Viper entirely outclasses Eagle?

[Jexter]

Honestly I like the whole linear 'stepping stone' thing. Having bonuses on a ship can make you feel locked to it, not able to change because you'll loose the edge of the bonus.

I want to work hard in one way or other to obtain the needed credits for the next bigger (maybe) better ship and upgrades for it. Then work even harder again to get the next

Obviously there needs to be ships that fill entirely different roles like combat and trading, that's not the same thing.

 

[Viajero]

I'd hope price isn't the only difference. Each ship should have some attraction to them, instead of just being something you use temporarily whilst saving up for a bigger ship. Even the Sidewinder I'd like to see have a better role (perhaps as a tanky light trader, but it could do with more cargo space for that).

Agreed.

Well, in addition to purchase cost/insurance and maneuverability differences, and any other ideas, there is also the issue about Hardness and weapons Hardness Piercing (not hull piercing) values:

Mike Evans: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=596354#post596354

Already been implemented. This will hopefully add in some more balance to the equation irrespective of ship and will open up incentives to use "weaker" ships for their own merit.

Hardness is a value that ships have that alters the amount of damage a weapon will do to it based on a weapons Hardness Piercing value. This isn't the same thing as armour piercing btw. So if a weapon has an equal or higher HP value to that of the targets H value then nothing different happens, the weapon does it's full damage. If the HP value is lower than the targets H value then the damage done is lowered proportionally based on the difference between the two values. This has the effect that small weapons typically are only good against small ships, or more generally weapons are appropriate against the size of ships that can mount them. The railgun is a special case because it punches above it's weight meaning it has a HP value equivalent to medium weapons, so it can do serious damage to a cobra when fitted to a sidewinder for example. This change also means that a cobra has a choice now between 4 small cheap and efficient weapons that are only effective against smaller ships or equip medium weapons and be effective against equal sized ships at the cost of being slightly more difficult to use against the smaller craft (due to fire rates and power drain).

This will need extensive testing and balancing to get it just right but I like the principle a lot.

 

[Cosmo]

I'd hope price isn't the only difference. Each ship should have some attraction to them, instead of just being something you use temporarily whilst saving up for a bigger ship. Even the Sidewinder I'd like to see have a better role (perhaps as a tanky light trader, but it could do with more cargo space for that).
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Seconded, they could make Eagles more maneuverable and more suitable in specific combat situations than Vipers, cause it's a smaller ship. Then it will always be a useful ship, not just for the low price.

 

[alexios]

that is true, but then that makes sense doesnt it?

like someone said earlier, I cant imagine any (sensible) senario where a ford fiesta would beat an aston martin in any head to head.

Fuel economy. Insurance costs. Maintenance costs, maybe.

And that just proves the point: a ship is not a point on some ranking scale from Sidewinder to Anaconda (currently). An Elite pilot in a sidewinder isn't the equivalent of a level 1 character in WoW. It's an incredibly formidable pilot sitting in a different ship.

Different ships provide different types of experiences. Some are better at some things, some are better at others, some are just plain bad. Cars aren't 100% balanced, yet you see people buying manifestly bad cars because (shock) they like them.

When multiple ship ownership comes into play, the type of ship you own will stop being a ranking (probably to be replaced by the number of ships you own, because some people think every game should have a score).

 

[bassman]

I entirely agree. Each ship should have it's place and not be simply a stepping stone to something better. Otherwise, as you say, entire swaths of the ships in the game might as well not exist since no one will ever use them.

If each ship has it's special role then that opens up a lot of interesting gamplay and player choice. Otherwise why bother?

I'll drink to that.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I've heard it said on youtube that the Viper's shields are very weak in comparison to others. Anybody able to testify?

 

[mid_gen]

I've heard it said the shields are weak....that would make it an entirely different proposition to an Eagle.

 

[Aleksej]

Viper is decent with 320 top speed, 500 boost, very maneuverable and has superior firepower. IMO it is more maneuverable than a Sidewinder and can boost to 500 in 1 second. So Eagle is no match to Viper. As well as Cobra if we compare them in Combat.

 

[1500]

Viper is decent with 320 top speed, 500 boost, very maneuverable and has superior firepower. IMO it is more maneuverable than a Sidewinder and can boost to 500 in 1 second. So Eagle is no match to Viper. As well as Cobra if we compare them in Combat.

But the viper should be better than the Cobra in combat, the Cobra is general purpose and has 36 of cargo space vs the Vipers that is geared for combat and only has 8 units of cargo space.

 

[Aleksej]

But the viper should be better than the Cobra in combat, the Cobra is general purpose and has 36 of cargo space vs the Vipers that is geared for combat and only has 8 units of cargo space.

That's what I mean. If a pirate gets a Viper then Cobra is in big trouble.

 

[Yellonet]

That's what I mean. If a pirate gets a Viper then Cobra is in big trouble.

...given equal pilot skill.

 

[Aleksej]

...given equal pilot skill.

Viper reduces skill requirements. It can accelerate much faster than Cobra, increase the distance turn around and attack again and again.

 

[1500]

That's what I mean. If a pirate gets a Viper then Cobra is in big trouble.

I would expect that the Cobra is more durable and should be able to get away with the right equipment. Balance is a very complicated thing, make the Cobra equal to the Viper in combat, it turns into "why fly the Viper". It is possible to set up ships to be balanced in other ways, for instance the Cobra could be equal in combat to the Viper but, the Cobra can't escape the Viper (at least not easily), while the Viper could escape the Cobra (kinda how it is now). After all the Viper and cobra have the same weapon fittings right?

Cost of running, and other fittings could also effect it. There is no easy answer, with out just homogenizing all the ships.

Really why fly the hauler? It really is nothing more than a stepping stone to other ships.

Edit: there might not really be a good answer to this problem, and as ED is not really a PVP game its possible finding the answer is not that big of a deal.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Really why fly the hauler? It really is nothing more than a stepping stone to other ships.

Edit: there might not really be a good answer to this problem, and as ED is not really a PVP game its possible finding the answer is not that big of a deal.

I agree I think you are right, it is impossible to balance the ships, whilst at the same time there being ships in the game you absolutely pine for.

With this in mind again, like the group switching, I dont think everyone will be happy what ever FD do.

 

[mid_gen]

That's what I mean. If a pirate gets a Viper then Cobra is in big trouble.

So are Sidewinders, Haulers, etc.

 

[Volkira]

This is a question to all those who already had the chance to try out the Viper, and did fly an Eagle in the past.

From all descriptions as well as the known stats, it appears that the Viper is, in every respect, better han the Eagle.

- 2 class 4 + 2 class 2 hardpoints vs 3 class 2
- Higher top speed
- Larger cargo bay
- (Presumably) stronger hull and shields (remember the Eagle already is weak in both reagrds, I can't imagine the Viper being weaker).
- Maneuvrability? I heard it is great but no idea how it compares to the Eagle

What are the drawbacks? How much quicker does the Eagle turn (if it does at all)? Does the Viper run hot even more easily than an Eagle?

Disclaimer: I love the Viper and am looking forward to trying it out myself eventually, but I also love the Eagle and it would be a shame if that would be demoted to a mere starting ship sidegrade.

(I am still holding out a grudge against whoever made it that the Dagger in Freelancer was a low level ship, best design in the entire game and entirely useless once you can afford something bigger.)

Just went straight for the Hauler instead.Has 16 cargo spots and I can't stop singing Abba's "Money Money Money"