What determines a systems star mass rating?

Col Frost · Jan 20, 2017

I initially believed that D mass star systems were determined as follows:

All F stars are D mass.

Most A stars are D mass.

Some G stars are D mass.

K stars are occasionally D mass.

However I've recently found M class main stars as well as even an L class main star that were in D mass systems.

It could be that I was misunderstanding the naming convention, but they were in ***** **-* D13-* systems.

Does anyone know what determines the system mass rating?

Qohen Leth · Jan 20, 2017

First, it's not relative to the star class.
Second, the range of mass values that get categorized as D or C or whatever mass code is -afaik- relative to the number of systems in the sector and/or to the location of that sector in the galaxy. Depending on the density of the sector, the mass ranges are categorized so that the general mass sector subdivision keeps consistent (eight times more C than D, eight times more B than C, etc.). However, some sectors don't have H mass codes, some don't have A mass codes at all, or neither of those two.

So simply said, D mass code is a value relative to the entire sector, not an absolute value.

Roughly, without my notes around.

Col Frost · Jan 20, 2017

Qohen Leth said:
First, it's not relative to the star class.
Second, the range of mass values that get categorized as D or C or whatever mass code is -afaik- relative to the number of systems in the sector and/or to the location of that sector in the galaxy. Depending on the density of the sector, the mass ranges are categorized so that the general mass sector subdivision keeps consistent (eight times more C than D, eight times more B than C, etc.). However, some sectors don't have H mass codes, some don't have A mass codes at all, or neither of those two.

So simply said, D mass code is a value relative to the entire sector, not an absolute value.

Roughly, without my notes around.

Thank you for the reply, that certainly sheds some light on the subject, very interesting.

This also explains why the D mass sub sector i'm searching near the core for ELW's never contains M class or L class main stars, but a sub sector very close to the bubble with a much lighter density does.

I still believe that all F main stars are in D mass systems though, although I could be wrong, so surely there must be some correlation?

Qohen Leth · Jan 20, 2017

Laws of probability. Given that they are very common, but less than M and dwarfs, and also heavier than them, they happen to be mostly categorized as D. You can find them as E, and if they are giants or above, they will be E or higher.

EDIT: The subdivision process starts by the highest mass in the sector, so in a sparse sector, the subdivision is likely to categorize systems with a higher masscode (and not use the A mass code), filling those subdivisions as it processes the systems, regardless of their absolute mass; whereas in a dense sector, all subsectors will be filled without trouble and thus, more systems are likely to be categorized with a lower mass code, with A ending up embracing its share and potentially an infinite number of supplementary, lighter systems. So in a sparse sector, F class will most likely be D or E, and in a dense sector, D or C.

Col Frost · Jan 20, 2017

Qohen Leth said:
Laws of probability. Given that they are very common, but less than M and dwarfs, and also heavier than them, they happen to be mostly categorized as D. You can find them as E, and if they are giants or above, they will be E or higher.

EDIT: The subdivision process starts by the highest mass in the sector, so in a sparse sector, the subdivision is likely to categorize systems with a higher masscode (and not use the A mass code), filling those subdivisions as it processes the systems, regardless of their absolute mass; whereas in a dense sector, all subsectors will be filled without trouble and thus, more systems are likely to be categorized with a lower mass code, with A ending up embracing its share and potentially an infinite number of supplementary, lighter systems. So in a sparse sector, F class will most likely be D or E, and in a dense sector, D or C.

Thanks again, very informative.

MattG · Jan 20, 2017

My take on it is slightly different. I should add this is all conjecture and I have 0 proof for this. For arguments sake, lets say this is a function of the Forge (but actually, it'd probably be pre-Forge) - for every masscode subsector within a given sector (so 1 for h, 8 for g etc), the Forge determines how many objects are in that subsector using... well, criteria not available to us (so obviously magic). It will definitely be related to how far from the center (Sag A*) the sector is, it might well be related to density within neighbouring sectors. It probably has some sort of overall sector mass calculation in there too. Once it knows how many systems are in the given subsector (can be, and often will be 0), it starts populating it. Part of this will be the starting amount of mass, I'm sure system age is thrown in there, position relative to galactic plane and a bunch more stuff I've not even thought about. And magic. The Forge then "evolves" that system based on those criteria and an element of randomness, and what comes out is what we get to visit. So rather than saying a particular star type forms in X mass code, it's actually the other way around - a mass code d system with the right conditions can evolve a class F star.

There's also another potential issue that can affect definitely down to mass code e, and perhaps even down to mass code d, and that's a deliberate "dampening" of certain mass code sectors close to the core (a strip within +/- 1-2KLY I think). These looks to have been purposefully overwritten with lower masscode systems - the best examples are to look for mass code h systems v close to the core and find only class M or class G stars. Jackie can probably better explain what's happening in those sectors (and the extent).

It's a theory, at least.

marx · Jan 20, 2017

Yeah, the thing is with these theories is that they are very hard to actually verify: we'd need a lot of data. I think that MattG's got it mostly right, but I can neither prove nor disprove it.

Also, the suppression zone is quite interesting. Near the bubble, it probably happens because of all the non-procedural stuff, so that FDev didn't want too many "exotic" stars to happen there. But why the suppression of the core and the Sol-Sag. A* line? Personally, I can think of two reasons: either the galaxy generation algorithm derps out at the highest densities (so, the close proximity of the core) and has to be overridden with this special case to not produce erroneous stuff, or it's some artifact of how galaxy generation works, and for the suppression to happen around the bubble, it has to happen around the line too.
Perhaps someday, we'll get a stream with Frontier going into the technical details of the Stellar Forge. But I'd say the chances of that are quite low.

Qohen Leth · Jan 20, 2017

MattG said:
My take on it is slightly different. I should add this is all conjecture and I have 0 proof for this. For arguments sake, lets say this is a function of the Forge (but actually, it'd probably be pre-Forge) - for every masscode subsector within a given sector (so 1 for h, 8 for g etc), the Forge determines how many objects are in that subsector using... well, criteria not available to us (so obviously magic). It will definitely be related to how far from the center (Sag A*) the sector is, it might well be related to density within neighbouring sectors. It probably has some sort of overall sector mass calculation in there too. Once it knows how many systems are in the given subsector (can be, and often will be 0), it starts populating it. Part of this will be the starting amount of mass, I'm sure system age is thrown in there, position relative to galactic plane and a bunch more stuff I've not even thought about. And magic. The Forge then "evolves" that system based on those criteria and an element of randomness, and what comes out is what we get to visit. So rather than saying a particular star type forms in X mass code, it's actually the other way around - a mass code d system with the right conditions can evolve a class F star.

That's basically what I said, with all the steps that aren't, to me, essential to answer the question.

@marx: the Borderlands Venture is gathering that data.

Rampant · Jan 20, 2017

I had no idea that the letter in the system name had any meaning.

Is there another resource that I can visit to find out more on system naming conventions, star types etc, etc...?

Cheerz

Mark H

Qohen Leth · Jan 20, 2017

Rampant said:
I had no idea that the letter in the system name had any meaning.

Is there another resource that I can visit to find out more on system naming conventions, star types etc, etc...?

Cheerz

Mark H

The name of a procedurally-generated system is a mix of galactic sector localisation, system coordinates in its sector, primary star mass indicator and counter (if needed) for similar mass-code systems in the same sector subdivision(or 'subsector').

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/196297-RV-Sonnenkreis-Decoding-Universal-Cartographics

Thread is a bit old though.

CMDR EfilOne · Jan 20, 2017

Rampant said:
I had no idea that the letter in the system name had any meaning.

Is there another resource that I can visit to find out more on system naming conventions, star types etc, etc...?

Cheerz

Mark H

Sure thing ! : http://disc.thargoid.space/Sector_Naming

It's slightly old and outdated, but should cover the main principles of the procgen naming conventions.

marx · Jan 20, 2017

Also, a bit more about system mass code and star rating: just based on the ELW list, not all F stars are mass code D. Rarely they can be mass code C and mass code E. (I have a mass code count in the extra sheet.) How rarely? Good question. The data I have is on ELW-bearing systems, so it can only indicate how rare code C/E systems with class F main stars and Earth-likes are, not how rare code C/E systems with class F main stars are. I'm fairly certain that the Borderlands Venture data will shed more light on the latter.

Col Frost · Jan 20, 2017

marx said:
Also, a bit more about system mass code and star rating: just based on the ELW list, not all F stars are mass code D. Rarely they can be mass code C and mass code E. (I have a mass code count in the extra sheet.) How rarely? Good question. The data I have is on ELW-bearing systems, so it can only indicate how rare code C/E systems with class F main stars and Earth-likes are, not how rare code C/E systems with class F main stars are. I'm fairly certain that the Borderlands Venture data will shed more light on the latter.

Thanks for the info, very interesting, can't wait to see the results of the Borderlands Venture!

I've noticed something else interesting, I'm on my way back to Chiggy's ELW hunting ground near the core, and am only just over 2 k away from the bubble.
I've found a sub sector with only 50 D mass systems, so thought I'd search it to see what I find.
It turns out that the composition of the systems is completely different to what I was seeing near the core.
An average F class system here has mostly rocky planets, when near the core there's much more variety, and WW's, AM's and ELW's.

Rampant · Jan 20, 2017

Qohen Leth said:
The name of a procedurally-generated system is a mix of galactic sector localisation, system coordinates in its sector, primary star mass indicator and counter (if needed) for similar mass-code systems in the same sector subdivision(or 'subsector').

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/196297-RV-Sonnenkreis-Decoding-Universal-Cartographics

Thread is a bit old though.

Thanks for that.

Coincidentally, I'm on my way back to the bubble from Sgr A* and this afternoon visited a couple of Neutron and Carbon Stars in the FLOARTS Sector with your name in them.

I have a few ELWs with my name on. Does somebody want them to add to a knowledge base?

Cheerz

Mark H

Straha Yeagar · Jan 21, 2017

Here is one that goes against the conventional wisdom...

Qohen Leth · Jan 21, 2017

Rampant said:
Thanks for that.

Coincidentally, I'm on my way back to the bubble from Sgr A* and this afternoon visited a couple of Neutron and Carbon Stars in the FLOARTS Sector with your name in them.

I have a few ELWs with my name on. Does somebody want them to add to a knowledge base?

Cheerz

Mark H

Hehe

Well iirc I found a nice pocket of Carbon stars near that area.