What George R R Martin taught me about ED

[Mars]

[Please don’t move the thread, it IS on topic, just bear me out as I’m making the point in a round about kinda way]

As any of you who have watched Game of Thrones will know George R R Martin has a good way of making you care about what’s going on. He can and will permanently kill off central characters, and once they are gone (as far as I know) that’s it, bye. Indeed a good joke I heard was Why doesn’t George R R Martin use Twitter? Because he killed off all 140 characters!
As a result every time your favourite character gets into a tricky spot (which they do all the time) you are genuinely concerned as at any moment their head, or at least a hand or nose, will come flying off.

At the other end of the spectrum as any of you will know who have played WoW, or CoD or anything else, death is the merest inconvenience. It sets you back a few moments, just long enough to grab a drink and get comfy again.

And this explains why I have found alpha 2.0 kinda boring actually…
Yes…yes.. I know its just an alpha, not the final game, and its testing combat and networking etc. I also recall well the DDF discussion on death penalty: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5323

But it has really underscored for me that when the final details are worked out death really should be meaningful, not just in ironman mode, but in the main game as well.

In the alpha I will happily charge head on to an anaconda with two gimballed pulse lasers going PEW PEW safe in the knowledge that when I get crispy fried five seconds later it will only be another 15 seconds before I am back in the action again. And as a result it’s almost impossible to care. But when it comes to the final game I want to be terrified of taking on an Anaconda, I want to spend hours beforehand putting together a gang of likeminded friends whom we are going to share the bounty between us when we swoop in and attack. And when the Anaconda goes boom I want to be leaping out of my chair whooping with delight. But that is only possible if there is a genuine fear that failure will mean a setback worth hours if not days worth of gameplay.

So again yes….yes, I know this has been discussed before at length in the DDF. But now we have all either played alpha or watched the alpha videos, I’m asking if your views like mine have hardened about the cost of death in the game, or maybe you came to a different conclusion. Because for me tougher death penalties equate more meaningful gameplay and thus more fun.


P.S. Can I please just remind everyone that it is OK to have a different opinion. No need to start calling other people screaming children because you found they have a different opinion on the matter to you. I say this because half the discussions on these boards go that way anytime anything about gameplay gets mentioned.

 

[Chock]

I'd like to see tougher penalties for death. Not because I enjoy the prospect of paying that penalty of course, but because it will mean I have to plan and think about things more.

But also because it is far less likely that some other player will have a pop at me, since they too will have much to lose. Otherwise, what is to stop another player having constant cracks at me in the hope that they will maybe zap me with a lucky shot? Because the law of averages says that lucky shot is going to occur at some point, so what would they have to lose in trying for it if there was no real penalty for losing?

If that's the case, we risk the populated areas turning into ED's version of Jita in EVE (and if anyone knows EVE online, they will know what a pain in the **** that place is).

 

[Valenquo]

"Send me your Cr and I will double it! Send me 500 Cr and I will send you back 1000Cr!"

Ah yeas Jita... Such a relaxing place to just chill and hang out with friends.

Back to the point: If you have a nicely tuned Cobra MkIII with your favourite lasers, a great jump drive and a full cargo, you will not risk shooting at the first bounty just because you can. The risk Vs reward will be a lot more defined in the persistent universe.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

The death penalty in the previous Elite games were severe. You had one life and if you slammed your ship into a space station whilst trying to dock, that was it. You lost everything - or more precisely you lost everything you had gained from your last saved position. From everything I've read and seen in ED so far death is meaningless. Even the supposed "iron" man mode has a safety net that allows your character to be reborn into a new group! lol. So I agree with you, to really give some players that adrenalin rush and to curb the behavior of how people approach difficult scenarios, something more than a mere inconvenience is needed - for those that desire it.

Some games are embracing new death mechanics & ways of handling death. I had hoped ED/Frontier would have been at the forefront of trying new things but it seems they just went for the same old same old we've all seen countless times before.

The death of a spaceman concept in Star Citizen is interesting. Your character can survive only so many encounters but it is ultimately mortal and WILL die permanently at some point. I think you can also die instantly depending on the severity of the situation you're in - i.e a headshot in fps mode or a catastrophic decompression maybe?

Something as an option (and I stress option because not everyone embraces this kind of thing) in any ED game mode for the individual player would be an interesting addition at this point imho. Having that option would be innovative in itself - something the Elite games have been renowned for in the past. I'm not sure if any other game has ever given the individual the option (say at character creation) on how the game will handle that characters demise - instead we are all forced to have it one way or the other. Why not give us individual death options in any game mode, and once selected cannot be changed for that character?

And before anyone says "no one is going to deliberately handicap themselves in a multiplayer game" where one players character will effectively be immortal living in the same gameworld as a player that has chosen to live on a knife edge of character perma death - do you wanna bet?

 

[Sir.Tj]

As long as the thread stays on the subject of Death in ED and any pertinant GoT plot references (i.e whos actually been killed.) Uses the forum spoiler tags, it's fine here...for now....

Spoiler

Any poster who mentions what happened at the Red wedding will be shot down in flames.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The greater the "pain" endured by the player due to character death, the greater the glee of the player (griefer) in a brand new ship who rams your ship causing mutual destruction....

 

[Caribou]

and any pertinant GoT plot references (i.e whos actually been killed.) Uses the forum spoiler tags, it's fine here...for now....

Spoiler

Any poster who mentions what happened at the Red wedding will be shot down in flames.

+1 I just bought the season 1/2 box set

 

[MrShadowfax]

What George R R Martin taught me about ED?
Imps are cool. Always have been, always will be.

 

[Chock]

The greater the "pain" endured by the player due to character death, the greater the glee of the player (griefer) in a brand new ship who rams your ship causing mutual destruction....

However, one would assume that someone simply out to grief in a starter ship would have a lot less shield defences than the craft of any player who possessed anything much worth losing. So the chances are that they would probably only destroy themselves, unless there were multiple people willing to suicide grief someone. Yes I know that sort of thing goes on occasionally, i.e. self destructing ships in Jita, Hulkageddon etc (both in EVE), but that's getting into a different (off topic) issue.

 

[Ayo]

When you lose progress in a game, it is YOUR progress that is lost. When a character in a book/TV show loses something, you feel bad for them, but it's not the same.

Losing your named battle scarred ship, expensive equipment, rare cargo, any missions you where doing, having to pay outstanding bounties, and being sent back to the last place you docked will be a HUGE loss already.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

What I do not want to see is the fun of the few outweighing the fun of the many.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

What I do not want to see is the fun of the few outweighing the fun of the many.

Like? I guess it is balancing issue if that happens.

 

[Kroy]

I get the point, but don't agree. I think it's far too early to call for criticism of the way E: D handles death of a character. We can theory craft all we like, but until we have actually played the game in it's near finished state, I hope that FDev ignore these kind of threads because they know, and we don't.

And like reading a good book, you have to have trust in the author. So it is with games and their developers, paritcularly ones this early in the process.

 

[Krollin]

I get the point, but don't agree. I think it's far too early to call for criticism of the way E: D handles death of a character. We can theory craft all we like, but until we have actually played the game in it's near finished state, I hope that FDev ignore these kind of threads because they know, and we don't.

And like reading a good book, you have to have trust in the author. So it is with games and their developers, paritcularly ones this early in the process.

This!

I was going to craft a very long reply stating the current proposed death mechanics, but until we get to the point where we can see them in action and the risk/reward associated with it I too believe we should just wait and see, then have our discussions and input...

Kro

P.S - I will save my long winded rely for a later date

 

[Ref Minor]

So who is playing Alpha in Ironman mode

 

[Mars]

I get the point, but don't agree. I think it's far too early to call for criticism of the way E: D handles death of a character. We can theory craft all we like, but until we have actually played the game in it's near finished state, I hope that FDev ignore these kind of threads because they know, and we don't.

I’m afraid you do miss the point. Its not in any way a criticism of the way ED handles death, because there currently is nothing is set in stone, the game is still in Alpha. And if FDEV are supposed to be ignoring backers feedback why have these things been discussed at length in DDF threads? In threads that FDEV themselves started?

It is entirely legitimate for backers to have an opinion on what they suggest could be a good course to follow, providing it is constructive and well-reasoned.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Mars!

The subject of death penalties is a tricky one, massively more so especially in a multiplayer forum.

However, there are a few points worth chewing over:

The alpha release at the moment does not represent the intended death penalty (which may be changed itself if it doesn't work out) which briefly is:

* You will end up with significant credit bills to pay
* You will end up potentially a very long way from where your ship was boiled
* You will lose any cargo
* You may not be able to rejoin the same fight

These statements combined sound fairly significant to me.

I can understand your worry though; simply looking at the alpha as is, it's very much a kill, die, respawn affair. This is simply a facet of us testing elements where this sequence helps rather than an indication of the final release.

Hello Erimus!

The current rules for our ironman (we need a better name for this!) mode are fairly brutal: lose your ship without a working escape pod (they can be destroyed) fitted, or fail to activate it it time and you're dead. Potentially you can resurrect the character as a non-ironman pilot, but that's a separate debate, as far as iron man mode is concerned, it's time to start from scratch. Other than uninstalling the game when you die I don't see much leeway to increase the penalty, and certainly not in a reasonable manner .

 

[Iain M Norman]

The current rules for our ironman (we need a better name for this!)

Please not YOLO mode Sandro.

 

[Pyros]

Hello Erimus!

The current rules for our ironman (we need a better name for this!) mode are fairly brutal: lose your ship without a working escape pod (they can be destroyed) fitted, or fail to activate it it time and you're dead. Potentially you can resurrect the character as a non-ironman pilot, but that's a separate debate, as far as iron man mode is concerned, it's time to start from scratch. Other than uninstalling the game when you die I don't see much leeway to increase the penalty, and certainly not in a reasonable manner .

I hope my suggestion to cause the player death IRL is still under study...
Failing that, at least invalidate the game key. Death is death. Want to play again, buy another copy.


Moving out of lunacy mode (or trying to ), death penalties in multiplayer online games do not quite work out as many people seem to think they do. Harsh death penalties do little to improve the game quality and a lot to promote a "bad environment" (e.g. group ganking). But the discussion, debate and supporting information about it is available, as referred, in the DDF archive. So the initial design is set, and just after experiencing it should changes be considered.

 

[Cody]

...we need a better name for this!

<nods> You certainly do, 'cos ironman it ain't.