Unfilled Vehicle Niche: High-end Small Ships

[DemiserofD]

One thing the game really lacks is a truly high-end Small ship. The most expensive small ship is the Vulture, but at about 5m, that's not exactly very impressive.

Why not add some much more expensive small ships, to really fill that niche? They wouldn't be as powerful as the equivalent-price medium or large ships, but with a significantly higher price, they could have other advantages that make them worth using - or at least just fun!

Here's a few examples.

Imperial Caravel
Cost: 120,000,000
Hardpoints: 1 Huge, 2 small.
Utility Slots: 6
Details: Very fast, very drifty, powerful shields but paper armor. Prone to overheating.

Federal Skirmish Ship
Cost: 105,000,000
Hardpoints: 4 small, 3 medium
Multicrew Seats: 1
Utility Slots: 6
Details: Slower, heavier armor, very agile. Two of the medium hardpoints are located on the back of the ship, POINTING backwards, and cannot shoot forwards. But great for turrets or mine launchers!

Lakon Type-❒
Cost: 97,500,000
Hardpoints: 1 large, 2 medium, 1 small
Utility Slots: 8
Fighter Bay
Details: Slow, with extremely powerful lateral and vertical thrusters. Can move faster sideways than forwards. Can only barely rig a fighter bay, which launches a fighter nearly as large as it is. Basically a flying cube.

Some additional, more expensive small ships could be a lot of fun! Maybe throw the Mamba Light in there, too. There are all sorts of possibilities!

 

[Darrack]

er hello

O7

 

[Athlon-uk]

Fully Engineered small ships then. They're mega fun.

 

[metatheurgist]

Vulture was initially priced at 20M. Players said it wasn't worth it, they were wrong. Just goes to show you shouldn't listen to players.

Also, the initial hull cost of a ship isn't representative of it's real cost.

 

[DemiserofD]

er hello

O7

Imperial Eagle is a great ship, but it's definitely not what I think of as 'high-end'!

Fully Engineered small ships then. They're mega fun.

For sure, but engineering is equal across all ships, so unfortunately, while you can do lower-level stuff just fine, when it comes to higher-difficulty scenarios, you just won't be competitive. You can still do it! Just not as well. And I'm not trying to suggest ships that are outright BETTER, just ones that are more competitive, in exchange for a hefty pricetag!

Vulture was initially priced at 20M. Players said it wasn't worth it, they were wrong. Just goes to show you shouldn't listen to players.

Also, the initial hull cost of a ship isn't representative of it's real cost.

Moreso now than before, tbh. Back in the beginning an expensive ship could be cheaper than a cheap ship with good gear. But since Engineering costs the same amount no matter what, a cheaper ship is now relatively closer to the value of an expensive ship than ever before!

I'm just saying, if you want new ships, expensive small ships are a potential niche that hasn't yet been filled! It could offer some great new stuff, and people are always looking for new ships!

 

[metatheurgist]

I think we need small ship gameplay more than more small ships.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

A huge hardpoint on a small ship would certainly be hilarious. It's not just the gun, it's the required distributor and power plant too. The whole ship would basically be those three parts.

Personally though I want more large ships. There are 14 smalls, 15 mediums and only 9 larges. I want the Panther (obviously), a large delicate explorer (and an Anaconda hull fix) and a large combat ship with no fighter bay but more main firepower than the Corvette.

 

[Screemonster]

I want a ship with like eight small hardpoints, a wimpy distributor, and a stupidly-low boost cost that exists purely to be a missileboat

 

[Shir]

If anything, a small ship like the Cobra MK IV would be great, a small multipurpose ship. But in game now, the only reasons to use small ships are if you like the style, and if you like the flying model. There isn't a single mission type or gameplay role where they are better than mediums or big ones. So that's what is really needed, the small ship gameplay part.

And about the Vulture, it IS an impressive ship. A small fighter that with practice can kill anything, and provides a combination of fighter flying experience and firepower that no other ship in the game does.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

There isn't a single mission type or gameplay role where they are better than mediums or big ones.

Less true in Odyssey where they can land at all settlements and on a much wider range of surface terrain.

 

[Factabulous]

There isn't a single mission type or gameplay role where they are better than mediums or big ones

• Exobiology - small ships find it far easier to land near to anything when the terrain is rough
• Guardian Sites - small ships find it easy to find landing zones and often larger ships will struggle
• Horizons missions to scan / attack surface bases - small ships easily get to to scan the data points and can get in fast to take out power

Do you even play?

 

[Darrack]

If anything, a small ship like the Cobra MK IV would be great, a small multipurpose ship. But in game now, the only reasons to use small ships are if you like the style, and if you like the flying model. There isn't a single mission type or gameplay role where they are better than mediums or big ones. So that's what is really needed, the small ship gameplay part.

And about the Vulture, it IS an impressive ship. A small fighter that with practice can kill anything, and provides a combination of fighter flying experience and firepower that no other ship in the game does.

The gameplay part is what you make it, i always do stealth missions/ assassinations in my Viper Mk4 it just feels right.
Ive even taken a Viper to Beagle.
But even though i have plenty of ships that do things way better there is nothing that comes close to flying my Imp Eagle.

As Factabulous says small ships are a must for (most) guardian sites and hard to reach Exo.

O7

 

[sgurr]

Fully Engineered small ships then. They're mega fun.

Exactly
and hull cost is a poor measure of a ship's worth.

Your examples sound like what you're apparently saying you don't want, a small ship that can directly compete with mediums

Anyway, small ships are great for courier and black box missions, some assassination types, exploration, mat gathering, ody foot missions etc.
I usually only fly mediums for combat where a small just can't compete, or for raw jump range.

No one's mentioned the Courier, or DBS, or Viper IV, they can all do things mediums can't.

 

[sgurr]

Just to add, I'm all for new ships btw, but there are a number little used ships already in game which with a bit of tinkering could be a lot more useful.

 

[Fake Newts]

Rather than add new ships I'd prefer it if Fdev found a way to balance the ecosystem such that small ships just remained relevant. Having a purely linear power progression based on credits is short-sighted in a live-service game and the fact that people pretty much only use small ships for s**ts and giggles once they can afford the meta mediums is a shame. I don't think the blunt "small pads only" gate really counts, because that's not a mechanic or gameplay addition.

This could be achieved by rethinking the health spectrum and distributor scaling in general; small ships currently can't carry enough firepower to even kill other G5d small ships in a reasonable timeframe, let alone be more than a meme in fights with mediums. Reverb mining was arguably a small ship niche but the arming timer they added to them really threw a spanner in the works.

Another method would be to release some new weapons and e-war utilities that could only be used on small ships (make up some handwavium as to why if necessary) and have those be sold at a premium, in the same way we have enhanced drives, for example.

Another way to maintain their relevance could be to add content that is only accessible to, or achieved much more effectively in, small ships, like tunnel runs - assets for Descent-like gameplay already exist in game, but don't really serve any purpose.

I would prefer a combination of these solutions. People have differing opinions on Elite's linear 'moar credits = moar power' progression but I would much rather see ships divided into distinct roles than price brackets. In a CRPG both a wizard and a rogue remain relevant throughout, in different circumstances.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Rather than add new ships I'd prefer it if Fdev found a way to balance the ecosystem such that small ships just remained relevant. Having a purely linear power progression based on credits is short-sighted in a live-service game and the fact that people pretty much only use small ships for s**ts and giggles once they can afford the meta mediums is a shame. I don't think the blunt "small pads only" gate really counts, because that's not a mechanic or gameplay addition.

This could be achieved by rethinking the health spectrum and distributor scaling in general; small ships currently can't carry enough firepower to even kill other G5d small ships in a reasonable timeframe, let alone be more than a meme in fights with mediums. Reverb mining was arguably a small ship niche but the arming timer they added to them really threw a spanner in the works.

Another method would be to release some new weapons and e-war utilities that could only be used on small ships (make up some handwavium as to why if necessary) and have those be sold at a premium, in the same way we have enhanced drives, for example.

Another way to maintain their relevance could be to add content that is only accessible to, or achieved much more effectively in, small ships, like tunnel runs - assets for Descent-like gameplay already exist in game, but don't really serve any purpose.

I would prefer a combination of these solutions. People have differing opinions on Elite's linear 'moar credits = moar power' progression but I would much rather see ships divided into distinct roles than price brackets. In a CRPG both a wizard and a rogue remain relevant throughout, in different circumstances.

I think small ships can only become like you ask if stealth, smuggling and things like sensors get a large overhaul- and right now I can sense if that happened the squad would hate it.

FD could drastically change the 'conspicuousness factor' all ships apparently have, with small ships being made much less conspicuous while mediums, large (especially flashy ships like FDLs and Mambas or mil spec ships like Corvettes or Cutters) made to be incredibly 'sticky outy'.

Rework SC agility- make small ships hugely agile in SC, while mediums and large ships much harder (above what we have now- exceptions being the really bad ones like the T-9). At the same time make SC obstacles that require this agility (such as avoiding zones patrolled by sec forces).

Sensors- increase the stealthiness of small ships, and make higher sensor grades required to detect smaller objects and ships. So a DBS with limpets could walk up to a T-9 pilot with D rated sensors and never see him coming, while A grade sensors would pick them out better (this is the squads 'butbutbutgriefers part). Also make small ships harder to KWS scan (or generic scan)- which might give you an edge.

The same could be said for station radars on surfaces- the smaller the ship the closer you can get- however ramp this up so small ships can be nearly on top of a base while medium and large ships are detected much further out.

I would loved to have seen small ships have much lower repair costs too relative to med and large ships, but that ones sailed sadly in the economy of the game.

 

[Fake Newts]

I would loved to have seen small ships have much lower repair costs too relative to med and large ships, but that ones sailed sadly in the economy of the game

Yeah it certainly seems Fdev's ship ecosystem grew (and to an extent continues to grow) in the shadow of the long-dead idea of Significant Running Costs, something which could've probably been pretty interesting if it had had a ton more thought and work put into it.

Currently you can count the total number of extrinsic reasons to use cheaper ships on a single hand, most of it being intrinsic 'cause I like the challenge/vibe' type thing... Not that there's anything wrong with intrinsic motivation per se, but there's easily a lot of room for actual, y'know, mechanical interest. Oh well.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yeah it certainly seems Fdev's ship ecosystem grew (and to an extent continues to grow) in the shadow of the long-dead idea of Significant Running Costs, something which could've probably been pretty interesting if it had had a ton more thought and work put into it.

Currently you can count the total number of extrinsic reasons to use cheaper ships on a single hand, most of it being intrinsic 'cause I like the challenge/vibe' type thing... Not that there's anything wrong with intrinsic motivation per se, but there's easily a lot of room for actual, y'know, mechanical interest. Oh well.

I think this is the most irritating aspect to it, in that nothing really drives small ship use. Another way might have been (also removing / toning back the ultra modular ship lore) each ship having its spare parts given a ubiquity factor- small ships would be near universally able to be repaired (such as Sidewinders / Eagles), Imp / Fed / Alliance ships repairable in s.power space, and that high end ships like the FDL and Mamba require high tech systems. In this way small ships would be logistically easier to run maybe.

 

[CMDR Rabbit]

I think small ships can only become like you ask if stealth, smuggling and things like sensors get a large overhaul- and right now I can sense if that happened the squad would hate it.

FD could drastically change the 'conspicuousness factor' all ships apparently have, with small ships being made much less conspicuous while mediums, large (especially flashy ships like FDLs and Mambas or mil spec ships like Corvettes or Cutters) made to be incredibly 'sticky outy'.

Rework SC agility- make small ships hugely agile in SC, while mediums and large ships much harder (above what we have now- exceptions being the really bad ones like the T-9). At the same time make SC obstacles that require this agility (such as avoiding zones patrolled by sec forces).

Sensors- increase the stealthiness of small ships, and make higher sensor grades required to detect smaller objects and ships. So a DBS with limpets could walk up to a T-9 pilot with D rated sensors and never see him coming, while A grade sensors would pick them out better (this is the squads 'butbutbutgriefers part). Also make small ships harder to KWS scan (or generic scan)- which might give you an edge.

The same could be said for station radars on surfaces- the smaller the ship the closer you can get- however ramp this up so small ships can be nearly on top of a base while medium and large ships are detected much further out.

I would loved to have seen small ships have much lower repair costs too relative to med and large ships, but that ones sailed sadly in the economy of the game.

As a small ship pilot, I like these ideas!

 

[CMDR Rabbit]

Yeah it certainly seems Fdev's ship ecosystem grew (and to an extent continues to grow) in the shadow of the long-dead idea of Significant Running Costs, something which could've probably been pretty interesting if it had had a ton more thought and work put into it.

Currently you can count the total number of extrinsic reasons to use cheaper ships on a single hand, most of it being intrinsic 'cause I like the challenge/vibe' type thing... Not that there's anything wrong with intrinsic motivation per se, but there's easily a lot of room for actual, y'know, mechanical interest. Oh well.

I cant say I have ideas across all the various small ships but giving them niche roles, unique to ship type built in abilities (make the cable/winch on the front of a sidey work for mat scooping)

Another possibility is to scale engineering costs to hull or module size. Mods on a small ship cost less?