Turret accuracy / targeting

[SHADEVARI]

Hi, I post this in 1.2 in the hope that some work went into turrets as well, the following was tested with 1.1, but maybe someone can test and confirm with 1.2.

Since I still think the Python was nerfed a little bit too much, either its speed and agility OR its shield strength, I tested the Python against some NPC ships of all sizes using 2x C3 burst turret (top) and 1x C3 beam turret (bottom) together with 2x C2 rail gun for alpha strike and A rated sensors. The rail guns performed just fine, the turrets however... :-(

After the first 3-4 seconds of constantly hitting the target spot on they start to wander around the target, not hitting it at all. I managed to keep the turrets on target and watched the turrets dancing around for around 30 seconds, I then moved the ship and switched to the bottom turret which instantly hit the target for about 3-4 seconds, after that just dancing around. When moving back to the top turrets I got some 3-4 seconds of damage again, after that, yeah, you guessed it, dancing... and no, the other ships weren't using chaff.

THe worst thing about this is that the smaller your target is the more damage is lost due to the turrets dancing around, making them essentially useless against small ships. Ironically small and fast ships are the only reason to equip turrets at all, but if turrets are only able to hit them for 3-4 seconds and are useless the remaining time while I still try and move the Python (or Anaconda or whatever is slow) around to get them back in my sight for another weapon, fixed or gimballed, there is no point for their existence, at all. The small ship happily eats away at the shields or hull during that time.

Fixing the turrets with the release of two more very powerful, fast and agile ships is now more important than ever for the slower ships, especially Anaconda and Python. I do not mention the Type X ships because the best strategy for them is to just not have weapons at all and simply run.


TL;DR
Turret targeting is completely broken and needs fixing ASAP since turrets are currently useless, especially against smaller ships, which is the only reason for their existence. This is especially important now with two more powerful and agile ships.

 

[Roycie]

Biggest problem i had (in a T9) with turrets, is getting them to fire on a wanted ship (target only pulling trigger doesn't work, you have to forward fire, hit, then target only), and getting them to stop when you want.
The latter being a problem when 100% heat starts costing money (ie causing module dmg)...

I know the T9 doesn't get into a lot of fights, but i was playing with beta ;-)

 

[SHADEVARI]

Getting them to fire is no issue if you have at least one fixed/gimballed weapon, which always is a good idea... or set them to forward fire, but they also start shooting once you get attacked, so for purely defensive play thats just fine. The real issue is the accuracy/targeting.

 

[soma]

Interesting. I currently run my Python with 2x C3 Pulse Turrets and 2x C2 Multicannon turrets (plus 1 fixed C3 Beam on the center hardpoint). Turrets are set to "My Target".

So far I am pretty happy with their stopping power. As long as I manage to keep the target slightly above my ship they melt smaller ships in seconds. Maybe its an issue with the Burst/Beam Turrets?

 

[SHADEVARI]

Did some more tests, this time with the Anaconda, 8D sensors, 1x C3 burst turret and 1x C3 pulse turret on the top.

Findings:
* There seems to be no difference between burst and pulse turrets in regards to targeting accuracy, they both follow the target with the same speed and everything looks to be synchronous except for the pew vs pewpewpew.
* There seems to be no difference whether TARGET ONLY or FIRE AT WILL is selected in regards to targeting accuracy (When using FIRE AT WILL the turrets stop firing when the target reaches 0% hull, with TARGET ONLY they keep firing until the target explodes. (bug?) With FIRE AT WILL multiple hostiles are fired at simultaneously, with all its pros and cons.)
* With 8D sensors on the Anaconda the accuracy rapidly goes down (more dancing) if the distance to target is > 500m (which isn't much, but interestingly most NPCs are stupid enough to stick around that distance if I just stop the Anaconda)
* The overall accuracy with 8D sensors on the Anaconda appears to be better (less dancing, more hits) than on the Python with 6A sensors.

Todo:
* test accuracy / distance with 8A sensors on Anaconda
* do some more tests with Python (pulse + burst, moving fast vs slowly vs full stop)

Questions:
* Does the overall accuracy of turrets increase with sensor class more than with sensor rating, effectively making turrets better for huge ships due to the sensor size?
* Is the accuracy tied to the speed you are moving with as well as your turns since the turrets constantly have to track the targets and counter any movements the target is doing as well as your own ship? In this case a faster ship (Python is faster than Anaconda) would effectively reduce turret accuracy and explain why I had more "luck" with the Anaconda.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

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[Eagle Eye]

So basically forget turret on anything smaller than Anaconda. I guess that FdL with gimballed 4C Cannon is no go as even with 8D sensor on Anaconda it also has wandering problem...

 

[Hiten Bongz]

Wow, good info and testing guys.

I have been playing around with turrets on my Python, and I must say I have to agree with nearly all of you guys observations!

I will add, however, that Class 2 Medium Pulse Laser Turrets are SO broken that after a few minutes of combat they have a very high chance to completely STOP working. In order to un-stick them (until next glitch) I have to log out of the game entirely.

Turrets need serious attention with these new ships coming out, and C2 Pulse Turrets specifically need some love because they are broken as hell.

 

[soma]

Thanks for the excellent description guys! If I understood that correctly, when the target goes out of the firing arc and the turrets stop firing, then the decay mechanic starts over and turrets are accurate again, right?

Maybe thats the reason why I dont notice the problem on my Python. I usually dont manage to keep the turrets on target for more than 10 seconds without having to maneuver a bit. I will try that out later today.

 

[soma]

..come to think of it..that might contribute to the reason why NPC Python/Anacondas appear realtively toothless in fights. They maneuver really well. Probably well enough to keep their target in the firing range of their turrets all the time. And that degrades their damage output in drawn out fights.

 

[Caspar]

I'm surprised. I used a couple of side mounted medium multicannon turrets in 1.2 and found that generally in the flow of combat they worked quite well. They were accurate for long enough to be effective yet not over powered.

 

[soma]

I'm surprised. I used a couple of side mounted medium multicannon turrets in 1.2 and found that generally in the flow of combat they worked quite well. They were accurate for long enough to be effective yet not over powered.

Yes, I said the same in a post above. Python with 4 turrets. I never noticed the turrets had a problem and am pretty happy with their performance. But maybe people with better piloting skills than myself notice the performance decay because they manage to keep their turrets continuously pointed at their targets.

 

[Flavourless]

Several threads on this.
The turrets on my Anaconda are useless.
In fire-at-will they engage clean targets and get you a handy bounty.
In forward-fire they just have less effeciency than a fixed or gimballed version.
In target-only they are pretty good at aiming for the general area around the target, but very poor at locking on.

I have 8A sensors, and find that the D3 beam turret (value 19MCr per unit) is not perceivably better than the F3 pulse turret (costing 400KCr), it just uses much more power.

Overall the turret coding is woeful.

 

[Viajero]

I dont know man, I dont have much experience using turrets myself but I have had a huge share of CMDRS with Large size laser turrets kitted into their Clippers as of late, and I can tell you, these not only do not seem to miss much but they are a killer. Cost is 20 mill though, nevertheless me thinks they need tone down actually.

 

[Flavourless]

...these not only do not seem to miss much...

Maybe you should swap your current ship for a barn door. Mine can't even hit one of those

Seriously though, is there anything that is supposed to affect turret lock accuracy apart from sensor class/rating? Maybe I am missing something here.

 

[SHADEVARI]

So basically forget turret on anything smaller than Anaconda. I guess that FdL with gimballed 4C Cannon is no go as even with 8D sensor on Anaconda it also has wandering problem...

AFAIK the problem was that it was slow to move, which would make sense for a huge 16T cannon.

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In fire-at-will they engage clean targets and get you a handy bounty.

No, they do not attack CLEAN targets, they just do not stop firing if a CLEAN ship flies into your line of fire, making it hostile and now the turrets start attacking it. Happened to me as well during testing, had to jump to another system to clear my wanted status. ;-)

 

[Deleted member 38366]

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[GeneralIdea1964]

Maybe you should swap your current ship for a barn door. Mine can't even hit one of those

Seriously though, is there anything that is supposed to affect turret lock accuracy apart from sensor class/rating? Maybe I am missing something here.

There is the chaff dispenser hard-point, that makes turret/gimballed weapons loose lock and wander for a short while. If your opponent fires of a chaff round you have to wait till the effects wear off before the targeting works again. In the meantime, the aim wanders about quite a lot.

 

[Im_Lost]

Turrets have been broken all along, at least when they are on player ships (when NPCs use them they are deadly and never miss). Last time I tried them I couldn't even get them to fire in "target only" mode. That or they just start firing at stuff you don't want them to.

I had them on my trader for a bit but gave up and switched to prox mines instead. The AI flies right in to them while chasing you

 

[soma]

Thanks for the excellent description guys! If I understood that correctly, when the target goes out of the firing arc and the turrets stop firing, then the decay mechanic starts over and turrets are accurate again, right?

Maybe thats the reason why I dont notice the problem on my Python. I usually dont manage to keep the turrets on target for more than 10 seconds without having to maneuver a bit. I will try that out later today.

Ok I just tested it with my loadout (Python 2xC3 Pulse Turret, 2xC2 Multicannon Turret, 1x C3 fixed Beam). The turrets behave exactly as FalconFly describes. The first few seconds of fire are pretty accurate (at least with the Pulse Turrets), then the accuracy degrades to complete uselessness. When I change targets or move the target out of the firing arc then the accuracy resets and the turrets again work perfectly fine for a few seconds.

The reason I did not notice it until now is because I often clumsily maneuver the enemy ship out of the turrets firing arc (mostly when I try to line up shots with the fixed beam)...