)

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

when i look at opening post, and then on the torpedos attributes
-> there lingers the false assumption that the torpedo is designed to kill a ship by bringing its hull hitpoints down.

when you look at the numbers, you see that the idea is that the torpedo passes the hull and deals significant damage to internals,
something that was considered a death sentence in the past.
the numbers i am talking about:

Breach damage: 60
Min/Max breach chance: 100%

give it default -40% explosive resist, those 60 turn into 100 damage.

now check the hitpoints of most internals - and you see that every internal below 5B and 6D has less then 100 HP
together with the nice little addition of AoE explosions, thats a lot of destruction potential

The thing went out of proportions when we could suddenly modify resists.

so, whats the point of charts that are comparing torpedo damge vs. hull hitpoints? :S

Yes and no.

while Torpedoes are designed to take down internals. they hardly do. because in most cases they never deliver to the right part of the ship. i have tested even on static targets the chance of hitting a powerplant is lets say... 60% at most.

If the target is moving this goes WAY higher. the chance drops to at most 30%.

so the idea is to make it a insta kill modules (that it already is!) but have a decent splash damage and hull damage in the worst case scenario.

No need in buffing those click to win weapons.
Weapons that require skill to use should be rewarded not something that is point and click.

Torpedoes are far from click win weapon. they require good timing to be used (3 seconds armup, slow speed) the fact is that you have to fire at the right time at the right moment , much diferent from seekers.

Also it's a 1 or 2 hit chance, if you miss you have nothing left on the hardpoint!