Engineers When should experimental effects be applied, and what do the percentual increases mean?

Hi,

when should experimental effects be applied, and what do the percentual increases mean?

For example:

When you increase a value of 100 by 10% in the first step of upgrading something, will in the next step of the upgrade another change by 5% result in a total of 115.5 (which is what I expect) or in only 115?

Same question for the experimental effect: When you apply an experimental effect at some point during upgrading, what happens when you do more upgrading later?

How does this work for values that are decreased?
 
Primary blueprint modifiers are off the base weapon stats. Experimentals are always applied after this.

Order of application doesn't matter in the slightest and every fully upgraded weapon is the same, no matter how you got there.
 
I don't understand what you mean. When I hit the button three times to generate a modification, the stats display shows a bunch of percentages and circles, and apparently, the more the circles are complete, the more complete the modification is.

What are the percentages I got in total after having hit the button those three times (let's say the circles are 1/3 complete)?


BTW, how do I know what the "base shield strength" is when I try to follow https://cmdrs-toolbox.com/guides/shield-mechanics ?
 
The numbers inside the circles are the actual value you got, they are the percentage towards the final value which iirc is shown somewhere outside the circle.
 
Shield strength isn't shown anywhere, or is it? (Like a lot of other things that should be shown but aren't ...)

So IIUC, it doesn't matter at all what is applied when and in which order because all percentages are added up anyway, and the resulting values come together by applying them to the base values of the component. Is that right?

If that's so, then how do we know which effects do add up and which ones don't? Like the corrosive effect of multicannons does not add up when using several of them though it's evident that it would and anyone would assume that it does, and nothing and nobody tells you this. Is there some kind of overview about this?

BTW, what is actually the use for the thermal (incinerating) effect of multicannons? It seems very counterproductive to me to use a multicannon that does thermal damage when I can use only one of those because the effect doesn't stack and a single multicannon doesn't cut it, and for bringing shields down, I seem to be much better off using a beam laser instead which is a weapon designed to do thermal damage to begin with (and doesn't have a fireing delay). And once the shields are down, I rather have the kinetic damage of a non-thermal multicannon.
 
Last edited:
AFAIK corrosive doesn't stack but incendiary does, the advantage of MC over beams is the much longer damage fall off range (3X) have a look at this build https://s.orbis.zone/9obK

Any engineering blueprint you use is a matter of balancing trade offs,
e.g. bi-weave shields +ve faster recharge, -ve higher mass and power draw,
blueprint thermal resistant +ves higher thermal resistance and integrity, -ve reduced kinetic resistance
experimental fast charge +ves faster recharge and regen, -ves all resistances reduced

I don't believe there are "perfect" engineering solutions to ship builds in ED just get a balance that suits your playstyle, I prefer lowish strength + fast recharge thermal resistant shields with a bias towards thermal resistance, but a high capacity lower resistance shield + SCBs will work too it just isn't for me.
 
AFAIK corrosive doesn't stack but incendiary does

This statement is shortened to the point of being misleading.

corrosive is debuff application - it means that when you hit with a weapon, target hit suffers non-stacking penalty to armor hardness - second gun will not be able to apply same effect onto of the first one.

Incendiary shells alters damage profile of the gun it is on. So applying it on the second gun will alter damage profile of that other gun as well.

BTW, what is actually the use for the thermal (incinerating) effect of multicannons? It seems very counterproductive to me to use a multicannon that does thermal damage when I can use only one of those because the effect doesn't stack and a single multicannon doesn't cut it, and for bringing shields down, I seem to be much better off using a beam laser instead which is a weapon designed to do thermal damage to begin with (and doesn't have a fireing delay). And once the shields are down, I rather have the kinetic damage of a non-thermal multicannon.

Incendiary shell is very usefull for all-MC builds among couple others. It turns the MC from kinetic to kinetic-thermal with a very nice 50/50 split between two types. Also FYI Class 4 multicannon does not have firing delay either, and this is where I have seen incendiary shell applied most.

Bonus points, as the fellow above have already mentioned falloffs, there is a handfull of other reasons one may want to use incendiary MC over a beam laser - for example distributor draw - multicannons have minimal draw from the distributor so you can drop pips into engines and shields leaving only one in weapons and still be able to sustain constant fire between reloads. Beams on the other hand, are very power hungry and eat through weapon capacitor very quickly if you don't put more pips into it.
 
@Cemenotar : What you're saying makes sense. I tried a combination of Incendiary and corrosive on my Krait Mark II and wasn't too happy with the result. Then I tried to read up on it and learned that corrisve doesn't stack and also learned that Incendiary basically just gives you thermal. That totally explained the result I was getting, so I figured I shall use one corrsosive multicannon and have the other ones oversized to maximize hull damage after using beam lasers to bring the shields down. That combination currently works great for me. If I become skillful enough not to require gimballed mounts, I might replace the beam lasers with PAs.

@Ceekay : You're right about needing to find the right combination. For example, I tried bi-weave shields and found they don't really work for me. It even took quite a while for me to find the right ship. Of all the ones I tried so far, the DBS is the only ship I don't like, but despite liking all the other ones, it was somehow different when tried the Krait. I felt like home in it right away and it kinda drives like my Mercedes, especially after some engineering. I still do have to try Imperial ships though; in Frontier the Imperial Trader was my favourite ...
 
The Krait range has a "hidden" advantage as it's thruster boost cycle is a lot more efficient i.e. you can run 2.5 pips system, 1 pip engines and 2.5 pips weapons and still boost regularly, add an oversize(or appropriately sized) PD/power plant and you have a very effective weapon system.

A bi-weave/thermal/fast charge shield can be hard the PD systems cap so a class 6 bi-weave running on a class 6 PD can be problematic unless you keep an eye on the PD pip balance, again an area where the Krait and Python score over other ships.

Here's one of my favourite Krait mk 2 builds

 
Yes, I noticed that distributing power to shields and weapons works good, though I keep switching and am trying to get better at it. It makes quite a difference when I can switch full or more power to shields when being hit and switching back to weapons when I'm firing. I don't boost much and it's good to be able to boost when having to run.

If I had bi-weave shields, they would be gone in no time. They can't take much and they would have to recharge like 5 or 10 times as fast as they do before they could make up for it, and then you still need the energy to keep them recharging. Perhaps they are feasible when you have only a single enemy at a time and am able to take it down fast before the shields are gone so you have time to reload before fighting the next one. That is a very limited application, and it means you are much more likely to take hull damage and that you have to run away a lot more to give the shields time to recharge and you have to keep running for repairs most of the time because your shields are gone. "Normal" shields take ages to load, but they allow me to shoot down some enemies before they are gone and to wait after that while I'm picking up the materials. So overall, be-weave shields are basically like not having shields at all.

But that's not what I mean at all. All the medium and large ships I tried are painfully sluggish (and I don't want to use small ships for anything because they are not sufficiently versatile and too brittle for combat). The Python is a bit better with engineered thrusters, but it still flies like a brick going through melasses. I wouldn't use it for combat at all; it takes only a few seconds to get shot down in it because it's so slow to turn that you can't even hit the attacker MOTT. The Python is a freighter, and it remains a freighter. The Anaconda is worse of the same; I left one behind in a shipyard somewhere half a year ago because the insurance is so expensive and a Type-9 has more cargo and is a lot cheaper, and I'll probably just sell it. Even transferring it to my home base or anywhere else is so expensive that I never did it, and I haven't found a use for it.

The Krait is the only ship so far I have been able to do any combat with successfully. And it's only possible with a lot of engineering. I don't know how Elite Dangerous was before there was Engineering, but I think it's not reasonably playable at all without now. It's too limited and no fun without.

They also should invent a new jump drive that gives us a minimum of about 75ly jump range and more for more capable ships. The universe nowadays is a lot bigger than it was in the previous games.
 
Perhaps they are feasible when you have only a single enemy at a time and am able to take it down fast before the shields are gone so you have time to reload before fighting the next one

Technically speaking you can get into such situation sorta in CZ with TV beams - getting your heat vented this hard with beams, means nothing except the guy you are shooting at can resolve you as a target, as long as you keep firing and hitting :)

I don't know how Elite Dangerous was before there was Engineering

Enemies were not engineered :)

All the medium and large ships I tried are painfully sluggish

as far as mobility and agility goes, mediums in particular kind of need those g5 dirty tuned drag drives (maybe drive distributors in handfull of cases) This also improves larges greatly.

That being said I find alliance crusader with barely grade 3 drives, painfully agile xD turns too fast for me.

The Python is a freighter, and it remains a freighter.

Python is a multipurpose ship. It is quite decent fighter when engineered properly. pip management may be a bit more requiring than in other ships tho.

Bi-Weave shields are mostly used afaik in things like undermining/UMing - when well engineered they still have solid EHP buffer and the gameplay for those activities is long chain of small fights, so you want to be able to top off the shields in between.
 
Firing and hitting can be a problem. MOTT, the enemies just fly around me so I can't hit them much. There isn't anything I could do about that because whatever ship I use, it turns only so fast. I just don't understand how the enemies can be so fast; their ships can't be that much faster or turn that much faster.

I've tried to shoot down an Eagle when I dropped into a ring when I wanted to go mining in my Python. I had run because there was no way to hit the Eagle. IIRC, the thrusters were already engineered.

That 'long chain of small fights' to use bi-weave shields still requires you to keep the fights small, as in fighting relatively weak enemies, one at a time, doesn't it? I've tried them in a combat zone and in RES, and found them unsuited for either. I rather wait a bit longer for the remaining shields to recharge than taking damage and then having to wait for as about as long for a recharge without any shields at all. It's also cheaper.

I haven't tried a Crusader yet. I'm much tempted to try a Fer-de-Lance and plan on doing so in a while. For now, I think I'm well off with my Krait after all the engineering because it's a very versatile ship and good while I'm trying to get access to more engineers, get prismatic shields and some guardian stuff.

But who knows what all comes in Odyssey; perhaps it screws up a lot of things.
 
Last edited:
That 'long chain of small fights' to use bi-weave shields still requires you to keep the fights small, as in fighting relatively weak enemies, one at a time, doesn't it?
It all depends on your fighting style and what you're most comfortable with, really, and that's what really matters. Build your ship to fit your style, not the other way around.

My Krait II does wonders with bi-weaves for me, and they're quite beefy with one Heavy Duty and Resistance Augmented boosters for the rest, while still recharging in about a minute and a half. Haven't lost shields in a CZ yet except for those two times where the Spec Ops caught me with my britches down, and that was entirely on me. But it only works for me because I like picking off lone targets on the fringe of a furball rather than charging in and then, if I do manage to get overwhelmed, boost like mad out of there, wait a couple of minutes and then fly back with full shields again. Boom and zoom. With the Krait's magic perma-boost ability, it works a treat for me.

But, and I cannot emphasize it enough, so I'll say it again: What works for you is what you should use, not what works for somebody else. And the only way to find out what works for you is to jump in there and die. A lot. :)

P.S.: The Eagle is the single most agile ship in the game, IMHO, so don't feel bad about not being able to hit it at this point in your career. Its main weakness is that it's largely made of paper, so you only have to get lucky once.

o7.
 
The universe nowadays is a lot bigger than it was in the previous games.

I'd say it's a lot smaller.
At start ships could do 36ly jumps and people had to rely on manual plotting the routes
Now 50-60ly is common, 83 is top and carriers can do 500ly jumps every 20 minutes
 
, it turns only so fast.
it turns faster with FA-off ;)

That 'long chain of small fights' to use bi-weave shields still requires you to keep the fights small, as in fighting relatively weak enemies, one at a time, doesn't it?

depends on the build and flying skill - I have seen vette builds that had very respectable ehp on shields even with bi-weaves! Definitelly worthy RES and total overkill for UM'ing

I haven't tried a Crusader yet

Chieftain and Challenger are it's more popular siblings, all of them have extreme maneuverability, good hull and relatively weak shields. And I bought my crusader to play with the idea of having main ship built in a way to provide support to player in SLF, while being piloted by AI - exploit their aimbot and such. And my quickly hired expert NPC was actually able to avoid quite alot of hits :)
 
I quite like the Crusader but it's a bit of an underdog compared to the Chieftain and the Challenger with lower firepower and agility than the fighter can't quite male up, certainly worth considering as a cheaper option to the Krait mk2 or FGS.

 
Back
Top Bottom