We Need Life - Not Ladders (My View)

[Luniticisi]

I like many others here had been waiting for this game for many years. Over the years, visiting Frontiers website and these very forums for news on the elusive 'Elite 4'.
A good few years ago there was a glimmer of hope "We will start work on 'Elite 4' after we have finished working on 'The Outsider'" and then after many years (and no sign of 'The Outsider') I was pointed in the direction of Kick-starter and there it was .. Elite: Dangerous ...

I was really hoping for an updated version of the original '84 Elite with the scope/size of FE2/FFE and to be fair, that is what I have now and I do really like it .. but there are issues (for me)

The problem for me is that Elite '84 was a mind blowing concept that changed the way we looked and played computer games .. FE2 and FFE showed us the impossible in it's sheer size.

Innovation, where is that in Elite: Dangerous?
In effect we have nothing new from the original games here (multiplayer is hardly an innovation )
The game style, do whatever you want whenever you want was given to us in Elite '84 .. the size of the galaxy was done in FE2/FFE (maybe not to the same scale, I don't remember, but it's the same 'trick')

So far the additions, the main content in the updates, have done nothing FOR ME in the game.

1.1 - Community Goals - personally couldn't give a fig about repeating the exact same tasks over and over to climb some arbitrary ladder.

1.2 - Wings - O.k this needed adding and I guess it's the implementation of 'Alliances' from the DDF/DDA but not of much use to me. (in fact this pushed me back into 'Mobius')

1.3 - Power Play - personally couldn't give a fig about repeating the exact same tasks over and over to climb some arbitrary ladder. this time with pictures

And also the implementation of story in the game through the injected news story's in GalNet could use some in-game help.

Truth is, if you don't read the story's (which I don't, even in the newsletters) you wouldn't even notice what was going on in the galaxy unless you pay an incredible amount of attention.

I am going from MY experience here .. I have no idea what is happening in regards to the story.

Nothing in-game (apart from the story's in GalNet) seem to reflect whats going on as I fly about. if there is a war going on in a system, I shouldn't have to visit a Conflict Zone to see it's effects.. the entire system should feel like it's at war.

If a major dignitary is passing through the system I am in I should be made aware of it, larger police presence .. more stop and search with comments from the police making me aware of the situation that is supposedly happening.

You could even have a message sent to you when you enter a new system telling you of any changes in the story that affect that system.

The game needs a personal touch, little things that bring life the the galaxy and the background story far more than it needed Power Play in my view.

Things like comments from NPC's asking if you heard that the president is dying/dead .. contacts on the BB calling you by name once your rep got to a certain point.

Missions being given outside of stations, Persistent NPC's (we all want that one right?), Distress calls to answer, minor Allied factions calling for your help if they are in danger of being taken over.

Just little touches (I'm sure they aren't 'little' to implement) that make the game world feel alive .. because as it stands, for me it is kinda dead feeling.

Bring life into Elite: Dangerous before you start to add more "Bring the peoples together' Multi-player stuff - Make me feel part of the game world before trying to make me play well with others - that's my view anyway.

Edit: Just wanted to say that I still think that ED is going in the right direction, but it needs just that, Direction

 

[Soulstain]

You hit the nail on the head of what many have said for months. This has been MY experience as well. I'm still waiting for the GAME within the framework. I don't need more ships, I need more things to do with them. You can search threads and read for hours, people's great ideas for content and ways to make the game feel alive. I have gone back to older games which do a much better job in MY opinion. I haven't logged in for weeks. All I read about is apple versions, xbox versions and new ships. Priorities in MY opinion are way out of whack. I was hoping for SO much more from 1.3 mission overhaul wise. Reading the 1.3 threads just leaves me underwhelmed again.

 

[Adam Lusardi]

Persistent NPC's is a must to bring life to the auto messaging system.

 

[Nervous Energy]

Aside from the ladders, which are freedom of choice tbh no harm in that, some do some dont. The reward of extra credits is good enough.

I do disagree with you on GALNET, this is a great feature of the game it brings ELITE to you, gives you systems names where action is if your after that sort of thing or places to avoid if your not It brings the universe to you. SPACE is far to big without some direction as a focal points CGs are good however its the ladder thing that puts me off a little especially to make the cut. X% work deserves X% out imo if you get to certain point and you just happen to be there and get extra all the good to do for being able to cope with the repetitive nature of it.

 

[peteuplink]

This is what I was thinking earlier. The engine is a fantastic technical accomplishment, but there's no game to go with it. Or, should I say, a very limited game to go with it.

I loved the original Elite. When I played it it really made me feel like I was flying around the galaxy in a space ship. However, these days I can see that it was quite basic by modern standards. And I think the same can be said for ED. Not the engine, the engine is great, but the game still feels like the very basic "fly to station, jump, dock, sell/buy, fly to station, jump, dock, sell/buy" we had back in 1984. This type of game play is fine for nostalgia, but it's a bit shallow...

We need more life. More sense that there's something going on in the galaxy, more personality for the different factions.

A better missions system would be a nice addition too with branching missions that have an effect upon your reputation and take you on journeys to far away systems. I don't want it to become full on Bioware/Skyrim RPG levels of missions, but some more variety would be good. In addition to the cargo and bounty missions, we could have missions to find lost ships and missing people, covert ops, follow a suspected smuggler, passenger missions, defend an outpost from pirates, deliver a vaccine to a plague world.

Also the USS's could do with some alteration. Instead of USS, SSS and WSS we should have Distress Beacon, Warning Beacon, Incoming Transmission and so on. The Distress Beacons could be ships in trouble or traps set by pirates. Warning Beacons could be wrecked ships with toxic waste on board or space minefields left over from conflicts. Incoming Transmissions could be triggers that lead to missions or offers from pirate cartels to join them if your kill rating is high enough, or if you have a record.

Finally, we need more variety of space stations. Stations, like pirate outposts, hidden within the rings of gas giants or asteroid fields. Stations that are in low planetary orbit. And instead of stations some systems could have a fleet of capital ships with a flagship that you can dock at, like a trading convoy that slowly moves around the system or a military convoy that needs supplies on the edge of a battle zone.

 

[Backelaer]

Aside from the ladders, which are freedom of choice tbh no harm in that, some do some dont. The reward of extra credits is good enough.

I do disagree with you on GALNET, this is a great feature of the game it brings ELITE to you, gives you systems names where action is if your after that sort of thing or places to avoid if your not It brings the universe to you. SPACE is far to big without some direction as a focal points CGs are good however its the ladder thing that puts me off a little especially to make the cut. X% work deserves X% out imo if you get to certain point and you just happen to be there and get extra all the good to do for being able to cope with the repetitive nature of it.

I don't think Luniticisi said there was anything wrong with Galnet, just that the stories and news from Galnet aren't really carried over into the galaxy itself. If you didn't read Galnet, you wouldn't know there is something going on in a particular system, even when you're visiting it.
I'm curious for Powerplay, and might actually enjoy it, but Luniticisi is right in saying "make me feel part of the universe before trying to make me play well with others" Exactly my opinion too.

 

[Luniticisi]

I don't think Luniticisi said there was anything wrong with Galnet, just that the stories and news from Galnet aren't really carried over into the galaxy itself. If you didn't read Galnet, you wouldn't know there is something going on in a particular system, even when you're visiting it.
I'm curious for Powerplay, and might actually enjoy it, but Luniticisi is right in saying "make me feel part of the universe before trying to make me play well with others" Exactly my opinion too.

That is indeed exactly what i meant

 

[peteuplink]

I'd just like to add that I think the races/powers/factions in the galaxy need more personality.

Let's take Star Trek as an example: In the Star Trek universe we have the Vulcans, logical, scientific yet spiritual. We have the Klingons, aggressive, value honour, slow to make friends. We have the Romulans, distrustful, secretive, war-like.

Each of these races also has it's own style. Different vessels. Different space stations. Different cultures.

In ED everyone is basically the same. There's no appreciable difference between the Empire and the Federation. They're all human. They all share the same design aesthetic. All the stations and ships are the same. There's very little variety.

 

[X-Terminator]

You have big ships with empty seats. In Wings 1.2 they could so easily have added teaming up in 1 ship for a Rear Gunner/Nav Co-Pilot/Systems manager in combat, etc. all with Proximity VOIP responding to headlook positioning.
Ship towing, Tractpr Beam, Stealing Ships, Play as Navy/Security in their loaned ships...
Sorry but the Factions is a fantasy tug-of-war.

 

[Malfahri]

I like many others here had been waiting for this game for many years. Over the years, visiting Frontiers website and these very forums for news on the elusive 'Elite 4'.
A good few years ago there was a glimmer of hope "We will start work on 'Elite 4' after we have finished working on 'The Outsider'" and then after many years (and no sign of 'The Outsider') I was pointed in the direction of Kick-starter and there it was .. Elite: Dangerous ...

I was really hoping for an updated version of the original '84 Elite with the scope/size of FE2/FFE and to be fair, that is what I have now and I do really like it .. but there are issues (for me)

The problem for me is that Elite '84 was a mind blowing concept that changed the way we looked and played computer games .. FE2 and FFE showed us the impossible in it's sheer size.

Innovation, where is that in Elite: Dangerous?
In effect we have nothing new from the original games here (multiplayer is hardly an innovation )
The game style, do whatever you want whenever you want was given to us in Elite '84 .. the size of the galaxy was done in FE2/FFE (maybe not to the same scale, I don't remember, but it's the same 'trick')

So far the additions, the main content in the updates, have done nothing FOR ME in the game.

1.1 - Community Goals - personally couldn't give a fig about repeating the exact same tasks over and over to climb some arbitrary ladder.

1.2 - Wings - O.k this needed adding and I guess it's the implementation of 'Alliances' from the DDF/DDA but not of much use to me. (in fact this pushed me back into 'Mobius')

1.3 - Power Play - personally couldn't give a fig about repeating the exact same tasks over and over to climb some arbitrary ladder. this time with pictures

And also the implementation of story in the game through the injected news story's in GalNet could use some in-game help.

Truth is, if you don't read the story's (which I don't, even in the newsletters) you wouldn't even notice what was going on in the galaxy unless you pay an incredible amount of attention.

I am going from MY experience here .. I have no idea what is happening in regards to the story.

Nothing in-game (apart from the story's in GalNet) seem to reflect whats going on as I fly about. if there is a war going on in a system, I shouldn't have to visit a Conflict Zone to see it's effects.. the entire system should feel like it's at war.

If a major dignitary is passing through the system I am in I should be made aware of it, larger police presence .. more stop and search with comments from the police making me aware of the situation that is supposedly happening.

You could even have a message sent to you when you enter a new system telling you of any changes in the story that affect that system.

The game needs a personal touch, little things that bring life the the galaxy and the background story far more than it needed Power Play in my view.

Things like comments from NPC's asking if you heard that the president is dying/dead .. contacts on the BB calling you by name once your rep got to a certain point.

Missions being given outside of stations, Persistent NPC's (we all want that one right?), Distress calls to answer, minor Allied factions calling for your help if they are in danger of being taken over.

Just little touches (I'm sure they aren't 'little' to implement) that make the game world feel alive .. because as it stands, for me it is kinda dead feeling.

Bring life into Elite: Dangerous before you start to add more "Bring the peoples together' Multi-player stuff - Make me feel part of the game world before trying to make me play well with others - that's my view anyway.

Edit: Just wanted to say that I still think that ED is going in the right direction, but it needs just that, Direction

I see what you are getting at, but since you didn't mention the role playing aspect that other have brought to the game I wonder what you think. Since you have real players to interact with, assuming you play in open, what reason is there for persistent NPCs? Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely LOVE the idea of an infamous NPC Elite Anaconda causing trouble in a sector that requires multiple ships to take down.

 

[micky1984]

LIFE IS LADDERS

 

[Kosmetas]

Great points and solutions, thanks.

 

[Luniticisi]

I see what you are getting at, but since you didn't mention the role playing aspect that other have brought to the game I wonder what you think. Since you have real players to interact with, assuming you play in open, what reason is there for persistent NPCs? Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely LOVE the idea of an infamous NPC Elite Anaconda causing trouble in a sector that requires multiple ships to take down.

Well just for example, have a look at this old archive from the DDA (Design Discussion Archive)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7494

 

[PiLhEaD]

So far the additions, the main content in the updates, have done nothing FOR ME in the game.
Edit: Just wanted to say that I still think that ED is going in the right direction, but it needs just that, Direction

Yep, agreed from me too. I am enjoying ED and it has already given me good value for money, and I am hoping for more. I bought the life-time expansions pack on the basis that this game will in time broaden out.

I play in my own (Mobius hosted) bubble of being a small trader-fish in an amazingly huge pond, so the Community Goals, Wings and Power Play - I've stopped playing v1.3 beta - are all a bit moot for me.

I'd like story-lines that intrude into my effectively single-player bubble - so maybe quarantine/blockade an entire sector and give us HIGHLY profitable mission to go sanctions busting - or flood a zone with NPC pirates - to simulate 'big movements'. I'd like missions that make me feel a personal connection/investment - rescue a stranded ship, transport a VIP, and so on.

I'm not talking about community goals here, but single one-shot missions, unusual, risky and very profitable in nature, that reflect some large, on-going 'thing' - ideally sculpted to ship sizes (e.g. you can't do all of them in an Anaconda). So, getting ViP XXX from A to B has to be done discreetly, and so must be done in a (e.g.) multi-purpose ship no larger than a Cobra. So, force we players out of our well-padded-comfort-zone-ships. Or go even further - 'this mission must be carried out in a stock-model Sidewinder, no upgrades'.

One thing of note from v1.3 - there is a new commodity, 'salvage' - so I am hopeful of more diverse missions - particularly if including the drones.

Oh, and the Diamondback is a hoot!!!

 

[DeathFish]

I was really hoping for an updated version of the original '84 Elite with the scope/size of FE2/FFE and to be fair, that is what I have now and I do really like it .. but there are issues (for me)

The problem for me is that Elite '84 was a mind blowing concept that changed the way we looked and played computer games .. FE2 and FFE showed us the impossible in it's sheer size.
the updates, have done nothing FOR ME in the game.

i very much agree with pretty much everything in this post. The problem with many of the innovations in ED over earlier versions is that they are too abstract. The trouble players are having understanding the ranking system is an excellent example and the benefits of achieving higher rank, beyond being able to access certain ships, are far too nebulous. The CZ are a superb example of this problem—why are the battles not system-wide rather than being corralled up in neat little spherical pieces of space? Hey, if I want to avoid them, all I have to do is fly around them... Even within existing game mechanics, a far better way of bringing conflict to players would be to increase NPC interdictions and install hostile ships around stations. That way it would be hard to avoid the consequences of conflict. Right now, I couldn't off the top of my head tell you what factions I am aligned with, but with some of the suggestions outlined in the starter post for this thread, I would have no choice but to take an interest.

 

[Schmack]

Good post OP.

FD has to make money to support the game 1st and foremost. No money = no development. Once we buy the game our contribution is over, so changing it up to keep us happy probably isn't on the front burner of the FD stove, so to speak. I think once they get established with consoles and such, the money will be there to fund further development with things that were mentioned. This seems like a common theme with many games I've played recently (not that I'm a gamer, almost never play.. that's for kids.. ahem).

I've seen a few things that would probably be easier to implement that would likely create a more personal experience with the game. For example, "greetings ally" should be replaced with "greetings CMDR ______" based on which commander requested docking. If you're an ally shouldn't they acknowledge you by name? How about your rank if you're in a system where you're ranked? "Greetings Chief ______". NPCs should do the same after scanning you "Thank you for your cooperation Chief ____". That message should also be displayed if you enter the fray on a bandit that's attacking a federation security ship. You just assisted in saving a ship (and I disagree about the concept of the escape pod, I've seen the "see you in hell" messages from the NPC ships, odd for an escape pod pilot) and the pilot himself. You get a murder charge if you kill the ship but not even an acknowledgement for coming to it's aid?

In combat zones there's no NPC cooperation. I've had NPCs fly right by me with nothing targeted while I'm being attacked by several flies (eagles) at the same time. How about some priority? If a PC is under attack, NPCs set that as a priority and assist. That could become problematic in that you never get a kill, but at least it would give you the feeling that they know you're there.

There are a host of head scratchers in the game, things that make you go "hmmmm". Some of them detract from the personal feel of the game.

 

[Dooguk]

The OP is right. This isn't the way I expected the game go either. I was expecting to be flying around the Galaxy doing this and that. Then, one day in some backwater station, light years from home. There, on the bulletin board would be the words I'd been waiting for. "Explorer wanted, apply within"

 

[Luniticisi]

The fact is that the potential for this game is huge .. But the thing that seems to let it down (in My view) isn't what is being added, it's what ISN'T being added.

The promise of a living breathing Galaxy has not appeared .. and is sorely missed.

Whilst things like CG's, Power Play and Wings have added to the game for some, I personally feel that fleshing out the galaxy first would have made these additions better.

Why would P.Play make me want to back some picture with some kind of ethos attached which all boils down to 'Do this task over and over and we MIGHT give you a gun/shield/discount ...if you work hard enough'

I would much rather, make my way around the Galaxy, doing the odd thing here and there and then get swept up in some kind of story that takes me somewhere else in my own story .. just by stumbling across it just by chance ..

I want to be stopped in space and asked for my help, I want to visit an unknown system only to find that help is desperately needed, not by some cold text mission on the BB or info on GalNet, but by what is going on around me, messages from NPC's .. the station in disrepair .. visual clues.

As I said before if a system is at war .. show me (and not just by adding a CZ on my navigation panel)

 

[Swearengen]

I like many others here had been waiting for this game for many years. Over the years, visiting Frontiers website and these very forums for news on the elusive 'Elite 4'.
A good few years ago there was a glimmer of hope "We will start work on 'Elite 4' after we have finished working on 'The Outsider'" and then after many years (and no sign of 'The Outsider') I was pointed in the direction of Kick-starter and there it was .. Elite: Dangerous ...

I was really hoping for an updated version of the original '84 Elite with the scope/size of FE2/FFE and to be fair, that is what I have now and I do really like it .. but there are issues (for me)

The problem for me is that Elite '84 was a mind blowing concept that changed the way we looked and played computer games .. FE2 and FFE showed us the impossible in it's sheer size.

Innovation, where is that in Elite: Dangerous?
In effect we have nothing new from the original games here (multiplayer is hardly an innovation )
The game style, do whatever you want whenever you want was given to us in Elite '84 .. the size of the galaxy was done in FE2/FFE (maybe not to the same scale, I don't remember, but it's the same 'trick')

So far the additions, the main content in the updates, have done nothing FOR ME in the game.

1.1 - Community Goals - personally couldn't give a fig about repeating the exact same tasks over and over to climb some arbitrary ladder.

1.2 - Wings - O.k this needed adding and I guess it's the implementation of 'Alliances' from the DDF/DDA but not of much use to me. (in fact this pushed me back into 'Mobius')

1.3 - Power Play - personally couldn't give a fig about repeating the exact same tasks over and over to climb some arbitrary ladder. this time with pictures

And also the implementation of story in the game through the injected news story's in GalNet could use some in-game help.

Truth is, if you don't read the story's (which I don't, even in the newsletters) you wouldn't even notice what was going on in the galaxy unless you pay an incredible amount of attention.

I am going from MY experience here .. I have no idea what is happening in regards to the story.

Nothing in-game (apart from the story's in GalNet) seem to reflect whats going on as I fly about. if there is a war going on in a system, I shouldn't have to visit a Conflict Zone to see it's effects.. the entire system should feel like it's at war.

If a major dignitary is passing through the system I am in I should be made aware of it, larger police presence .. more stop and search with comments from the police making me aware of the situation that is supposedly happening.

You could even have a message sent to you when you enter a new system telling you of any changes in the story that affect that system.

The game needs a personal touch, little things that bring life the the galaxy and the background story far more than it needed Power Play in my view.

Things like comments from NPC's asking if you heard that the president is dying/dead .. contacts on the BB calling you by name once your rep got to a certain point.

Missions being given outside of stations, Persistent NPC's (we all want that one right?), Distress calls to answer, minor Allied factions calling for your help if they are in danger of being taken over.

Just little touches (I'm sure they aren't 'little' to implement) that make the game world feel alive .. because as it stands, for me it is kinda dead feeling.

Bring life into Elite: Dangerous before you start to add more "Bring the peoples together' Multi-player stuff - Make me feel part of the game world before trying to make me play well with others - that's my view anyway.

Edit: Just wanted to say that I still think that ED is going in the right direction, but it needs just that, Direction

From your post, I've read partially through and have figured out that you don't like figs.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

The fact is that the potential for this game is huge .. But the thing that seems to let it down (in My view) isn't what is being added, it's what ISN'T being added.

The promise of a living breathing Galaxy has not appeared .. and is sorely missed.

Whilst things like CG's, Power Play and Wings have added to the game for some, I personally feel that fleshing out the galaxy first would have made these additions better.

Why would P.Play make me want to back some picture with some kind of ethos attached which all boils down to 'Do this task over and over and we MIGHT give you a gun/shield/discount ...if you work hard enough'

I would much rather, make my way around the Galaxy, doing the odd thing here and there and then get swept up in some kind of story that takes me somewhere else in my own story .. just by stumbling across it just by chance ..

I want to be stopped in space and asked for my help, I want to visit an unknown system only to find that help is desperately needed, not by some cold text mission on the BB or info on GalNet, but by what is going on around me, messages from NPC's .. the station in disrepair .. visual clues.

As I said before if a system is at war .. show me (and not just by adding a CZ on my navigation panel)

Yes I think you are spot on, that is exactly what a true open-world game should be.

There are so many things that could be added to make the game feel more alive.

I'd love to see a bookmark feature. This could be used for many things, perhaps I am prospecting in a ring system and find an extremely rare ore, I should be able to bookmark this location and return to it later - or sell the bookmark for profit.

Or perhaps a system is in a state of civil war and needs certain goods. I could leave said goods in a ring system, or a random area of space and bookmark them. These could be picked up later, or the location passed onto someone else for them to collect.

I'd like to drop into a system and fly around and come across a hidden pirate base - these guys then give me a choice to join them, do some work for them or destroy me. I could join them, or escape and report their location to the authorities, triggering a mission event to attack the pirates here.

What happened to mis-jumps and drive failures on the jump-drive?

Where are the crew members for my large ships? In the previous games the Anaconda needed additional crew. Okay you never saw them, but you had to hire them.

In Frontier, I could leave mining drones on planets and return to collect them hours, days or weeks later once they had completed their task.

Why are there no outposts beyond the edges of civilised space? Surely there should be a scientific outpost in some of the nebula, or a military outpost on the borders of systems that require permits. Where are the deep space exploration NPCs?

So many possibilities to make the game feel alive. Frontier talked a long time about building the framework for the game, and then adding the furniture in later. I'm still waiting on the furniture. Power Play and Wings still all seem like framework...