General / Off-Topic What's the deal with all these accounts you need? - A Rant

[Polygonal Spaceship]

I'm not new to computing. Maybe that's the problem; I've been using computers since before widespread network access was a thing, and so the machines I grew up with - even my first few Windows machines - didn't need you to log on. Nor did any of the consoles I owned.

A few years ago, I tried - briefly - gaming on Steam. Fair enough, you're spending money, you need to create an account, I suppose. Had a bit of fun on TF2, but otherwise found it unsatisfying, partly due to my machine spec at the time. Gave it up partly due to that, partly due to others' behaviour (which seems to have not markedly worsened since my first online experiences in multiplayer Half-Life, but the tendency to be puerile or a griefer seems to be more widespread), and partly because of a game which simply refused to run unless and until I created an account with another company, which I think was called a U-Play account.

Fast-forward a couple of years. I saw some gameplay footage from some PS4 titles and thought they looked OK. Bought the PS4, and was immediately put off upon getting it home when it insisted that I connect it to the internet (I wasn't really wanting to play multiplayer at that point) and then create a Sony account. Persevered for a bit, but ultimately found it unsatisfying; games with gorgeous graphics, but really very little to do. (Well, very little variety in what to do; lots of missions, lots of story, but also lots of very same-y stuff. Felt grind-y...) Ended up being gifted a copy of Star Wars: Battlefront, which again was the nail in the coffin - first it insisted that I create an account with another company in order to play online (let's not go into the lack of single player content), and then the PS4 told me I couldn't do that because I hadn't paid. PS4 went back in the box and was resold.

Seriously, everyone wants you to make an account now. I kind of miss the days of IRC, when you could pop in to chat under whatever (generally non-persistent) pseudonym you chose; these days, you can't interact with (say) Ed and Sandy on stream, or one of those "twitchy" things, or any of the numerous chats people mention on the ED boards (thing like team speak or discord), without making an account - which, if you're just curious, is annoying as all heck. Even my computer constantly nags me to make a Microsoft account; even my phone, which runs Android, but for some unknown reason is shilling the MS cloud service. Channel 4's on-demand service is doing it now, too; the BBC's doesn't. In fact it bugs the heck out of me that I can confirm to the BBC with one click the fact that I'm old enough to watch mature content, I can watch adult videos online with no check, but YouTube frequently nags me to make an account to view age-restricted content.

Why!? What do consoles and websites have against casual users? Or am I just too old, and too used to not having to log in (which for me has always been something I've only been compelled to do at work, rather than at home), to see the point? It drives me mad, and it's enough to make me want to stop using some sites, systems and services.

 

[relayer]

Because now you are the product.

I started when a 386 was a hot chip (and some work with & other semi-mainframes) and been at it since, so I understand where you're coming from.

A great deal was lost in Eternal September. Notably, the dreams of the WWW and interconnectivity; some grace, some style and a lot of manners. The population shift sent everybody chasing dollars with website creation & consulting fees. We allowed AT&T to get away with $93million Congress gave them to build the infrastructure and then never built it. People didn't care much about the ethos of the tools; they wanted websites because they were "hip." We ceeded control of the web from the architects to the suits, who, as usual, exploited the resource until it is staggering.

Now, everyone wants your email, your information, because they buy and sell it, with no concern for accountability or security. You are the mouse; they are the cheese.

I thought long and hard about buying Elite: Dangerous because of the "must be online" thing. And it really mad me mad to have to register Skyrim online for a dvd in my hand that I paid for. As much as I love Bethesda, if they do that again I probably won't buy their new game (and I am a real fan of the whole Tamriel story and have played it forever).

I have a password I use for sites that demand one, like online forums and etc - NOPASSWORD. I always remember it. Let someone hack into my banal discussions about weird code and graphics. They'll be sorry

keep on o7

 

[Yaffle]

Data. Your data is money to organisations, many of which sell it either directly or indirectly.

You like CoD type games, brace yourself for CoD type game adverts.

Buy a TV on Amazon, brace for TV insurance adverts.

Steam is just the same, an excuse to throw ads for more games at you via its interface or via e-mail.

The only way they get to reliably collect data is to make you have an account, so everyone insists upon an account.

You are being monetised.

 

[Minonian]

And our middle finger to this, to not give out any sensitive information and the use of ad blockers & spam filters. Because?

1, No one likes to be constantly bugged with all kind of neutral and useless trashes whom only his seller think it's worth something.
2, You really don't know how and whom going to use up your informations.
3, The riff raff of the Web. Trolleys.

The problem? A lot of people abuse this kind of secrecy, but in the meanwhile, its the equivalent of the real life right of privacy. So for my part i say it can be only lifted off with a very good reason. But in this case it must be!

 

[Patrick_68000]

Big brother needs to have accounts, on you, all the time

 

[Zak Gordon]

Data. Your data is money to organisations, many of which sell it either directly or indirectly............You are being monetised.

This. Just this.

Well if you want to dig down into the dark underbelly behind the modern era, there is also government level 'push' to gather as much data as possible, so it is not ALL just for pure commercial reasons, they work hand-in-hand and side-by-side.

You can still 'opt out', which is what i do in 95% of cases (i do still occasionally use Amazon, when i just can't find something local that i need, and GOG for games). But maybe in the future we are building right now in our taking part in it, you might no longer be able to opt-out.

NOTE: I'm trying not being 'Political'. Just what is not politics when you dig down into it right?

 

[Polygonal Spaceship]

Now, everyone wants your email, your information, because they buy and sell it, with no concern for accountability or security. You are the mouse; they are the cheese.

I thought long and hard about buying Elite: Dangerous because of the "must be online" thing. And it really mad me mad to have to register Skyrim online for a dvd in my hand that I paid for. As much as I love Bethesda, if they do that again I probably won't buy their new game (and I am a real fan of the whole Tamriel story and have played it forever).

See, I find both of these points objectionable (not your opinion, but the actual facts behind them).

I get that Facebook, for instance, is basically a data harvesting operation selling to advertisers - so I don't use it. But isn't it just pure greed for an organisation like Sony or EA or whoever to say "Right, you've given us your money - but it isn't enough, so we're going to sell you to others"? Doesn't seem ethical at all.

And yes, the DVDs issue. I had a physical copy of Starcraft 2. Accepted (after being told that Battle.net accounts are an anti-cheating measure by a WoW-addicted friend) that I'd have to sign up to play even the single-player end of the game. Got fed up of it. Asked Blizzard to deactivate the key so I could sell the game on, only to be told: "sorry, you can't do that". I can't resell a physical item I own, because in using it just once with its key, I've rendered it useless - the key is spent.

I honestly didn't realise that was a thing until it happened, because to me, a CD key is to verify you're not installing a bootleg. CDs have always, IIRC, been resellable. Heck, there's a thriving market in used games - the high street operations don't shift PC software (because piracy, apparently), but eBay is full of it. So that's the first and last time I will buy anything from Blizzard, even though Overwatch looks fun as heck.

You like CoD type games, brace yourself for CoD type game adverts.

Buy a TV on Amazon, brace for TV insurance adverts.

I've noticed that, even if you don't buy a product, tracking cookies mean you get bombarded with ads. A few months ago, I checked the Cotton Traders (a UK based clothing brand) website for a pair of chinos. They didn't have my size. I was then inundated with ads for that product.

I looked at a product on Amazon which sounded interesting (I think it was a self-published book) and decided I didn't want it. Same thing happened.

Are they trying to bully you into buying too-small trousers or a product which you've already decided is a heap of steaming manure?

I wish I understood why this stuff isn't better regulated, why (as a consumer) you have so little control over your own data, and why the government is so interested in what you do that they want to see your online gaming profile - do they think playing CoD indicates you're a potential terrorist? In some ways I wouldn't mind if it was opt-in, as Facebook is (i.e. you don't have to use it... yet) - the whole gaming thing is a bit spoilt for me by the insistence on "show off your achievements", "here, have a trophy!", stuff that's of no interest or motivation to me.

(On the other hand I do, sort of, get the appeal of things like Roll20 and would happily create a profile there, as I have here. I'm not a total neanderthal; I understand some of the benefits of having one!)

But I think this is why, ultimately, I'd rather log off, grab some mates and dice, and play D&D. (Heaven help the next person who suggests I use "drive-through RPGs" - I have no interest whatsoever in PDFs!)

 

[Arry]

This is something that over the years; is making my blood boil, more and more. I have only ever played two on-line games, Rune-scape and Elite. I have owned a PS1 and 2 and never used them on line. I own an Xbox 360 and I HAVE TO login and update, with my own registration details, just to play a game disk, I paid for and wish to play only in off-line mode. It is wrong, plain and simple; it expects and demands, I have access to the internet, or I can't play my new game and so I have given up with console games completely. Most of them I only have to do the log-in and registration thing, the first time of playing a new game; but it is still wrong and intrusive. I have to have an Xbox account and then a Grid or Need for Speed account, just to enjoy a little me time and race pretend cars. My final straw was getting a new laptop. Just to log in, it will only let me use my outlook email password and I had to create a new email account, just to open my laptop. Now it is trying to force me to use 'the cloud' and ignores my concerns about security etc..

At the same time, the whole thing is trying to get me to use my mobile phone to access all of my computer stuff, through wi-fi and again the cloud. Once again, I don't want to: I don't want my banking passwords accessible to anyone 'tuning in to my phone'; as I walk down the high street and to those who say I am being silly etc.. Why is it when I go to London, my PPI etc. calls and anonymous texts, increase 10 fold? It is because my phone is on-line and being accessed.

The real sad thing is, no government is going to stop it, or even be able to stop it happening.

 

[Yaffle]

But I think this is why, ultimately, I'd rather log off, grab some mates and dice, and play D&D. (Heaven help the next person who suggests I use "drive-through RPGs" - I have no interest whatsoever in PDFs!)

Runequest or Paranoia, please. we're adults here!

 

[Polygonal Spaceship]

Runequest or Paranoia, please. we're adults here!

Only traitors play Runequest, and knowledge of Runequest is only available to ULTRAVIOLET clearance and above. Please report for termination.

(Actually I fancy a bit of classic Traveller. Or maybe Alternity...)

Ah well. I really need to read up on being a serious Linux user. It might mean giving up a few dreams (like playing ED), but...

As for "the cloud" - there's no such thing. It's just somebody else's computer.

 

[Chris Simon]

 

[Polygonal Spaceship]

Yes, I've pointed that one out to my sister, who just bought one the other month... she wasn't amused when, in trying to show her what a bad idea it was to have it listening constantly, I accidentally ordered something off Amazon. I was unceremoniously ushered out of earshot before I could do anything experimental (like: "Alexa, change language to Hebrew" - I have no idea if it works, but it would've been funny if it had).

On the bright side, I think she now password-locks it. Probably for the best, as her husband had installed a module that ties into a takeaway food app - and it would only be a matter of time before my nephew was ordering pizza.

I was disappointed though, it's such a limited system. I asked specifically for UK politics headlines and it starts giving me tech news... Come to think of it, Alexa is not dissimilar to my nephew; he's two, and takes everything he hears as inspiration. For instance, he was picking up random objects and putting them in his toybox - which was annoying, because of things not being where you left them, but I said "At least he hasn't started putting them in the toilet". Five minutes later, there's a shoe in the toilet and he's grinning like a Cheshire cat. So there you have it: AI assistants are at least as dangerous as unsupervised toddlers.

 

[Chris Simon]

Don't be too harsh on that thing. Don't forget that to serve YOU is only its secondary function.

 

[Polygonal Spaceship]

Don't be too harsh on that thing. Don't forget that to serve YOU is only its secondary function.

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about my nephew.

No, seriously... the way that it's going, with our always-connected, instant-gratification culture, and advertising which basically pleads with you to be one of the herd (I buy one or two rare books on eBay a year, and get a daily "handpicked for you" list of deals by email which without fail contains nothing of any interest whatsoever), I'm half-expecting ex-wrestler "Rowdy" Roddy Piper to turn up with a shotgun and Ray-Bans, and declare that he's all out of bubblegum.

 

[Arry]

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about my nephew.

No, seriously... the way that it's going, with our always-connected, instant-gratification culture, and advertising which basically pleads with you to be one of the herd (I buy one or two rare books on eBay a year, and get a daily "handpicked for you" list of deals by email which without fail contains nothing of any interest whatsoever), I'm half-expecting ex-wrestler "Rowdy" Roddy Piper to turn up with a shotgun and Ray-Bans, and declare that he's all out of bubblegum.

....and when you are silly enough to click on the 'was this email helpful to you?' tag. You open yourself up to another 20 intrusive questions.

Where as a simple 'No', would suffice.

 

[Polygonal Spaceship]

....and when you are silly enough to click on the 'was this email helpful to you?' tag. You open yourself up to another 20 intrusive questions.

Where as a simple 'No', would suffice.

I did think about unsubscribing, but to be honest, it's no big deal to just bin them. I only really keep subscribed for the special offers - recently I got a "double your money when you spend up to X amount using PayPal" voucher, and the reduced selling rates are good for when I want to move on a bit of useless junk -- er, valuable memorabilia.

Although I have an entirely separate email address for eBay and PayPal. Partly my own peace of mind, partly because eBay is another tracking-cookie ad spammer. I really don't understand their logic. If my entire eBay purchase history is out-of-print books, what on earth makes them think I want fashions/kitchen appliances/a bicycle? At least other site nag me to buy something I've either decided that I want, or decided that I really have no interest in.

I think, having done some reading, that relayer's post on "the Eternal September" is spot-on. In the last 24 years, the tech has evolved, but the application hasn't (and nor have the manners). People go nuts over emoji, notwithstanding that we were doing that years ago with plaintext; mind you, back then nobody would ever consider sending you a poo. The lofty ideals of the early 90s, and of visions like Douglas Adams's documentary Hyperland, haven't really been realised (apart from Wikipedia) - and even eBay and Amazon, which were good in the late 90s, have devolved into incoherent souks where collectors, shysters and big retailers battle it out.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I find it hard to see the problem, but I'm only 23... So the nastiness of it all I might be oblivious to. Long story short, I don't know anything else.

 

[Arry]

I find it hard to see the problem, but I'm only 23... So the nastiness of it all I might be oblivious to. Long story short, I don't know anything else.

Which is a sad reflection of how this world is forming. You only know this way of things, you only understand that this is NORMAL and yet it is not. It is a form of bullying, temptation and control. If someone stopped you in the street and did this to your face, before you could walk into a shop or go down the high street, you would not take it, but by this form of intrusion happening and becoming more and more acceptable, via the net; it is only a matter of time, before humans take it as acceptable, in all forms of interactions, wherever they may take place.

 

[Polygonal Spaceship]

I find it hard to see the problem, but I'm only 23... So the nastiness of it all I might be oblivious to. Long story short, I don't know anything else.

I guess everyone gets something different from it. And I suppose you've never really been aware of the world without the internet - without being able to connect at school, at the library, at home, on the move.

There's nothing wrong with either viewpoint, and maybe there is no nastiness to it. Just, some of us - I think either due to IT industry knowledge, or age and prior IT experience - are a bit suspicious, and a bit cautious, and remember what the web was like when you could just hop onto a server and make up any old handle, or when advertising was less ubiquitous. I think the only 2 sites I regularly use which are ad-free these days are the BBC, and Wikipedia; the Daily Mail (to pull an example out of thin air) site is pretty much clickbait journalism and advertising.

But then, before the internet, I grew up in a world of computers first being rare, then being isolated offline. Multiplayer needed the other person to be in the same room. It was far-removed from William Gibson's writing, which (to look back at it now) describes cyberspace as being what VR was in the 90s - vector graphics, simple colours and polygons. (Neal Stephenson's cyberspace, at least in Snow Crash, is really more like Second Life. But better.)

It's fine to be comfortable with what you know; you're not wrong But I suspect that if Kim Jong-Un starts a nuclear war and some bright spark decides to set off an EMP over the North Pole, anyone under about 40 is going to get nasty withdrawal symptoms, feel socially isolated, and struggle to remember important things like birthdays and phone numbers. (Seriously, I don't know under 40 who has a diary, an address book, or even a non-smart watch any more. And the ready availability of facts online seems to be eroding human memory, too.)

 

[Zak Gordon]

I find it hard to see the problem, but I'm only 23... So the nastiness of it all I might be oblivious to. Long story short, I don't know anything else.

Yeah. This is the new 'normal'. Basically you (and all your friends) need to smash your smart-phones before they become something that is simply implanted into your children (or your children's children) at birth.

That's the sort of thing we are heading into with all this. And it won't be good overall, for personal freedom and liberty etc. It may sound far-fetched, but it isn't really.

Edit: And just a fyi kinda thing (to anyone that finds this kind of topic interesting) in the Hardware&Technology Section of the forum i'm running a newish thread called 'The Technology what's it good for thread', which will aim to cover this kind of topic in more detail as it expands