"What the People Want"

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drc1983

Banned
I remember reading somewhere that the design team thought that their gamers wanted this whole "flight assist, speed limit, atmospheric physics" model for their combat.

The whole reason I picked ED over Star Citizen is that I remember First Encounters and I remember Wing Commander, and I know which of those two I liked best. I figured that no matter what gremlin had gotten into David Braben's head and told him he knew what his customers wanted better than they did, he would still surely do better than Chris Roberts.

Now, though, I'm not so sure. I've been reading about Star Citizen, and I've discovered that THEY are going with realistic physics. Pure newtonian; no speed limits, act like a REAL spaceship would act. So, Chris Roberts, the absolute guru of atmospheric-physics space sims, is gonna give me exactly what I want while Braben, the out-but-back guru of realistic-physics space sims, has tried to TELL me what I want.

ED's crowd funding pulled in, what, 3 mil? Well, Star Citizen is at 52 mil and counting. I took an odd sort of pride in that once, when I thought for sure Braben would do better than Roberts.

Now, though, I feel like a fool for putting my faith in Braben. I'm thinking maybe money really does talk after all. Maybe, Mr. Braben, all that money going to Chris Roberts is telling you that you are flat-out wrong about what the majority of today's space-sim gamers want.

But I have more than just a problem. I have a solution.

Take your current "realspace" physics model and put it on the shelf. It's a great atmospheric flight model, especially if these ships have antigravity. Use it for your planetary landings expansion; let the pilot fly down into the atmosphere like a spaceship, then gradually see his ship start to feel like an airplane once he gets down in there.

That model's all wrong for spaceflight though. If you want a ghost of a chance to start competing with Roberts after your final release, you need to bring in a pure Newtonian model for your "realspace" physics. It's good that with flight assist off, we have the ability to thrust in any direction, but we need to have a 'turn assist' mode that has our ships stop spinning automatically when we center the joystick, and the 'speed limit' concept has to be cut out. Go back to doing it the right way, where ships just keep going faster and faster and being able to run someone down depends entirely on how many G's of acceleration your thrusters can pull.

Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater though; Supercruise is great. I would leave that just like it is; only the sublight model needs to go.
 
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Hrmm...
Am I the only person that is going to play both Star Citizen and Elite?

Not judging by the number of people that have said to me "I've backed both Elite and Star Citizen and will be playing both" :)

EDIT: Just wanted to say a "goodbye" to all the fine folks I've met on the forums here. I'm going to find another Elite place to hang out - maybe set up my own. I'll see you out there anyway folks.
 
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Jenner

I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
Both SC and ED have realistic, 'newtonian' physics driving all of the spaceflight. I think that what you have concerns with, if I'm reading you correctly, is Elite's implementation of the 'flight assist' and how that feels.

Yes, Frontier decided very early on in the development to make the flight assist in Elite Dangerous behave in a way reminiscent of WW2 dog fighting. You may disagree with that, and that's fine, but I think this is a bit late in the process to make such a large change in the underlying mechanics of the game.

The feeling of dogfighting in Elite may not please everyone of course. I for one really enjoy it.

Note:
I can already tell that this thread is going to elevate passions all around. Just remember to stay on topic, offer constructive feedback, and do not engage in sniping or personal attacks. Thanks.
 
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If the Arena Commander combat is any indicator of future combat mechanics of Star Citizen then I am pretty sure already I'll enjoy Elite's one more. Waiting and hoping for both games to succeed, nevertheless.
 
Honestly I get what your saying BUT I play both Arena commander and Elite Dangerous. And I real do prefer the physics in ED. They may not be 'spot on' but they are much more enjoyable. Could you imagine if there was no 'Hyperspace'. Sure it's more realistic but It would take a VERY long time to do anything.

You have to make allowances somewhere or there is no point to any of this. I mean in Star citizen where does their gravity on the carriers come from? Because whatever the excuse it's bull and you know it ;) But it's more fun to just let it go

Imagine If you had to fill out 20 pages of Import/Export forms and go through customs each and every time you took off... (oops forgot to carry line 27 of form A over to my clearance papers)

Realistic = Boring :p

I like the way it is so far :D
 
Maybe SC flight model is realistic but it's boring and immersion-breaking as hell. And all this talking about CIG tending to be more sim-oriented tha FD is a joke: it's an assumption based upon a rushed out dogfight module prototype for a get to come game marketed with cgi ads showing ships flying contradictory atmospheric-like flight model.

I get what you want: a semi assisted (on rotation) flight assist off. Yet you have to understand that the choice not to make FAoff like this is balance choice. And a good one.
 
Star Citizen has an even lower speed limit than Elite: Dangerous, also both use Newtonian physics.
 
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Where was star citizen when I was a wee lad. No thankya, i'll be backing team Elite all the way. What's the point in having two space sims the same anyways?

I backed the sim that gave me countless happy memories growing up. Braben built the sim he himself wanted to play and i'm happy to play in his back yard any day :)
 
Star Citizen definitely has a speed limit, and it has its own fly by wire system, it's simply different. If you prefer one over the other you are absolutely entitled to that.

Most of what you wrote though was a rather bizarre attempt to generalise your own sentiment into a broader message. Bear in mind SC had made tens of millions before anyone had flown it at all. It's not that the masses chose SC over ED for its flight model, if anything their style of presentation has been far more significant in attracting crowd funding

Indeed ED was criticised for being very quiet on the publicity front for a very long time, and Braben et al. still don't go in for huge public presentations on the whole, they've mostly done smaller press presentations of existing features (whereas SC has often previewed future material and spent more time on promises than existing gameplay, if you'll excuse that way of phrasing it.)

In practice the gaming media has raved about ED, and there has been a slow ramp up of attention over the last six months or so. I expect the game will, in the end, sell itself on its results.
 
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Tar Stone

Banned
I can only go by what I've played - out of Elite, Frontier Elite II, and Wing Commander, Elite hands down had the best combat and flight sim feel.

ED captures that and builds on it and it is the single reason I bought into the beta.

The Frontier combat was terrible, and had the most realistic physics.

Star Citizen physics sounded great on paper, but i am actually shocked at how bad the dog fighting looks, its a big whizzing mess.

David Braben has done both types of ship physics in two different titles, the one that is best suited to dogfighting is the one he chose for ED. If he'd went with full unrestricted Newtonian flight I wouldnt have bought it.
 
Backed both games. Played what is available for both games so far - at length. For me, Elite: Dangerous is at the moment much more fun and compelling. When I play ED I feel like I'm hopping into my little spaceship and taking it for a spin. When I play Arena Commander it feels like I'm playing a computer game. I sincerely hope both games go on to achieve greatness.
 
The worst thing in Frontier was the Newtonian physics ruining combat. I Loved the original Elite and wanted to like Frontier but the constant jousting matches were incredibly unfulfilled. Bad enough that I didn't even play First Encounters and was relieved when ED seemed to be going back to it's roots and bringing back a more conventional combat flight model.

If you want newtonian physics just learn to master the ships with flight assist off. I toggle between both modes all the time but mostly for orientation advantage. Not for most of the flying.

I think the current implementation is great but I would prefer upgradeable yaw thrusters. Coming from War Thunder AB with joystick where rudder authority is 2-4x stronger than one would expect. I miss it. Glad there is no bionic zoom or 3rd person behind the ship combat view though :)

I've barely looked at Star Citizen. I tried Wing Commander in the late Amiga port and didn't like it at all. It was bad enough that I figure I will wait for that game to release before I investigate it in depth.
 
If we talk about realism, neither E:D's nor SC's projected future would make sense at all no matter which flight engine, physics model is implemented. The mere idea of piloting a single seated fighter craft in space in the future as such is from a scientific standpoint not going to happen (e.g. thinking about entering and leaving atmosphere..lol). Now having a Newtonian flight model is nice but it is similar to inventing a device to prevent to fall off the edge of our flat earth...The device might work but the boundary conditions for this device are wrong. Meaning it is difficult to argue to have a more realistic flight model in a total fantasy. Both are computer games and taking them as what they are the flight model has to be foremost fun and not a branding or marketing scheme. I baked both but unfortunately I don't have much fun with arena commander due to the imprecise flight characteristics whereas I do have lots of fun with E:D, which is totally subjective and a matter of taste.
 
EDIT: Just wanted to say a "goodbye" to all the fine folks I've met on the forums here. I'm going to find another Elite place to hang out - maybe set up my own. I'll see you out there anyway folks.

Try Reddit, good crowd.
 
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Now, though, I'm not so sure. I've been reading about Star Citizen, and I've discovered that THEY are going with realistic physics. Pure newtonian; no speed limits, act like a REAL spaceship would act. So, Chris Roberts, the absolute guru of atmospheric-physics space sims, is gonna give me exactly what I want while Braben, the out-but-back guru of realistic-physics space sims, has tried to TELL me what I want.

I'm sorry but ships passing each other at 1000 km/s doesn't make for a very good dogfight, it doesn't work. Also, taking that we don't have the "star dreamer" in this version, I'd like to see how long yours or others patience lasts when the ships computer tells you; "Deceleration manoeuvre 4 days to unknown ship rendezvous. Ultra long range weapon system available in 3.9 days 13 hours, 42 mins. Do you wish for tactical stealth engine intercept?"

See the above, that's what real space combat would be about, it's not ED or SC. The fact is, you wouldn't even see your opponent in real space combat, it would be all BVR and really more like a sub sim. So, get real when you start babbling on about "realistic physics space sims", you've not got a clue what 'real' is about. Oh yes, and forget about controlling any of that deceleration burn yourself, your slow human brain wouldn't be able to keep up with the complexities of the adjustments need to perform such a task.

There's your realistic space flight and it's run by computers and advanced A.I. You, little human meat bag ... are simply along for the ride (and in fact, in the way of the ships actual capabilities, you're not really needed). ;)
 
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