Vertical and Horizontal lines have started "shimmering"

Jon474

Banned
Just lately I have started to see my vertical and horizontal edges/lines "shimmer" or flash, or...I don't know how else to describe it. It is especially noticeable when approaching Outposts as the clean lines of of the space station are very hard to define, they "move" about so much. I also see it when docked. The edges of the walls and roof of the terminal building will shimmer.

Any clues as to what this might be? Is it my graphics settings? What is AA all about?...don't say it!

Thanks in advance

Fly happy

Jon
 
I encountered that years ago when I had a dud graphics card. It worked for a few months fine then I started seeing these graphical artifacts and updating drivers and such did not fix them. I thought it might have been the monitor so I plugged the monitor into another PC and no shimmering/flashing lines appeared.

Turns out that it was the graphics card and once I replaced it, I had no more issues.

While I hope it isn't your graphics card going bad, you might want to consider that possibility.

ps: "AA" is anti-aliasing. It makes round lines nicer... without the jagginess. Or at least, it tries to smooth out the jaggies. Personally I don't turn it on for any game - my natural eyesight has built-in AA cuz everything looks fuzzy to me now :)
 
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You mean like this (play in a big window at 720p or higher)?
[video=youtube;2WMfsMjENSI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WMfsMjENSI[/video]

I noticed that too on my new computer (old computer was so weak I had to turn everything off and play in a reduced resolution window anyway). I've filed a ticket with a link to the video but no response yet.

I encountered that years ago when I had a dud graphics card. It worked for a few months fine then I started seeing these graphical artifacts and updating drivers and such did not fix them. I thought it might have been the monitor so I plugged the monitor into another PC and no shimmering/flashing lines appeared.

Turns out that it was the graphics card and once I replaced it, I had no more issues.

While I hope it isn't your graphics card going bad, you might want to consider that possibility.

ps: "AA" is anti-aliasing. It makes round lines nicer... without the jagginess. Or at least, it tries to smooth out the jaggies. Personally I don't turn it on for any game - my natural eyesight has built-in AA cuz everything looks fuzzy to me now :)

Well my observation has been that AA is doing something, there is a big difference between AA off and FXAA/SMAA, but the flickering effect is there, and it appears as if the lines are drawn in alternating bright/dark patches that move across it in a strange pattern which causes the flickering. I see this in some other games, too (Kerbal Space Program, Warframe), in some I do not (Tomb Raider), which leads me to the thought that it might be related to the specific rendering pipeline a game implements. I've tried so many combinations of graphics settings ingame and in the NVidia Control Panel and the effect won't go away. :(
 
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Flickering lines are due to aliasing, which is the inability of the renderer to sample the underlying scene with a high enough accuracy to correctly resolve the true value of the pixels.

All renderers attempt to sample the underlying scene to determine the correct amount of light being reflected/emitted in the direction of the screen, which essentially comes down to figuring out, for each pixel, what the geometry behind that pixel looks like and how much of the pixel it occupies. In realtime renderers, you typically only have a single scene sample per pixel, which means that as a given polygon moves through screen space, the pixels it occupies are either on or off, there's no fading in.

When you have straight lines that approach horizontal or vertical, this tends to present as as "shimmering", "crawling ants" or "jaggies" because the sampling is essentially being interpreted as a signal that's traveling along the line, rather than a line moving across the screen - this is the definition of "aliasing" when an undersampled signal gets reconstructed into a lower frequency signal that seems to do something else. With polygons that are further from the vertical or horizontal limits, the same problem exists, but is far less noticeable. This is why some games don't exhibit the problem as badly, if you don't have a lot of horizontal/vertical lines (which you won't in a jungle, for example) then you're avoiding the underlying problem. Elite has a LOT of mechanical structures with horizontal & vertical lines that line up with the ship, particularly when docking, so the problem becomes VERY apparent.

With textures, the problem is easily solved by simply blurring the texture as it gets further from you (this is what mipmapping does) so that the frequencies in the sampled texture are never higher than the sampling pitch (pixel pitch/resolution), but with geometry (like thin lines) you can't do this, you can't blur geometry.

FXAA attempts to resolve the problem by running an edge detection routine on the rendered image and then applying a blur to those edges, it's a hack and it's not really antialiasing, but it's fast & cheap, the downside is it tends to make the scene look fuzzy and doesn't actually solve the problem, it just masks it.

The "correct" approach (short of a full analytical solution to the underlying scene) involves sampling the underlying scene at a high enough frequency (number of pixel samples) that it can accurately reconstruct the image for display, this gets rid of the jaggies, but requires throwing a hell of a lot more samples into the scene, each pixel has to be sampled multiple times so instead of having on/off states as a polygon travels through it, it fades on and off, which reduces the jaggies substantially. This is called "supersampling" or in NVidia parlance "Dynamic Super Resolution". You're rendering the scene at a higher resolution and then "downscaling" it for display, which softens the edges and gives you a truer depiction of the underlying scene. The downside here is that you're essentially throwing 4x (at least in the case of 2x DSR) the number of samples you need to at the scene, which makes it very inefficient and therefore slow.

SMAA is a hybrid approach closer to full supersampling as it tries to figure out during render time what the high frequency areas are and throws more pixel samples at it, it's slower, so in theory you're only sampling the areas that need it rather than super sampling everything. It's slower than FXAA but faster than DSR, but still doesn't quite resolve the scene correctly - I find that on my Rift DK2, it's the best solution until I can get my twin 980s set up so I can run the scene at 4k :D

TL;DR: Jaggy lines (aliasing) is an inherent problem in renderers, antialiasing routines attempt to fix it, but the best solution is supersampling the underlying scene, but you need a beast of a machine to do that.
 
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That still does not explain why some games have it, and some don't. In the example of Tomb Raider, I have explicitly been looking for the effect and could not find it, ever. Whereas in ED and Warframe it is all over the place.

(In Tomb Raider I have FXAA activated. Doing the same in ED does not help with the flickering lines.)
 
That still does not explain why some games have it, and some don't. In the example of Tomb Raider, I have explicitly been looking for the effect and could not find it, ever. Whereas in ED and Warframe it is all over the place.
Elite & Warframe have very mechanical looking environments, ie. lots of vertical & horizontal geometry, whereas Tomb Raider (at least, as far through it as I've played) has much more organic environments, a jungle is going to exhibit this behavior far less than any environment with boxy buildings everywhere.

If you can build your environment in such a way that continuous horizontal/vertical lines are minimized, then you reduce the scene's propensity to alias, either that or Tomb Raider is doing something very clever to minimize the step function that polygonal edges represent.
 
Elite & Warframe have very mechanical looking environments, ie. lots of vertical & horizontal geometry, whereas Tomb Raider (at least, as far through it as I've played) has much more organic environments, a jungle is going to exhibit this behavior far less than any environment with boxy buildings everywhere.

If you can build your environment in such a way that continuous horizontal/vertical lines are minimized, then you reduce the scene's propensity to alias, either that or Tomb Raider is doing something very clever to minimize the step function that polygonal edges represent.

You may be right. I've been deliberately hunting for the effect in Tomb Raider now and indeed could see it in some rare cases where big machinery showed straight, undisturbed lines. The typical scenery in that game does seem to mask the effect very well.

That said, I am wondering what did break in the course of history of video cards and 3D graphics. I cannot remember this kind of flickering, bright/dark patches moving across lines, effect from ever before. I mean, 10 years ago I would have played games with a mere 2x or 4x AA and that was it, lines were mostly smoothed, some jaggies would not be completely smoothed out but they did never flicker under movement.

Is it a thing with newer NVidia cards? The last NVidia card I used was a GTX 285, after which I had an ATI card which lasted me very well until my new computer which I got about a month ago. Maybe I should bring out the old computer and just as an experiment try the game on the same High/Ultra etc. settings as I do now, ignore the 10 FPS and just check whether I see the same flickering. (Unless the low framerate might then mask the effect due to larger differences in the image from frame to frame.)
 
That said, I am wondering what did break in the course of history of video cards and 3D graphics. I cannot remember this kind of flickering, bright/dark patches moving across lines, effect from ever before. I mean, 10 years ago I would have played games with a mere 2x or 4x AA and that was it, lines were mostly smoothed, some jaggies would not be completely smoothed out but they did never flicker under movement.
It's probably a case of increasing detail in game environments. As you increase the resolution of textures and complexity of game geometry, you'll create higher frequencies in the scene which is going to result in a greater propensity to alias, ironically, as you increase the render resolution, the crawling effect becomes more noticeable as you get away from blockier jaggier outlines.

eg. Elite has a LOT of fine, parallel lines like railings, so those alias horrifically, especially when you reach the point that the railing is less than one pixel across.
 
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