Violence in games

[Hexen]

I propose to use that thread as continuation of discussion related to the game Hatred. Which in turn involved discussion of dozen other games, genres, aspects of morality and immorality, bad and good. As discussion evolved I think it would be proper to use separate thread because it becomes less and less related to the original subject.

Apologies if I sounded aggressive, wasn't my intention. I didn't brand everything you've said as rubbish though, only the parts that I genuinely thought were, like justifying GTA's violence and brutality with it's good storyline and yet dismissing Hatred - because, by analogy, it doesn't have a good storyline? You didn't even know that at the time and the pure fact of saying that GTA is OK because it's a great story is just wrong.

Also saying that games like Carmageddon, Red Faction, Postal 2 and GTA don't force you to take the aggressive, brutal and violent stance is ridiculous. Give me an example in those games where you can sort things out in a non-violent and peaceful way or where you can be a good guy and don't kill, torture or otherwise damage other people and their property. There may be an odd mission or two that allow for that kind of approach in those games, but doesn't mean the remaining 99% of the game isn't forcing you to be a bad boy.

I'm sorry, but that's what I genuinely think about these statements (the statements, not you directly).

It's OK. Thank you.

GTA closely related to movies and most of it's stories related to something similar that you can find in many popular crime dramas/comedies and a lot more. But instead it allows you to take part in the story development. Something that classical movie will never let you do. How you participate in it - it's your choice. Sure you can be a gangsta and violently crush all the opposition while surrounding yourself with small army of thugs, hookers, guns and money. And I guess it will be a most popular choice but it's not the only one. You can be stealthy, you can focus on the missions, you can focus on the open world and don't progress anywhere if that's your thing. It's all depends. You have a choice.

And great storyline is something that makes you understand that it's a fiction. You watching a movie, but it's not a movie - it's a game. It's a whole other perspective but in the end it's the same piece of entertainment. I don't claim it to be truth in the last instance, it's just how I see it. But I already mentioned - I don't feel the urge to hate people when I watch 80-90's action movies with explosions, endless bullets in guns and ketchup rivers of "blood". I doubt that any sane person will get any violent urge in relation to other human beings from that. It's a very bright and shiny picture, it looks cool but deep down you realize it's just imagination because in real life things just doesn't work like that.

A lot of other games took somewhat different approach than GTA due to various reasons (budget mostly). Carmageddon and Postal 2 for instance depict world is a sick yet unrealistic way. It's a black humor, semiresemblance of reality. I have trouble describing it but I guess closest thing will be that world around you got insane, drunk and on drugs at the same time. Everything looks rather unreal to me in those games and again I can hardly depict NPC's in those games as humans at all. It's that outlandish for me. Red Faction seek it's way out in a more trivial way. It's done sci-fi hat and called everyone around you as a bad guys. Although whole games in that particular series related to blowing things out - I'd call it even more dubious than Carmageddon or Postal 2. Calling everyone around you as bad guys and use it as excuse to commit all sorts of atrocities been used way too often in Humankind history and sadly it's as much as popular in the games/movies too. We evolved a lot as a species in the past few hundred years but calling names and using imaginary excuses is something we yet to get rid of. Sadly. At least general public in the majority of countries got away from burning people on stakes to watching movies with "good guys" killing "bad guys". So it is what it is although most of the games use it in less provocative manner. Although I should note that I didn't played last GTA and I heard there's a torture scenes and such... If so - shame really.

What's wrong with TB?

He talks a lot and I understand it's his job. But I'd rather keep my time for something more useful/entertaining. Also I don't appreciate narcissism and lack of public communication.

 

[EdzUp]

The only thing about everything discussed that gets my goat is its available to under the age stated. Most of these things are 18 rated (UK rating) but buying online kids can get them without age checks, heck some get em from high street shops by sending uneducated adults to get them.

Its about time all of this was looked at severely as all this sort of thing could be causing problems with children that already have underlying issues.

I remember the furore Kingpin made with its swearing and the original GTA game

 

[Hexen]

The only thing about everything discussed that gets my goat is its available to under the age stated. Most of these things are 18 rated (UK rating) but buying online kids can get them without age checks, heck some get em from high street shops by sending uneducated adults to get them.

Its about time all of this was looked at severely as all this sort of thing could be causing problems with children that already have underlying issues.

I remember the furore Kingpin made with its swearing and the original GTA game

I agree but it goes way too far than games itself. Games just retranslate everything that happens around and quite rarely it's the other way. There's no need to form a strict bubble of "protection" around children because it would not work anyway as humans naturally seek everything that branded as "restricted". But there should be some firm understanding what is right and what is wrong IMHO and current society totally lacks it all around the globe. You know better than me why but I guess educating children would be a right thing to do to change the tide of "battle".

I know it sounds a weird. But even more weird encountering adults in the modern society, living in a educated, healthy and wealthy environment who can't tell bad from good. If you want it real bad - it's OK. Because you are the main hero of that game. But it's not the game, it's real life! They can't tell the difference, they lack fundamental social skills and they frighten me. All that stops them from engaging in shady and dangerous activities is a fear of capital punishment. Not some moral boundaries. And we get more and more of such people. They are products of the system sadly.

 

[Geers]

The torture scene in GTA still isn't as bad a lot of movies that exist. It's utterly ridiculous to say "no no that's too much. Hey do you want to go watch Saw instead?".

That scene made me uncomfortable. Yes, it made me feel something. And if it's done that, it's done something right. Reality isn't all sunshine and rainbows and all GTA does is highlight and exaggerate the nasty bits. Plus right after that scene you drive the guy to the airport and the main character gives his own little political commentary on how torture is done to satisfy the torturer, rather than force the torturee into doing or saying anything.

No art form should ever be shamed for making a statement. If you don't like it, don't go anywhere near it. Simple as that.

Now I didn't play any game in the series before RF: Guerrilla but in RF:G you don't go running around calling everyone evil. It's a very "Independence war" vibe where there's a foreign government oppressing a colony. The only faction that gets any hate is the Earth Defence Force.

No offence but I really don't think you've had enough experience with these games to be making judgement calls on them.

Also I don't appreciate narcissism and lack of public communication.

What narcissism? Where? If he makes a mistake he acknowledges and apolgizes for it. He doesn't claim to be an infallible source of wisdom. If he's unsure of something he doesn't try to p through an explanation.

 

[rootsrat]

[Mod hat on] I moved your post, as it fits this discussion better. [Mod hat off]

The only thing about everything discussed that gets my goat is its available to under the age stated. Most of these things are 18 rated (UK rating) but buying online kids can get them without age checks, heck some get em from high street shops by sending uneducated adults to get them.

Its about time all of this was looked at severely as all this sort of thing could be causing problems with children that already have underlying issues.

I remember the furore Kingpin made with its swearing and the original GTA game

I agree. It needs more regulation, but I also think that the education of adults on the matter needs equal attention. I myself was a witness of a situation couple of years ago where my supervisor purchased the latest - at the time - Call of Duty game for her nephew, which was 8 years old then. I was well surprised to see that and I asked her if she knew what kind of game it was. She didn't have a clue and when I explained that it's very realistic depiction (in a visual sense) of modern war and there is a lot of killing, violence and brutality, shs's only shrugged and seemed oblivious to the effect such a game can have on an 8 year old kid.

It was quite a shocking experience for me I must say. I recently came across this blog piece which raises some important questions and illustrates how little adults know about modern gaming environment. A highly recommended read!

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that video games cause violent behaviour. I am a heavy gamer since 8-bit era, I've always had a computer ever since I was 7 years old (i.e. ince 1987). From Atari 2600 to PC, I've been gaming on them all. I'm no expert on the matter, this is not about bragging, it's about making you aware that I've been in gaming since the early years.

I watched the gaming evolve into what it is today, I was raised on Bruce Lee, River Raid, Mortal Combat, Carmageddon. I remember when first Postal came out. I remember Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and many other extremely gore games that were all about decimating your opponents. And yet I've not grown into a psycho killer that baths in the blood of his victims and carries a 20-inch knife in his pocket at all times.

Video games were ALWAYS about violence, and it's fine. I think it all boils down to HOW we approach that violence and how we control and educate our children about it, ESPECIALLY in the modern era of internet, where pretty much everything is accessible by anybody that is able to enter their fake date of birth into the relevant fields in the warning box upon opening a 18-only web page.

 

[Geers]

[Mod hat on] I moved your post, as it fits this discussion better. [Mod hat off]



I agree. It needs more regulation, but I also think that the education of adults on the matter needs equal attention. I myself was a witness of a situation couple of years ago where my supervisor purchased the latest - at the time - Call of Duty game for her nephew, which was 8 years old then. I was well surprised to see that and I asked her if she knew what kind of game it was. She didn't have a clue and when I explained that it's very realistic depiction (in a visual sense) of modern war and there is a lot of killing, violence and brutality, shs's only shrugged and seemed oblivious to the effect such a game can have on an 8 year old kid.

It was quite a shocking experience for me I must say. I recently came across this blog piece which raises some important questions and illustrates how little adults know about modern gaming environment. A highly recommended read!

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that video games cause violent behaviour. I am a heavy gamer since 8-bit era, I've always had a computer ever since I was 7 years old (i.e. ince 1987). From Atari 2600 to PC, I've been gaming on them all. I'm no expert on the matter, this is not about bragging, it's about making you aware that I've been in gaming since the early years.

I watched the gaming evolve into what it is today, I was raised on Bruce Lee, River Raid, Mortal Combat, Carmageddon. I remember when first Postal came out. I remember Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and many other extremely gore games that were all about decimating your opponents. And yet I've not grown into a psycho killer that baths in the blood of his victims and carries a 20-inch knife in his pocket at all times.

Video games were ALWAYS about violence, and it's fine. I think it all boils down to HOW we approach that violence and how we control and educate our children about it, ESPECIALLY in the modern era of internet, where pretty much everything is accessible by anybody that is able to enter their fake date of birth into the relevant fields in the warning box upon opening a 18-only web page.

I don't know if other countries get this but in Australia there's an ad that comes on pretty often about the ratings system. However it never mentions video games. I get that it's supposed to be about stuff on TV but it might as well cover everything.

[video=youtube;zGlYZWxQKW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGlYZWxQKW8[/video]

Maybe I should complain...

 

[Hexen]

Wrote long post with a lot of personal examples but thought it can be way simpler.

Parents always see their children as angels that can't do anything bad. Society can't take any action and unless it involves some legal implications - kids can get away with almost anything. Sure physical punishment had to go, no doubt here but there should be a better way than all allowance because in most cases parents simply don't care unless it's their property damaged. In the end games just an easy scapegoat for a wrong society that teaches wrong lessons to the kids. It's better to blame games than try to change educational system or at least acknowledge how twisted and sick our society is.

 

[EdzUp]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that video games cause violent behaviour. I am a heavy gamer since 8-bit era, I've always had a computer ever since I was 7 years old (i.e. ince 1987). From Atari 2600 to PC, I've been gaming on them all. I'm no expert on the matter, this is not about bragging, it's about making you aware that I've been in gaming since the early years.

Tbh back then games were graphically inferior to today's rendered 3d games, I remember games on the Zx speccy called 'Soft and cuddly' ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_&_Cuddly ) yes its gruesome as it doesn't sound. That game was the kingpin of games back then but nobody uttered a single thing. I was fourteen when that game came out.

GTA comes out and there a moral outrage which has continued over the years, we have all been subjected to graphic violence but were all not homicidal maniacs. If we have a underlying psychological problem this can be greatly increased by seeing violence in any shape or form. Its identifying these people which would help all these issues.

Two things missing in today's society is morality and discipline if these were still there this wouldn't be a issue at all.

 

[Geers]

Two things missing in today's society is morality and discipline if these were still there this wouldn't be a issue at all.

Exactly where do you live that gives you that impression? In most parts of the Earth people follow the law and don't brutally murder each other.

 

[EdzUp]

Exactly where do you live that gives you that impression? In most parts of the Earth people follow the law and don't brutally murder each other.

In the South East of the UK

 

[Geers]

In the South East of the UK

Maybe you should consider moving since by the sounds of it a ninja in a Guy Fawkes mask will show up any day now to start blowing things up to classical music.

 

[EdzUp]

I come from an era where people used to talk to you in the street, these days they are more inclined to ignore or attack. Where I come from Brighton,UK it was worse so I did move

 

[Vasea Azure]

Violence in games is nothing compare to what we can see in movies or even read about. Its not games that makes kids violence, its lack of interest from parents and such.
Anyway, if someone goes on the killing spree its because he is a socio-path, not because some violent games and he would be triggered to kill anyway by something else for sure. At least that what I think on the subject.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Violence in games is nothing compare to what we can see in movies or even read about. Its not games that makes kids violence, its lack of interest from parents and such.
Anyway, if someone goes on the killing spree its because he is a socio-path, not because some violent games and he would be triggered to kill anyway by something else for sure. At least that what I think on the subject.

It's what makes a socio-path though.
I'm getting on in years and when I was a kid, if I did something wrong I knew about it.
I was cutting ppl's heads off as a teen in Barbarian on a C64 and other not particularly social things.
I don't think it's the games, I think it's a problem with society in general.
I was taught right from wrong all through my childhood by my parents.
It's funny that when I did go a bit off for a period, it was something I wasn't taught the dangers of.
So, maybe the solution is education, information and maybe some scare tactics so kids realize there's a reality to their actions in game.
Parents especially because it can be very easy for them not to care if the kids are quiet and murdering everyone in sight in COD or whatever.
They are probably happy having unbroken sexy time with the other half...while the kid is killing for hours.
18 rated games bought for the very young, and at impressionable ages, needs to be looked at though. When I was a kid there weren't that many violent games, it was more about the passion and what could be done back then. Nowadays, vast majority of games are graphically violent in one way or another and this mirrors the darker side of society. So, it's like it's familiar enough to the players where it "may" impact on their social activities at some stage or another.

Basically, it's what a person perceives and what they are taught that makes them what they are.
If you want to fix it, start there.

I don't think it can be fixed though because of how society works and its demands.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Violence in games is nothing compare to what we can see in movies or even read about.

And in the real life also

 

[Asp Explorer]

And in the real life also

Exactly this. People out there are doing absolutely indescribably horrible things to people, far far worse than any video game designer could come up with. The thing is, the world would be a much better place if these people were designing horrifically graphic and violent video games, rather than actually performing atrocities.