Which Animals do you think have Out of Place Space Requirements?

[-LUCA-]

Probably the biggest surprise about this game to date for me is the recent announcement on polar bear space requirements. After the first adjustment they made in 2019, I thought a second change was not possible. However I was wrong, thanks to a pleasant surprise in the news subforum!

It has been made clear by Frontier that any change is possible at any time. It is never late to submit feedback on old stats.

Now I would like to ask the community this: "Which animals in the game do you think have out of place space requirements compared to the general trend all other animals have?"

There are no limits to the way this question be answered. You can name as many animals as you would like, but please include your reasoning. The definition of space can be anything: "Overall space, land space, water space, climbing space, depth requirement, exhibit size for terrarium animals, anything space related".

I will then compile all answers in the original post and make a meta list like some other threads are doing for which animals the community wants added to the game.

By the way, your feedback doesn't only have to be about animals that you think need a nerf, it can also be about animals that have a minimum requirement (or exhibit size) less than what you think it should be. For instance you can think Indian elephants don't have a high enough space requirement or the glass exhibits are too small for iguanas, etc.

Spoiler: Decrease

Rank	Animal	Votes
1	Jaguar (Climbing Space)	12
2	Nile Monitor, Hippopotamus	11
3	Komodo Dragon	9
4	Small Animals (Aardvark, Pangolin, Caiman, Tortoises, Koala, Red Panda, Capuchin, Lemurs, Otter, Binturong, Macaque, Flamingo, Peafowl, Meerkat)	8
5	Depth Requirement for Deep Diving to be Triggered	7
6	Canids	6
7	Spiders, Insects, Small Frogs	4
8	Shelter Space for Meerkats, Tortoises	3
9	Okapi, Polar Bear	2
10	Rhino, Dhole, Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman, African Elephant	1

Spoiler: Increase

Rank	Animal	Votes
1	Chinese Pangolin (Climbing Space)	13
2	Tigers (Swimming Space)	12
3	Polar Bear (Deep Water Requirement)	10
4	Climbing Space for Clouded Leopard, Sun Bear, Giant Panda and Formosan Black Bear	5
5	Indian Elephant, Himalayan Brown Bear, Green Iguana, Lesser Antillean Iguana	3

 

[-LUCA-]

Here's my own list as benchmark for the template:

Nile Monitor and Komodo Dragon: Both these species have an overkill space requirement, when compared to other animals. In real life zoos both species are usually kept indoors, even if those exhibits are larger than the ones in the game. Because of the current requirements we can't replicate this type of exhibition in the game. I think both need their requirements halved, including water space for the Nile monitor. Normally minimum requirement would be much much lower, but halving it should be enough to make them fit in with the rest of the animals.

Hippopotamus: Compared to other large mammals, their space requirement seems out of place, especially if you have a herd of them. Both the base requirement and requirement for additional animals should be lowered. Additional space for additional animals should probably be reduced drastically, but the base could be lowered by 25-30% and should be enough.

Indian Elephant: In the game they have a space requirement comparable to that of Komodo dragons and far less than other megafauna, which makes them look out of place. They could benefit from a slight increase in habitat space. Elephants are one of the animals most prone to zoochosis.

Exhibit Spiders, Insects, Poison Arrow and Tree Frogs: The current exhibits are too large for them. I hope an exhibit expansion with smaller exhibit sizes will be added to the game.

The Two Iguanas: Even though the current exhibit size meets the minimum requirement in real life, compared to other animals in the game which all have requirements more than minimum, they look out of place. I hope an exhibit expansion will also include a larger exhibit type as well.

Clouded Leopard, Sun Bear, Formosan Black Bear and Jaguar: I think there is a confusion with the climbing space in regards to these animals. The only one out of these four that isn't an arboreal animal, the jaguar, has more climbing space need than the sun and Formosan black bears both of which are true arboreal animals. The jaguar also has the same climbing space need as an arboreal specialist, the clouded leopard, that spends a good portion of its time in trees. They are even more arboreal than leopards. I suggest the jaguar climbing space be halved, Formosan black bear requirement increased to be the same as the sun bear's current requirement, sun bear increased to the jaguar's current requirement and clouded leopard increased a bit more.

 

[FoxyDee]

My biggest problem is that rocks do not count toward space and that animal hitboxes make the total space needed even bigger. So especially for small animals such as aardvarks, their enclosures looks ridiculously big compared to real life enclosures because of said problems.

My suggestion would be to lower requirments a bit for all aniamals (especially the small ones) to compensate for the lost space because of the rocks and animal hitboxes.

 

[Aramar]

Apart from the polar bear, the only animals that really annoy me are the common hippos. Maybe also the Nile monitors.

I understand that the game has some limitations and I'm fine with all other animals, even if they need more space than they have in many zoos (which gets worse due to the traversable are as @FoxyDee has explained).

 

[random goat]

My biggest problem is that rocks do not count toward space and that animal hitboxes make the total space needed even bigger. So especially for small animals such as aardvarks, their enclosures looks ridiculously big compared to real life enclosures because of said problems.

My suggestion would be to lower requirments a bit for all aniamals (especially the small ones) to compensate for the lost space because of the rocks and animal hitboxes.

Oh yes. How many times have we brought this up... I reckon reducing the hitboxes might cause other problems but counting rocks as straversable space shouldn't be that hard, imo. I hope it finally gets adressed one day.

Polar bears and hippos are obviously the most annoying in terms of space requirements. But yes, both big lizards could also need a reduction, given that afaik they can thrive and even reproduce in much smaller enclosures irl.

 

[Fruity Zoo]

Definetly the dhole, I believe you can have up to 25 of them (or 15?? I don't remember)
And one of them needs over 1000 square meters, if you want to build a really good habitat for the maximum size of them, it just can't look good because it needs to be so massive :s

 

[-LUCA-]

Oh yes. How many times have we brought this up... I reckon reducing the hitboxes might cause other problems but counting rocks as straversable space shouldn't be that hard, imo. I hope it finally gets adressed one day.

Polar bears and hippos are obviously the most annoying in terms of space requirements. But yes, both big lizards could also need a reduction, given that afaik they can thrive and even reproduce in much smaller enclosures irl.

After I've collected all data from fellow forum users, I will then compile all information under a feedback thread explaining my points. The focus of that thread will be "what modern institutions follow when providing space for those animals", because I have noticed that the recent reduction in space for the polar bears was determined after analyzing what modern zoos provide for their polar bears. I think this is the best approach in a zoo game to be honest. So I'll be suggesting the same method be used for other animals.

 

[Ursidae]

My biggest complaint would be the need for 4 meter+ water for deep diving animations to be triggered, but that's really not tied to space requirements or animal welfare, so I guess it's really not the concern of this thread, as animals that don't even require deep water still require deep water to activate animations, which makes this issue an animation issue, rather than a space requirement issue.

The animals that are more relevant to this thread would be the following.

Nile Monitor: They can technically be kept in "glass exhibits", perhaps in a larger one than in the game, but I do understand Frontier's decision to make them habitat animals. Like the two giant tortoises they like to roam around and pace their living space a lot. However, a minimum space requirement of almost 400 m2 is criminally high. It is more than most antelope, almost the same as an African buffalo, gray seal or giant otter and just under the space requirement need of the Himalayan brown bear. The fact that the glass exhibits are only 16 m2 and a green iguana can be kept in them, I think 80 m2 land and 20 m2 water requirement would be more than enough for the Nile monitor in the game. Very few zoos will actually allocate 100m2 of space to a monitor lizard, except for Komodo dragons, but considering all other animals in the game have higher space requirements than real life, it would make sense for the game. This way we can still incorporate Nile monitor habitats into Reptile House buildings and make realistic looking zoos.

Komodo Dragon: Definitely the most space hungry of all lizards, but 600m2 is beyond anything any real life zoo can provide for. It is more than what the Himalayan brown bear requires in the game, and almost as much as an Indian Elephant. I feel like a space requirement of 250-300 m2 will still be high enough but manageable in terms of creative design, to be able to incorporate Komodo dragon habitats into indoor complexes, at least to an extent, by making indoor and outdoor sections. Currently, the indoor sections of a Komodo dragon habitat would be too small for them to be spending enough time indoors for guests to see them. Majority of their space would be outdoors with the current stats.

Himalayan Brown Bear: The above examples illustrate how low their space requirement is. The current requirement of 550 m2 is too low, comparably, unless other animals are adjusted first.

Hippopotamus: One hippopotamus currently requires more land space than an Indian elephant, which doesn't make sense at all. 500 m2 of land and 800 m2 of water should be more than enough for the river hippo.

Exhibit Sizes: I think the iguanas are fine, as they tend to bask a lot and roam less, plus they make use of the vertical space, being arboreal lizards. The glass exhibits are 16 m2, so that meets the minimum requirement for green iguana husbandry guidelines. However, I wouldn't mind if they add larger exhibits, as all other animals are given much more space than they need in the game. It would only make sense if the two iguanas also benefited from the same trend. What is lacking, however, is smaller exhibits for invertebrates and small frogs. At the moment it is almost impossible to find them inside the glass exhibits. Therefore, smaller exhibits are a bigger priority than larger ones.

Chinese Pangolin, Aardvark, Dwarf Caiman, and all other small animals: Unless we don't properly decorate their habitats, these guys need much larger habitats than stated in the Zoopedia. For a 180 m2 habitat requirement, you end up building a 300-400 m2 enclosure to compensate for rocks and other decorations. This makes it impossible to incorporate small animal habitats into indoor complexes, let it be Reptile or Nocturnal Houses.

Both Giant Tortoises: They might not be as small but they would definitely benefit from a slight space requirement decrease, for their habitats to be incorporated into Reptile Houses.

The Two Tigers: Swimming space for tigers is a necessity in many countries by law, so they should have a small water requirement like the jaguar.

Sun Bear and Clouded Leopard: They are habitually arboreal animals, thus require much more climbing space than the current requirements.

Formosan Black Bear: Again a habitually arboreal animal, even if not as much as the former two, so could have a slight increase, to perhaps 60 m2.

Jaguar: Not a habitually arboreal animal, so the current requirement is criminally high compared to other climbing animals. Should be halved at the very least.

 

[macronecu]

Here's my own list as benchmark for the template:

Nile Monitor and Komodo Dragon: Both these species have an overkill space requirement, when compared to other animals. In real life zoos both species are usually kept indoors, even if those exhibits are larger than the ones in the game. Because of the current requirements we can't replicate this type of exhibition in the game. I think both need their requirements halved, including water space for the Nile monitor. Normally minimum requirement would be much much lower, but halving it should be enough to make them fit in with the rest of the animals.

Hippopotamus: Compared to other large mammals, their space requirement seems out of place, especially if you have a herd of them. Both the base requirement and requirement for additional animals should be lowered. Additional space for additional animals should probably be reduced drastically, but the base could be lowered by 25-30% and should be enough.

Indian Elephant: In the game they have a space requirement comparable to that of Komodo dragons and far less than other megafauna, which makes them look out of place. They could benefit from a slight increase in habitat space. Elephants are one of the animals most prone to zoochosis.

Exhibit Spiders, Insects, Poison Arrow and Tree Frogs: The current exhibits are too large for them. I hope an exhibit expansion with smaller exhibit sizes will be added to the game.

The Two Iguanas: Even though the current exhibit size meets the minimum requirement in real life, compared to other animals in the game which all have requirements more than minimum, they look out of place. I hope an exhibit expansion will also include a larger exhibit type as well.

Clouded Leopard, Sun Bear, Formosan Black Bear and Jaguar: I think there is a confusion with the climbing space in regards to these animals. The only one out of these four that isn't an arboreal animal, the jaguar, has more climbing space need than the sun and Formosan black bears both of which are true arboreal animals. The jaguar also has the same climbing space need as an arboreal specialist, the clouded leopard, that spends a good portion of its time in trees. They are even more arboreal than leopards. I suggest the jaguar climbing space be halved, Formosan black bear requirement increased to be the same as the sun bear's current requirement, sun bear increased to the jaguar's current requirement and clouded leopard increased a bit more.

My biggest complaint would be the need for 4 meter+ water for deep diving animations to be triggered, but that's really not tied to space requirements or animal welfare, so I guess it's really not the concern of this thread, as animals that don't even require deep water still require deep water to activate animations, which makes this issue an animation issue, rather than a space requirement issue.

The animals that are more relevant to this thread would be the following.

Nile Monitor: They can technically be kept in "glass exhibits", perhaps in a larger one than in the game, but I do understand Frontier's decision to make them habitat animals. Like the two giant tortoises they like to roam around and pace their living space a lot. However, a minimum space requirement of almost 400 m2 is criminally high. It is more than most antelope, almost the same as an African buffalo, gray seal or giant otter and just under the space requirement need of the Himalayan brown bear. The fact that the glass exhibits are only 16 m2 and a green iguana can be kept in them, I think 80 m2 land and 20 m2 water requirement would be more than enough for the Nile monitor in the game. Very few zoos will actually allocate 100m2 of space to a monitor lizard, except for Komodo dragons, but considering all other animals in the game have higher space requirements than real life, it would make sense for the game. This way we can still incorporate Nile monitor habitats into Reptile House buildings and make realistic looking zoos.

Komodo Dragon: Definitely the most space hungry of all lizards, but 600m2 is beyond anything any real life zoo can provide for. It is more than what the Himalayan brown bear requires in the game, and almost as much as an Indian Elephant. I feel like a space requirement of 250-300 m2 will still be high enough but manageable in terms of creative design, to be able to incorporate Komodo dragon habitats into indoor complexes, at least to an extent, by making indoor and outdoor sections. Currently, the indoor sections of a Komodo dragon habitat would be too small for them to be spending enough time indoors for guests to see them. Majority of their space would be outdoors with the current stats.

Himalayan Brown Bear: The above examples illustrate how low their space requirement is. The current requirement of 550 m2 is too low, comparably, unless other animals are adjusted first.

Hippopotamus: One hippopotamus currently requires more land space than an Indian elephant, which doesn't make sense at all. 500 m2 of land and 800 m2 of water should be more than enough for the river hippo.

Exhibit Sizes: I think the iguanas are fine, as they tend to bask a lot and roam less, plus they make use of the vertical space, being arboreal lizards. The glass exhibits are 16 m2, so that meets the minimum requirement for green iguana husbandry guidelines. However, I wouldn't mind if they add larger exhibits, as all other animals are given much more space than they need in the game. It would only make sense if the two iguanas also benefited from the same trend. What is lacking, however, is smaller exhibits for invertebrates and small frogs. At the moment it is almost impossible to find them inside the glass exhibits. Therefore, smaller exhibits are a bigger priority than larger ones.

Chinese Pangolin, Aardvark, Dwarf Caiman, and all other small animals: Unless we don't properly decorate their habitats, these guys need much larger habitats than stated in the Zoopedia. For a 180 m2 habitat requirement, you end up building a 300-400 m2 enclosure to compensate for rocks and other decorations. This makes it impossible to incorporate small animal habitats into indoor complexes, let it be Reptile or Nocturnal Houses.

Both Giant Tortoises: They might not be as small but they would definitely benefit from a slight space requirement decrease, for their habitats to be incorporated into Reptile Houses.

The Two Tigers: Swimming space for tigers is a necessity in many countries by law, so they should have a small water requirement like the jaguar.

Sun Bear and Clouded Leopard: They are habitually arboreal animals, thus require much more climbing space than the current requirements.

Formosan Black Bear: Again a habitually arboreal animal, even if not as much as the former two, so could have a slight increase, to perhaps 60 m2.

Jaguar: Not a habitually arboreal animal, so the current requirement is criminally high compared to other climbing animals. Should be halved at the very least.

I agree with both posts 100%, add my signature to the meta list for those animals!

I might perhaps include the okapi on top of these maybe. More space than an elephant? I don't know. What about the dogs and wolves? More space than elephants? Maybe as a pack, but even for a single one?

 

[MissySanchez]

1. Hippopotamus: Major nerf.
2. Okapi: Slight nerf.
3. All Dogs: Slight nerf.
4. Indian Elephant: Slight buff.
5. Brown Bear: Slight buff.
6. Nile Monitor: Major nerf.
7. Komodo Dragon: Major nerf.
8. Tortoises: Slight nerf.
9. Pangolin, Aardvark, Caiman, Koala, Red Panda, Capuchin Monkey, Lemurs: Slight nerf.
10. Otter, Binturong, Macaque, Peafowl, Flamingo: Slight nerf.
11. Deep diving animation requirement: Major nerf.

I guess this is all. I don't know if I forgot any

 

[sympatrick]

The inconsistent approach towards climbing space requirements is probably what bothers me the most. True arboreal animals of the same "size class" should have a higher climbing space requirement than the ones that are not. The most obvious example is of course the Jaguar. It should not have a climbing space requirement comparable to a Clouded Leopard or Sun Bear. Even an African Leopard wouldn't have as much climbing space need as these two species. The difference between Clouded Leopard and Jaguar climbing space requirements should be comparable to Orangutans and Gorillas.

This is how I would rank the climbing space requirements for the larger bodied species:

Tier 5: Orangutan. Almost exclusively arboreal. Should have the highest climbing space requirement.
Tier 4: Clouded Leopard, Sun Bear, Chimpanzee and Bonobo. True arboreal animals. Should have the second highest climbing space requirement.
Tier 3: Formosan Black Bear and African Leopard (if added). Habitually arboreal but not as arboreal (ecologically) as the other two tiers.
Tier 2: Giant Panda, Jaguar, Gorilla. Will occasionally climb trees, but are not arboreal animals. They spend most of their time on the ground.
Tier 1: Grizzly Bear, Himalayan Brown Bear, Siberian Tiger, Bengal Tiger, Lion. Capable of climbing trees, even if they are not efficient climbers. Adults rarely climb trees.

Assuming Tier 1 animals should have no requirement for climbing space, Tier 2 animals will have the lowest value of the four tiers. If I left out any particular climbing large bodied animal from the roster, please let me know, I'll add them to the tier list.

One more thing worth mentioning is, both Tigers should have a small swimming space requirement.

In terms of habitat space requirement, Hippos and the two Varanids need a reduction the most, but I do agree with the other suggestions.

 

[Aidan635]

Just off the top of my head...

Space requirements that are too big:

• Hippo
• All Canids
• Komodo Dragon
• African Elephant
• Rhino
• Polar Bear

 

[ReptoMin]

The most annoying space related issue for me is the depth requirement for animations, especially for tiny creatures like Cuvier's dwarf caiman that could technically submerge in ankle deep water requiring 4 meter deep water to submerge.

In terms of habitat space, I'd say the most out of place one would be the hippo and Nile monitor, followed by the Komodo dragon.

The current habitat size is not oversized for canid packs, it is actually the standard minimum in terms of husbandry guidelines. But like mentioned here, that value in the game is for 1 animal, and for packs it gets much higher. This is why it probably needs an adjustment. Either additional animal space should be almost zero, or base value lowered.

The inconsistent approach towards climbing space requirements is probably what bothers me the most. True arboreal animals of the same "size class" should have a higher climbing space requirement than the ones that are not. The most obvious example is of course the Jaguar. It should not have a climbing space requirement comparable to a Clouded Leopard or Sun Bear. Even an African Leopard wouldn't have as much climbing space need as these two species. The difference between Clouded Leopard and Jaguar climbing space requirements should be comparable to Orangutans and Gorillas.

This is how I would rank the climbing space requirements for the larger bodied species:

Tier 5: Orangutan. Almost exclusively arboreal. Should have the highest climbing space requirement.
Tier 4: Clouded Leopard, Sun Bear, Chimpanzee and Bonobo. True arboreal animals. Should have the second highest climbing space requirement.
Tier 3: Formosan Black Bear and African Leopard (if added). Habitually arboreal but not as arboreal (ecologically) as the other two tiers.
Tier 2: Giant Panda, Jaguar, Gorilla. Will occasionally climb trees, but are not arboreal animals. They spend most of their time on the ground.
Tier 1: Grizzly Bear, Himalayan Brown Bear, Siberian Tiger, Bengal Tiger, Lion. Capable of climbing trees, even if they are not efficient climbers. Adults rarely climb trees.

Assuming Tier 1 animals should have no requirement for climbing space, Tier 2 animals will have the lowest value of the four tiers. If I left out any particular climbing large bodied animal from the roster, please let me know, I'll add them to the tier list.

One more thing worth mentioning is, both Tigers should have a small swimming space requirement.

In terms of habitat space requirement, Hippos and the two Varanids need a reduction the most, but I do agree with the other suggestions.

Agree that climbing spaces need a revision, they are not very consistent across species at the moment. Nice categorization.
If you were to assign actual values to these tiers, what would you assign?

 

[-LUCA-]

• Polar Bear

Polar bear is getting its space requirement lowered with the upcoming patch. I don't think it'll get a third reduction after that. It will have some 3900 meter square total including water. That'll make it consistent with the rest of the animals I think.

 

[Roxxsmom]

My biggest problem is that rocks do not count toward space and that animal hitboxes make the total space needed even bigger. So especially for small animals such as aardvarks, their enclosures looks ridiculously big compared to real life enclosures because of said problems.

My suggestion would be to lower requirments a bit for all aniamals (especially the small ones) to compensate for the lost space because of the rocks and animal hitboxes.

I wonder if there's a practical limit on how small a habitat size can be in game, given the size of the hit boxes on even smaller animals. Traversable area may be an issue in a well-decorated small habitat, as animals need much more space to navigate between rocks, trees, buildings etc. than they do in real life.

I'm not sure why the hit boxes have to be so large, but I am guessing it might have to do with keeping animals from slipping through the barriers--something many of them do frequently anyway (especially aquatic and juvenile animals of many species).


One beef I have is that the adult chimps cannot traverse a 4 meter wide glass overpass bridge/tunnel. I'm pretty sure a chimp, even a big male, can make it through a tunnel of this size (my lions and bison can), but I had to widen it to 8 meters for it to be traversable for the adult chimps. But the juvie chimps are constantly "walking" through the walls of their chimp house and escaping, so maybe smaller hit boxes are a special problem for this species for some reason.

I also think the minumum diving depth is excessive (as is the depth needed for the fish feeder to work), especially for smaller animals like the dwarf caiman, penguins, and giant otters.

I agree that parts of the habitat covered by rocks, especially when they are traversable by a given species, should count as total area for the animal within the enclosure--at least for species that like having rocky surfaces.

 

[sympatrick]

Agree that climbing spaces need a revision, they are not very consistent across species at the moment. Nice categorization.
If you were to assign actual values to these tiers, what would you assign?

I would take the highest and lowest values currently in the game, which are 120 and 0 square metres and then allocate values for the tiers in between.

Tier 5: Orangutan. Almost exclusively arboreal. Should have the highest climbing space requirement. = 120 m2
Tier 4: Clouded Leopard, Sun Bear, Chimpanzee and Bonobo. True arboreal animals. Should have the second highest climbing space requirement. ≈ 80-100 m2
Tier 3: Formosan Black Bear and African Leopard (if added). Habitually arboreal but not as arboreal (ecologically) as the other two tiers. ≈ 60 m2
Tier 2: Giant Panda, Jaguar, Gorilla. Will occasionally climb trees, but are not arboreal animals. They spend most of their time on the ground. ≈ 40 m2
Tier 1: Grizzly Bear, Himalayan Brown Bear, Siberian Tiger, Bengal Tiger, Lion. Capable of climbing trees, even if they are not efficient climbers. Adults rarely climb trees. = 0 m2

Notice I've identified a range for Tier 4, this is mainly because different species could have different values, for instance 100 m2 for the clouded leopard and 80 m2 for sun bear.

 

[-LUCA-]

Hello everyone,

I have updated the original post with the meta lists. Please let me know if I've missed something. Also please feel free to contribute!

 

[Cool Cats and Kittens]

Thanks for the lists! But I think you put the decrease meta list into the increase spoiler and vice versa.

 

[ralphthestick]

Meerkats. Meerkats were the ones that finally made me turn off welfare in sandbox mode - they look completely lost in a habitat large enough for a decent-sized mob.
Komodo dragons have oversized needs too (exacerbated by their large hitbox), but I felt like I could just about justify them having a big habitat.

 

[-LUCA-]

Thanks for the lists! But I think you put the decrease meta list into the increase spoiler and vice versa.

Oh yeah, sorry my bad and thank you for pointing out!

I was copy pasting the format and apparently messed up.