Powerplay Undermining difficulty increased after 2.1

[CMDR John Casey]

Two reasons:
- Being wanted is now a lot more problematic than before (because security forces actually show up)
- Powerplay NPCs are better equipped than the standard ones

This is not a complaint. I just want to point out that the overall balance may change because of this.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Its great, isn't it? Violence actually has consequences

 

[Olivia Vespera]

But if undermining is trickier, it may be harder for operatives to effect turmoil.

 

[Arkadi]

I assume opposing an expansion from a power with trade ethos always works with undermining, right? Is the balance still preserved so that the trade ethos power wont have an upper hand above the combat ethos power when it comes to expansion and oppositon of expansion?

In this case, to say it plain, does Mahon also face more frequent and potent NPC interdiction when expanding? Becouse in my view this would be only just.

However I am not really shure about all mechanics regarding powerplay ethos in the different powers. So please tell me how it really works for "haulage" powers.

 

[CMDR John Casey]

I assume opposing an expansion from a power with trade ethos always works with undermining, right? Is the balance still preserved so that the trade ethos power wont have an upper hand above the combat ethos power when it comes to expansion and oppositon of expansion?

In this case, to say it plain, does Mahon also face more frequent and potent NPC interdiction when expanding? Becouse in my view this would be only just.

However I am not really shure about all mechanics regarding powerplay ethos in the different powers. So please tell me how it really works for "haulage" powers.

With 2.1 and the new cops, I think that the powers that have a combat ethos for expansion will be penalised, because one can oppose them "legally" in their crime sweeps/violent protests/military strikes. Otherwise, opposing powers with trade ethos requires to become wanted with all the consequences. I've see little complaints from fortifiers so I expect that Powerplay commodity trading is not a lot more dangerous than before.

On the other hand, with a glimpse at the PP map it's clear that any un-organized undermining activity has ceased.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's actually a great point. If you oppose say Mahon in the system and then want to expand it yourself, you will be wanted in that system.

An interesting dilemma, as it does indeed favour non combat expansions.

 

[Goose4291]

Also (not so much a problem for the Independents and Alliance players), formerly allied powers (like say ALD/Aisling/Patreus and Torval) NPC's are now attacking players who are pledged to one of their allied comrades.

 

[Schlack]

I assume opposing an expansion from a power with trade ethos always works with undermining, right? Is the balance still preserved so that the trade ethos power wont have an upper hand above the combat ethos power when it comes to expansion and oppositon of expansion?

In this case, to say it plain, does Mahon also face more frequent and potent NPC interdiction when expanding? Becouse in my view this would be only just.

However I am not really shure about all mechanics regarding powerplay ethos in the different powers. So please tell me how it really works for "haulage" powers.

Expansion mechanics were always weighted towards combat ethos powers. It was far easier to pew pew your way to victory than to trade your way. If nothing else, combat ethos power players ended up with 50 million for their troubles, while trading ethos powers usually incurred significant losses, that the 50M only mitigated. This is the disadvantage that trading powers have had to cope with since PP launched.

Trading powers have had to rely on their dedicated playerbase. Combat powers had the huge benefit of the casual players taking a good chunk of the workload (far from all as a lot of merit grinding is wasted in the overall scheme of things). The AI updates (or more accurately the railbeam bug(!?!) two shotting ships) may drive the filthy casuals away. Its no longer easy money and more dangerous to sandbank merits for a snipe.

This latest update would seem to erode that advantage, leveling the playing field somewhat in terms of mechanics. It will be very interesting to see the results over the next few weeks.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Expansion mechanics were always weighted towards combat ethos powers. It was far easier to pew pew your way to victory than to trade your way. If nothing else, combat ethos power players ended up with 50 million for their troubles, while trading ethos powers usually incurred significant losses, that the 50M only mitigated. This is the disadvantage that trading powers have had to cope with since PP launched.

Trading powers have had to rely on their dedicated playerbase. Combat powers had the huge benefit of the casual players taking a good chunk of the workload (far from all as a lot of merit grinding is wasted in the overall scheme of things). The AI updates (or more accurately the railbeam bug(!?!) two shotting ships) may drive the filthy casuals away. Its no longer easy money and more dangerous to sandbank merits for a snipe.

This latest update would seem to erode that advantage, leveling the playing field somewhat in terms of mechanics. It will be very interesting to see the results over the next few weeks.

The problem is a bit more than that though, take this example:

Antal and Mahon want system X

Antal must expand using combat, Mahon counters with legal combat

Mahon successfully opposes, Mahon commanders go home with no criminal record in system X and can return freely

Mahon wants system X

Antal players must oppose illegally and incur large bounties

Antal successfully opposes, Antal commanders are then wanted in that system they want to expand. This blocks them from stations, and they are harassed by NPCs and security

Each time the cycle happens, more and more of Utopian pilots are locked out, and this will affect fortification as well.

 

[Apos]

The problem is a bit more than that though, take this example:

Antal and Mahon want system X

Antal must expand using combat, Mahon counters with legal combat

Mahon successfully opposes, Mahon commanders go home with no criminal record in system X and can return freely

Mahon wants system X

Antal players must oppose illegally and incur large bounties

Antal successfully opposes, Antal commanders are then wanted in that system they want to expand. This blocks them from stations, and they are harassed by NPCs and security

Each time the cycle happens, more and more of Utopian pilots are locked out, and this will affect fortification as well.

That's a valid concern, but it's not something that started happening now. The patch changed security response, not bounties.

Plus, you don't get locked out of all the stations, just the ones the ruling faction has.

 

[Rubbernuke]

But it will be a problem: it means large stations can be blocked, forcing smaller ships to be used for expansion and fortification.

And security response will be a major problem too; I had a 200 credit bounty when going to Farseer, and I was pursued endlessly by elite FAS and FdLs. That was for 6 minutes, a six day bounty will cripple some efforts.

In essence it means Mahon style powers have the security forces working for them in that system along with power NPCs as well as bounty hunters. The opposite is not true for Utopian forces as Mahons (eg) commanders are 'clean'.

You are right though, this has always been the case. Its just now the twitchy cops have amplified the problem to a potentially game breaking level.

 

[fergal]

I'm more concerned with Antal and Delaine not even being allowed to try to win expansions anymore, and the damage it has done to their player base.

This cycle is more than half over, maybe it will get fixed when there are no more pledged players to care?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'm more concerned with Antal and Delaine not even being allowed to try to win expansions anymore, and the damage it has done to their player base.

This cycle is more than half over, maybe it will get fixed when there are no more pledged players to care?

I suppose that is one way to sort out the 'rise to power' games

It is a grave concern that such crippling bugs came out of nowhere. Going from several reddits a number of players have shelved PP and the game itself while this is sorted out, leaving the whole thing hanging.

But since we are the smallest powers, who cares?

 

[fergal]

I suppose that is one way to sort out the 'rise to power' games

It is a grave concern that such crippling bugs came out of nowhere. Going from several reddits a number of players have shelved PP and the game itself while this is sorted out, leaving the whole thing hanging.

But since we are the smallest powers, who cares?

Most of our passive bonuses, which were half working, have also stopped. Narcotics and Battle Weapons have been removed from most of our Control Systems.

To answer the OP, things certainly have changed.

I'm Elite in combat (which means I've grinded away at our expansions, it hardly is an indication of skill) and I have very large bounties.

When I arrived at systems, I would be interdicted by an Elite bounty hunter (even the eagles are a pain).
If I interdicted a PP ship to undermine, the Elite bounty hunter would instantly drop in and open fire on me.

Fighting these ships in my Imperial Courier was the most fun I've had in elite dangerous since PP started.
The fighting with Elite NPCs is very similar to the good 1v1 PvP fights I used to have in my Viper, before PP brought nothing but 4v1 seal clubbing (I've been on the 4 end more than the 1 and both are as pointless as each other)

But, from a power play perspective, I feel horribly disadvantaged, to now have to deal with elite bounty hunters while undermining/expanding, while the vast majority of players are not experiencing this.

So I'm split, earning merits was much harder for me, but the game is more fun.

The bounty hunters have left me alone now, because they finally killed me.
But if I go undermining, they will return.

Again, I don't mind them trying to kill me again, but it will drastically cut into my undermining merits.

The OP mentioned the increased security response (40 seconds in high security is what I've been seeing) which has basically stopped undermining this week, Delaine hasn't even got 1 system 100% undermining at this point in time.

Here's the laziest way to fix a decrease in undermining, increase the amount of goods needed to fortify.
Increase fortification triggers by 5x to 10x and that will re-balance it.

 

[Apos]

The opposite is not true for Utopian forces as Mahons (eg) commanders are 'clean'.

To be fair, there is no such thing as clean in any power.

Your fortifiers are as clean as Mahon's if they only fortify.
Your players hauling preps, same thing.

But anyone who will engage in combat will eventually get to have their hands dirty. A time will come when a trading power will have to oppose another trading power.

And not everything was fine before anyway, with combat being impossible to oppose for everyone except ALD/Hudson.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Increase fortification triggers by 5x to 10x and that will re-balance it.

This would make things even more dysfunctional? It would cut off the ability for generating CC via fortification, make fortification even more of a chore, and lead to powers only fortifying a few systems. Most powers would be in turmoil repeatedly unable to balance economies.

I think the whole PP setup is just beyond saving as it is, there is no quick fixes as the problems are deep and too complex.

 

[fergal]

This would make things even more dysfunctional? It would cut off the ability for generating CC via fortification, make fortification even more of a chore, and lead to powers only fortifying a few systems. Most powers would be in turmoil repeatedly unable to balance economies.

I think the whole PP setup is just beyond saving as it is, there is no quick fixes as the problems are deep and too complex.

I agree that fortification is already more of a chore than an enjoyable game, unless it saves your power from turmoil at the last moment

I said the laziest way to fix it is increasing fortification, lets see if thats the solution thats offered.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I agree that fortification is already more of a chore than an enjoyable game, unless it saves your power from turmoil at the last moment

I said the laziest way to fix it is increasing fortification, lets see if thats the solution thats offered.

It will be interesting seeing what solutions are offered, this with disabling fast forwarding prep, collapse- quite an unpleasant cocktail :/

 

[Bigglesof206]

It really doesn't look like FD gave much thought to the knock on effects, does it? I don't really see the point of Sandro doing that twitch stream about plans to improve PP when the next big patch shows they actually gave it another damn good ignoring instead. For me it is now a way to keep earning a weekly 50m, via fort, which I aim at useful systems (follow the reddit etc) ... and getting to keep maybe 30M of it as the week ends. I have almost zero interest in what is happening on the map, not that a great deal actually does happen there anyway, and I read the strategy sticky etc for interest rather than any real belief that we can do anything actually noticeable as a power.

PP needs a damn good rework, it needs to be something you really feel accomplishes something, and a year is plenty long enough to neglect it. Problem is, I can't see any work going into PP for at least a year....FD want new things in the game, not to fix old stuff.

Dave

 

[Martin Schou]

Step one: Fix the most major bug - the inability for Antal and Delaine to generate expansion merits in their combat zones. This is beyond ludicrous, especially given that the collapse mechanic is now seemingly in full effect.

Step two: Fix the second worst bug (that I know of) - PowerPlay ships should not be attacking players from the same super power (possibly with the exception of the independents). This is almost as bad as the first one, but at least this one can't cause a power to collapse.

Step three: Not sure there is a step three. Well, other than fixing the multitude of bugs that are still in PowerPlay. These are the only two that I can think of that were introduced with 1.6/2.1.

As for undermining now being more dangerous - well ... good. Seriously - underminers have been running around, murdering god knows how many innocent people every month, and there's hardly been a slap on the wrist for the culprits. Not that I'm innocent of it myself, but it's about time that there are consequences to the murdering. Sadly it's still far less expensive to be a murderer than a smuggler. You smuggle 1 ton of narcotics into a system and you're likely to face a larger financial penalty than if you kill someone. It's quite frankly insane.