VR-Heads: Would You Want A Virtual Cockpit?

[VR Golgot]

The Rule of Cool:

Stabbing virtual ship interfaces could be cool, right? I reckon that's something we could agree on

The ED cockpit is kind of set up for it already. Bring the menu panels in a bit closer, enlarge them a bit, and you've got a lot of fun stabby inputs at your literal fingertips.

I could see there being issues with swiping through tabs and scrolling through larger lists of sub-targets or what have you, but in theory, a robust implementation could be fun and fairly swift to use. (IE one where you could execute the desired action with relative certainty each time - potentially while looking at something else for the more generic actions).

In a full fat version allowing for some buttons in the actual cockpits to be clickable could up the 'presence' aspect even further. (Flicking switches above your head to lower landing gear and such).


Stick With Me:

The main payoff / downside would be a virtual joystick. Tons of us are HOTAS aficionados I'm sure, but to have those Minority Report style panel interfaces you'd need to be using your motion controllers at all times. And that means a virtual stick.

On the plus side, there are some pretty neat versions out there in the sim-leaning world. I've played around with Ultrawings myself, and it's very robust. But VTOL seems to be the best implementation at the moment:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRlNRF73aJU&t=40s

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7sfNT9Kurk&t=17m50s


Keep some core functions on the motion controllers (pips, boost, utilities, target ahead etc), and I think that these big beasts could be flyable this way. And super sci-fi in the process


A Test Case:

You can see the potential for this approach in the rather lovely Holocab mod:

Source: https://youtu.be/bCRBfDAD-qk



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So what do you think? In a world where FDev stepped forward and said: 'Would you like all this?'. Would you say yes?

 

[Globusdiablo]

I like your thinking.

 

[Wildcat67]

I find the current implementation in VR to be very good. With a HOTAS setup, the current avatar mirrors your movements, and you wouldn't really want to take your hands off the controls.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

The main payoff / downside would be a virtual joystick. Tons of us are HOTAS aficionados I'm sure, but to have those Minority Report style panel interfaces you'd need to be using your motion controllers at all times. And that means a virtual stick.

Actually, having access to a controller that tracks your hand motion gives so much more opportunity than the typical stick. Restricting this to a virtual stick would be a mistake when you redesign the controllers without the mechanical limitations of a joystick. I could perfectly well imagine control schemes where 6dof hand motions correlate to both directional and rotational thrusters.

 

[Arioch]

I’ve played a fair bit of VTOL VR and I think it’s by far the best implementation of virtual HOTAS - with the caveat that the other game I’ve played with one is NMS

I was surprised how accurate the controls were, and the clicky cockpit is fantastic. If ED implemented it I’d probably finally move on from my trusty old Xbox 360 pad (I bought a T1600m last year and couldn’t really get on with it) as long as the New Era had full motion controls, so I wouldn’t be faffing around swapping controllers about. Just a small ask, I know

 

[VR Golgot]

Actually, having access to a controller that tracks your hand motion gives so much more opportunity than the typical stick. Restricting this to a virtual stick would be a mistake when you redesign the controllers without the mechanical limitations of a joystick. I could perfectly well imagine control schemes where 6dof hand motions correlate to both directional and rotational thrusters.

Yep I agree there's a lot more that could be done in that direction (and the Picard gif in the OP is a hat tip to that )

But I think pragmatically speaking:

• The virtual stick is a known entity in VR and can be executed to a sim-friendly standard
• ED already had the stick outputs modelled in game, which is a cute bonus touch for virtual sticks (see the Holocab demo)
• The flight model has been designed with a fairly classic pitch flight + bonus lateral / vert thrusters scenario. (I wonder if the potentials of a free hand input could be fully explored within that setting)
• Gorilla arm is a thing. (The fatigue of holding your hand out and up). Virtual sticks do lend themselves fairly easily to resting your wrist on an armrest etc, if done well. And so can be used easily for prolonged periods.

I just think using a classic stick input is, relatively speaking, low hanging fruit. It could slot right in to how we currently fly.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

I'm not sure - would have to try it out first. I'm less bothered about the idea of 'pushing buttons' virtually than I am about the tactile pressure & feedback (eg - spring) you get from real sticks.
As a dual stick pilot, I'm very dependent on these for really good fine control. I'm not clear on how a virtual option could represent this, and I also can't take hands off, so buttons / keys seem like they'd just slow things down a bit and might be clunky.
I'd be interested in giving it a go though! Just hand rotations and movements might be kinda fun

 

[Arioch]

Regarding “gorilla arm” - I’ve been toying with the idea of making joystick bases for my Touch controllers, essentially a sturdy wooden block with a stiff spring & eggcup arrangement stuck into it, but I don’t play the virtual-stick games enough to justify the upgrade from resting-on-my-thighs.

I’d totally make them for Elite though, laser-etched logos and everything

 

[Marklar_]

I prefer using a physical HOTAS.

I really hate using the motion controllers, and I think it would get tiresome. I'd rather rest one hand on the throttle while holding a beverage in the other.

 

[Ashnak]

Could be nice, but I'm afraid it wouldn't work well with all controllers - I'm looking right now at the WMR/HP reverb controllers. So it would end up as a niche for a niche product (VR).

On the other hand - if you could get a sufficiently good hand and finger tracking, I wouldn't want to be limited to modelling a conventional UI that, if you look at it closely, is still grounded in a setup that lets humans pull on cables that connect to control surfaces. When flying a spaceship with virtual controls, neither of those endpoint limitations apply.

 

[Glen Fiddik]

This works for DCS and some others https://pointctrl.com/

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

• Gorilla arm is a thing. (The fatigue of holding your hand out and up). Virtual sticks do lend themselves fairly easily to resting your wrist on an armrest etc, if done well. And so can be used easily for prolonged periods.

I think you could do quite a lot even resting your arm on a chair armrest. In particular if you have two controllers available.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

I definitely need to touch buttons I operate, I need a feedback.
A virtual cockpit will not work for me.
I've tried to play some flight game in VR but even the oculus touch without a centering spring or a fixed position makes the maneuvering very imprecise.
Virtual cockpit could work with arcade games, but not with simulations.

From this point of view I really wish one day someone will develop a docking base for oculus touch for the flight simulator games.

 

[IamMe]

Dream on!
They weren't even capable to implement FSS into ships UI or include more colour variety in HUD.

 

[Ashnak]

I definitely need to touch buttons I operate, I need a feedback.
A virtual cockpit will not work for me.
I've tried to play some flight game in VR but even the oculus touch without a centering spring or a fixed position makes the maneuvering very imprecise.
Virtual cockpit could work with arcade games, but not with simulations.

From this point of view I really wish one day someone will develop a docking base for oculus touch for the flight simulator games.

You got a point there - with a virtual cockpit, I'd have to rely on watching what I was doing. With physical buttons, I can keep my eyes on the action and trigger the controls by feel.

 

[VR Golgot]

I'm not sure - would have to try it out first. I'm less bothered about the idea of 'pushing buttons' virtually than I am about the tactile pressure & feedback (eg - spring) you get from real sticks.
As a dual stick pilot, I'm very dependent on these for really good fine control. I'm not clear on how a virtual option could represent this, and I also can't take hands off, so buttons / keys seem like they'd just slow things down a bit and might be clunky.
I'd be interested in giving it a go though! Just hand rotations and movements might be kinda fun

Haptic feedback is the usual way to represent centering / distance from centre I think.

Not being able to take hands off for dual-sticking does sound like a bit of an impasse though!

(A very freeform version where you flew like you're playing a theremin could be grand though yeah )

Could be nice, but I'm afraid it wouldn't work well with all controllers - I'm looking right now at the WMR/HP reverb controllers. So it would end up as a niche for a niche product (VR).

On the other hand - if you could get a sufficiently good hand and finger tracking, I wouldn't want to be limited to modelling a conventional UI that, if you look at it closely, is still grounded in a setup that lets humans pull on cables that connect to control surfaces. When flying a spaceship with virtual controls, neither of those endpoint limitations apply.

What are the limitations of the WMR controllers? The variants I've used have worked fine with the Oculus controllers, and didn't even take advantage of the 'finger pointing' function. The hand just morphed to 'pointy button flicking' mode when it approached a potential control. Only input I was using to transition was to grasp the throttle or not grasp it, as a rule.

I think you could do quite a lot even resting your arm on a chair armrest. In particular if you have two controllers available.

Yep I'm sure you could do some comparable cradling. I'm just assuming that using stuff like vertical motion is going to take you away from the rest (or through it...). And then would require recentering, or some kind of pulsed input ('react to vertical input when this button pressed etc'), to allow you spend the majority of your time dandling your wrist.

Not saying it doesn't have a lot of potential, but I do wonder whether rounding off all the corners there is a lot of work, vs the more 'plug and play' options.

 

[Ganogati]

It sounds really cool and I think it would be awesome for new players. But if I'm being totally honest? I'd never use it. Love my HOTAS gameplay far too much.

 

[Flimley]

Ooooo that would indeed be cool. Won’t happen. But would be cool.

Flimley

 

[VR Golgot]

I definitely need to touch buttons I operate, I need a feedback.
A virtual cockpit will not work for me.
I've tried to play some flight game in VR but even the oculus touch without a centering spring or a fixed position makes the maneuvering very imprecise.
Virtual cockpit could work with arcade games, but not with simulations.

From this point of view I really wish one day someone will develop a docking base for oculus touch for the flight simulator games.

Which ones have you tried M?

I've tried some truly god-awful indie ones that definitely didn't handle recentering / reference-point feedback well at all.

Would say Ultrawings is certainly worth a go for one which seems to handle fine stick movement & prolonged use pretty well.

Dream on!
They weren't even capable to implement FSS into ships UI or include more colour variety in HUD.

Erm, pretty much all of the required assets are already in the game. Side panel menus, joystick feedback for visual reference etc. The only thing that would need a touch up would be the cockpit modelling potentially (light turns on when button pressed potentially). But it's not vital so long as there's haptic feedback, and the standard UI status change. (Lights on, light off...)

The examples you mention are pretty unrelated...

You got a point there - with a virtual cockpit, I'd have to rely on watching what I was doing. With physical buttons, I can keep my eyes on the action and trigger the controls by feel.

Haptic feedback can do the job to a degree here. (And could potentially have a certain cool factor in its own right - the 'fuzz' of interacting with a projected panel / the schwip of flicking sub-section around )

I think we could get used to certain norms within that, and use them somewhat instinctively. (How far is the menu panel from me / approx where is the module tab etc). I could almost see myself doing some tasks faster - say flipping off a depleted heat sink util and bringing the back-up online).

Can never be as analogue as the certainty of slamming a switch though, for sure. But might bring its own benefits.

 

[VR Golgot]

Ooooo that would indeed be cool. Won’t happen. But would be cool.

Flimley

Flimley.... nooooo.

Literally the only time I've seen you be negative about something

(FWIW, I think there's a tiny sliver of a use-case for this. As with NMS, virtual cockpits allow for easy transition between piloting and walking. There is a slim possibility that FDev might try and keep up with, and maybe surpass, the Joneses there. As it's a sound solution to that particular conundrum. On the 'hope and dreams' end of things though for sure )