[Video] Developer over-reliance RNGesus & procedural generation
- Thread starter Yamiks
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Starting to get the notion some content creators are getting to a similar point I reached over a year ago - Three/fours years in, and we still have thin disjoined gameplay, yet development time galore to bolt on more dead end questionably thin mechanics.
As ive' said a number of times, Q4 is going to be telling. ie: Can FD with a clean slate and a clear declaration of improving core gameplay (for mining and exploration), actually, well, raise the bar on the depth of the games mechanics (at last)?
As ive' said a number of times, Q4 is going to be telling. ie: Can FD with a clean slate and a clear declaration of improving core gameplay (for mining and exploration), actually, well, raise the bar on the depth of the games mechanics (at last)?
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We can all but hope.
The procedural outposts are actually allot more interesting than the hand crafted stations. Every outpost looks a bit different.
Furthermore, PG is only as good as the amount of assets you create for it to use. If Frontier had continued adding new assets on a regular basis, we would have allot more varied galaxy.
I agree on the missions part. PG has always been horrible for creating story like elements. Skyrim's radiant quests as an example are pretty bad.
Furthermore, PG is only as good as the amount of assets you create for it to use. If Frontier had continued adding new assets on a regular basis, we would have allot more varied galaxy.
I agree on the missions part. PG has always been horrible for creating story like elements. Skyrim's radiant quests as an example are pretty bad.
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It was a good when they changed it so missions weren't gated by your rank, but I still feel like your rank should be more of a part in how much the mission pays out, in addition to the suggested rank. I get they don't want lower rank players progressing too fast, but what about those who have progressed to the top?
Pay me more because I'm Elite, not just because the mission suggests it's for my rank... On your point about RNGesus wasting time by dealing out crappy missions, I think that could help toward feeling like the end game feels more rewarding in general.
Pay me more because I'm Elite, not just because the mission suggests it's for my rank... On your point about RNGesus wasting time by dealing out crappy missions, I think that could help toward feeling like the end game feels more rewarding in general.
It is impossible not to use RNG in a limited games world, as you can't recreate every situation in every context and program it.
Its more about how you hide it and make it feel like you are not subject to RNG, that is where the skill/immersion/game play argument is won.
Its more about how you hide it and make it feel like you are not subject to RNG, that is where the skill/immersion/game play argument is won.
Sorry to repost but... My biggest issue in the game right now isn't the C&P, or the engineers it's the utter lack of non wing trade missions and the lack of variety in them. Everybody says go to a Boom Extraction/Refinery system and yee shall find tons and tons of mining missions. Absolute bunk. I stumbled on them in a system that is in Retreat and I rarely find them in a Boom system at all.
The other thing is why wouldn't there be missions to get silver or samarium? I rarely ever see these. Since the osmium missions go for 10 to 20 times the cost of the commodity board, why not these? These would make great missions for a small ship. Good profit, easy to find, do a couple of these and you feel like you did something.
For that matter, why is it always get 100-1000 tons of gold, computer parts or what ever. Why wouldn't you put out a source mission that says bring me 10 tons of silver, 5 of gold and 4 palladium? It doesn't make sense, particularly to outposts. In boom states nobody is saying
Of course, I've been told I'm playing the game wrong. I either need to forget about missions altogether or move to one of the few systems that, for no reason at all, will generate a reliable amount of trade/mining missions. If that's the case, why have the stinking mission board at all. You go to a boom extraction/refinery system and all you see is kill this, scan that and black box type missions. Mining missions? Why on earth (or any other planet in the whole dang galaxy for that matter) would you expect to find a mining mission in a boom refinery/extraction system? Yes, of course, that would be insane.
Oh yeah, I'm playing the same game as everybody else, I just don't like cherry picking systems or putting down roots for very long. Unfortunately, this game requires you to stay in one place to build reputation and, if your lucky, you will get a couple missions tossed your way.
The other thing is why wouldn't there be missions to get silver or samarium? I rarely ever see these. Since the osmium missions go for 10 to 20 times the cost of the commodity board, why not these? These would make great missions for a small ship. Good profit, easy to find, do a couple of these and you feel like you did something.
For that matter, why is it always get 100-1000 tons of gold, computer parts or what ever. Why wouldn't you put out a source mission that says bring me 10 tons of silver, 5 of gold and 4 palladium? It doesn't make sense, particularly to outposts. In boom states nobody is saying
let the good times roll by bringing us these luxury items
or illegal drugs... Nope. Go kill some pirates or something.Of course, I've been told I'm playing the game wrong. I either need to forget about missions altogether or move to one of the few systems that, for no reason at all, will generate a reliable amount of trade/mining missions. If that's the case, why have the stinking mission board at all. You go to a boom extraction/refinery system and all you see is kill this, scan that and black box type missions. Mining missions? Why on earth (or any other planet in the whole dang galaxy for that matter) would you expect to find a mining mission in a boom refinery/extraction system? Yes, of course, that would be insane.
Oh yeah, I'm playing the same game as everybody else, I just don't like cherry picking systems or putting down roots for very long. Unfortunately, this game requires you to stay in one place to build reputation and, if your lucky, you will get a couple missions tossed your way.
Extraction is good for cargo haul missions ... not necessarily for mining.
Refineries, I find, are mainly good for salvage missions.
If you have a low trade rank, you get the small missions. If you have a high trade rank, you get the big missions (which pay quite a bit more per tonne).
Very irritating if you have a high trade rank but fancy flying around in something smaller than a Python today.
On the other hand, offering 100t missions to new players in Sidewinders, or filling half the board with the low-paid 3t missions for Anaconda pilots, is not a great solution either. At the moment the board doesn't take into account your ship type when generating the missions ... perhaps it should?
Extraction ... arguably not. They already produce and export a surplus of most mined materials, so why would they pay a significant excess for you to get more?
Refinery, yes ... except that most of the minable materials that refineries import are also tradable, so you'd expect to see those as "source" missions and whether you fill them from mining or purchase is up to you.
Industrial or High-Tech - the economies which have significant demand for the various mining-exclusive goods - are the ones I've found most likely to give out mining missions.
OK, so RNG becomes annoying - I get that, humans are great at recognising patterns, so we always spot RNG (and it's not well hidden in this game). But to then argue that you don't like that missions are different on different stations seems ... counterproductive. That's the BGS / system settings affecting the missions, meaning your skill at choosing locations can have an effect on what you get - don't people want that? The alternative is even less difference between locations, though I suppose for teh grinders...
Best thing in this game is playing in a group of humans, then the RNG stays in the background. Grinding alone on the RNG missions will obviously make them more obviously RNG, and why you would do that for a better ship, just so you can then go grinding on the RNG again .... I don't know.
Best thing in this game is playing in a group of humans, then the RNG stays in the background. Grinding alone on the RNG missions will obviously make them more obviously RNG, and why you would do that for a better ship, just so you can then go grinding on the RNG again .... I don't know.
There's been a shift in opinion on the forums. 2 years ago you'd have so many white knights jumping in. Now, people seem to realise the simple mechanics of the game but they've been there since launch.
Only some?
LOL
Only some?
Not there yet. But ask me again in six months
My argument was that REWARD still has WAST difference between stations that are seemingly equal.
AGAIN : I get it that you get bigger reward for providing needed things to places that need them, BUT generic mission rewards tend to just be very different (for potentially equal effort)... and this is where the RNG has failed us!
Actually, your lucky if you can find something other than Data missions... Trade missions (non wing) are hard to come by as a general rule in any system. Why would an industrial system or high tech in a boom state not be predominately trade missions.
Again... Why? Makes no sense.
I have 2 accounts, one is new and the other is Elite in trade. I have an easier time finding missions with the low ranked commander. Possibly due to the fact I'm only trying to fill a Python, partly due to the inexplicable fact that you tend to find better missions and more mining missions at outposts rather than large stations. I can make as much or more in my Python than I can in my T9 if I'm mining or mission running (trade, not passenger). I will not take a wing mission in my T9 to spend hours hauling stuff for the crappy payouts you get in wing missions.
When I say refinery/extraction it's because you often can't find a system that is only extraction or refinery. If it was a logical setup for the mining missions you'd get missions to haul to refineries or get mining missions to drop off at refineries. But common sense isn't valued very highly. Realistically, the whole mission generating system needs a balance pass so that it's logical to find certain missions types being generated in certain systems at during the appropriate states. As it is now it is entirely too random and nonsensical. Kill this, scan that, transport data or salvage, no matter what the state. Data mission to relieve the famine... Really? Have you had your recommended daily amount of data today? Be sure to buy organic, non GMO and you'll be healthy in no time!
True. In a game with the size and scope of ED you need to utilize procedural generation and RNG in order to flesh the game world out. However, that kind of RNG isn’t really the problem, it’s Frontier’s insistence to overuse RNG in the game mechanics instead of player agency and actions which is hurting the game.
RNG to find missions. RNG to find materials. RNG to fight enemies. RNG when modding your ship. RNG when hunting for signal sources.
Some of the best aspects of the game are the parts where players have a hand in doing something. Like the SRV wave scanner when looking for things, or neutron jumping, or combat in general, or surface salvage missions with the bouncing search designator.
Elite needs more active player initiated game mechanics and less randomly generated outcomes. More actions, less waiting for things to happen based on dice rolls. It often feels more like Elite Gambling than Elite Dangerous.
The fundamental disconnect is between game play and the background simulation that generates the available missions.
You have players constituting a huge range of assets (ships, credits, experience, skill) and the task list is simply too short (even with factions offering 20 missions each) to accommodate those player capacity differences. The problem is compounded when the BGS RNG skews the types of available missions to one or two inaccessible categories.
Responses such as "you're dumb, look at the system state and find a system that has the right state to get the missions you want" is missing the damn point. (By the way where the hell in the tutorials or through in game dialogue is there a paired list of system states and aligned mission types? - NO WHERE!)
Every system - (like our 2018 cities) has basic operational needs for resources, security, data, and passenger travel irrespective of state. This means (if we truly are simulating planetary systems with large populations), that there should be a HUGE range of things to do at multiple levels of capacity in EVERY DAMN SYSTEM.
I'm suggesting that every system should have a fundamental core of reasonable payout missions for all player capacities, with an added layer of BGS system state missions.
In this way the whims of the BGS will not prevent people from playing the game.
If I'm a newbie, and I fly into a station representing a population of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, I'd better not just see an exclusive list of fricken massacre missions for me in my "D" rated Adder.
Over-reliance on RNG is a real thing in Elite. It's lazy. It's not fun.
You have players constituting a huge range of assets (ships, credits, experience, skill) and the task list is simply too short (even with factions offering 20 missions each) to accommodate those player capacity differences. The problem is compounded when the BGS RNG skews the types of available missions to one or two inaccessible categories.
Responses such as "you're dumb, look at the system state and find a system that has the right state to get the missions you want" is missing the damn point. (By the way where the hell in the tutorials or through in game dialogue is there a paired list of system states and aligned mission types? - NO WHERE!)
Every system - (like our 2018 cities) has basic operational needs for resources, security, data, and passenger travel irrespective of state. This means (if we truly are simulating planetary systems with large populations), that there should be a HUGE range of things to do at multiple levels of capacity in EVERY DAMN SYSTEM.
I'm suggesting that every system should have a fundamental core of reasonable payout missions for all player capacities, with an added layer of BGS system state missions.
In this way the whims of the BGS will not prevent people from playing the game.
If I'm a newbie, and I fly into a station representing a population of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, I'd better not just see an exclusive list of fricken massacre missions for me in my "D" rated Adder.
Over-reliance on RNG is a real thing in Elite. It's lazy. It's not fun.
Absolutely agree with this. I think there probably needs to be pre-selector on the fetch so you can pre-select by trade or combat related missions.