Powerplay Which faction counters Edmund Mahon (and the growth of Alliance space) the most?

[Serin Vickers]

I'm new to PP and noticed Mahon has been at the top with an insane lead of exploited systems for quite some time. To my limited understanding this comes from his passives and rank bonuses catering to solo-mode traders (who can not be touched by other PPers) and the lack of any Alliance influence countering powers, making fortification easier in the long run from systems being slowly converted with no entropy counter affecting the BGS at all. Perhaps I'm missing anything though.
At any rate this brings me to the following question: If I want to inflict maximum damage to Mahon in the long run, what's the best way to go about this? Which power to join and what to do?

Unrelated to this I also wonder about the following: Do contested systems get both powers' exploitation effects or none? If it's the latter, is there anything of value one can do with such a system in regards to PP or are they essentially dead space - if so, how does the contesting ever untangle?

 

[Martin Schou]

Unrelated to this I also wonder about the following: Do contested systems get both powers' exploitation effects or none? If it's the latter, is there anything of value one can do with such a system in regards to PP or are they essentially dead space - if so, how does the contesting ever untangle?

Neither. They are dead space in terms of PowerPlay, and due to how turmoil works they are almost impossible to get rid of at the current time.

 

[Martin Schou]

I'm new to PP and noticed Mahon has been at the top with an insane lead of exploited systems for quite some time. To my limited understanding this comes from his passives and rank bonuses catering to solo-mode traders (who can not be touched by other PPers) and the lack of any Alliance influence countering powers, making fortification easier in the long run from systems being slowly converted with no entropy counter affecting the BGS at all. Perhaps I'm missing anything though.

No. There's nothing in Mahon space that's worth trading, even with the bonus we get. The only thing that's more profitable in Mahon space than elsewhere for Mahon pledges is mining.

The reason Mahon has grown as large as he has, is that we were very quick to find an optimum strategy for PowerPlay that happened to survive through the few changes in the beginning, along with a highly dedicated player base that were willing to throw lots and lots of time and credits at our goal. Money were almost never made in Mahon space - once you get past rare goods trading (which stops being the most profitable trade once you get into something like a Type-7), money making was either done through trading in other people's space or through working the BGS to our favour.

Additionally we've tried our best to stay out of active conflicts with other powers, and outside of a few flare-ups, we've been been able to do so. This has allowed us to focus on expanding and protecting ourselves rather than spreading ourselves thin by being engaged in conflicts all over the place.

 

[Serin Vickers]

No. There's nothing in Mahon space that's worth trading, even with the bonus we get. The only thing that's more profitable in Mahon space than elsewhere for Mahon pledges is mining.

Thanks for clarifying that. I mostly based my assumption on the findings from this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/357715-BGS-Trading-for-Influence and assumed getting large margins from the rare good profit bonus would make it easier to positively influence the BGS for traders who are moving less than 200 tons of cargo or have multi-hop routes and offload rare goods at stations that otherwise would not see trade.

The reason Mahon has grown as large as he has, is that we were very quick to find an optimum strategy for PowerPlay that happened to survive through the few changes in the beginning, along with a highly dedicated player base that were willing to throw lots and lots of time and credits at our goal. Money were almost never made in Mahon space - once you get past rare goods trading (which stops being the most profitable trade once you get into something like a Type-7), money making was either done through trading in other people's space or through working the BGS to our favour.

Additionally we've tried our best to stay out of active conflicts with other powers, and outside of a few flare-ups, we've been been able to do so. This has allowed us to focus on expanding and protecting ourselves rather than spreading ourselves thin by being engaged in conflicts all over the place.

The reason I made the thread is that so far to me it seems there are no natural predators on top of the bubble to touch Mahon at all.

What I don't quite get after reading up on the mechanics is which of the factions can even potentially harm his space and make it challenging for him to hold in the long run. Mahon reduces Fed and Emp influence while boosting Alliance and Independent so both Feds bordering Mahon space have a harder time flipping systems away from Alliance to increase Mahon's fortification costs while he has an easy time converting to Alliance as both Feds do not impede that. Empire is too far away and Feds are in the way for them but even if they would ever reach up Mahon also penalizes their influence the way he does with the Feds.
The only factions I even see eligible to flip Alliance systems are smuggling ones but nobody smuggles so the BGS impact is neglegible and one can not leverage the non-PP population into passively assisting the cause - that's before considering that piracy isn't a common "profession" either.

I get that Powerplay's immediate results are all about cooridnation and dumping effort onto PP mechanics in certain systems to prepare/expand/undermine/reinforce but the long-term impact of system allegiance changes reducing fortification costs and a lack of counter to Alliance influence gain to me makes it appear Mahon (as only Alliance faction) just has to come out on top (assuming equal inhabitance of space and equal player spread amongst PP-factions, which I know isn't the case).

To me this portion of PP seems flawed and skewed, making competition an uphill struggle due to design bias. Am I getting that part right?

 

[Martin Schou]

What I don't quite get after reading up on the mechanics is which of the factions can even potentially harm his space and make it challenging for him to hold in the long run. Mahon reduces Fed and Emp influence while boosting Alliance and Independent so both Feds bordering Mahon space have a harder time flipping systems away from Alliance to increase Mahon's fortification costs while he has an easy time converting to Alliance as both Feds do not impede that.

Our fortification triggers are not reduced by having Alliance factions in our space, but by having a majority of corporate factions in control. Our triggers are increased by having a majority of Communism, Cooperative, Feudal or Patronage factions in control. The boosting of Alliance and Independent factions over Empire and Federation factions doesn't work - it's supposed to, but extensive and careful testing in our space shows that there is no difference in their influence gains or losses.

Empire is too far away and Feds are in the way for them but even if they would ever reach up Mahon also penalizes their influence the way he does with the Feds.

Again a slight misunderstanding of how the BGS works. If you look at the "stats" page on Mahon's PowerPlay page, you'll see that currently Mahon's space is primarily run by Federation factions (730 Federation systems, vs 8 Empire systems, 406 Alliance systems and 529 Independent systems). We've been working hard to reduce the number of Federation systems in Mahon's space as part of roleplaying Alliance supporters, but doing this without thrashing our triggers can be quite tricky (and results in some frictions internally in the Alliance).

The only factions I even see eligible to flip Alliance systems are smuggling ones but nobody smuggles so the BGS impact is neglegible and one can not leverage the non-PP population into passively assisting the cause - that's before considering that piracy isn't a common "profession" either.

No. Again, moving systems away from Alliance control isn't what's important in terms of affecting our triggers - it's moving them away from corporate control. This is tricky, as corporate factions tend to be favoured in BGS (currently 34% of ALL populated systems are run by corporate factions, regardless of whether they're in PowerPlay space or not.

I get that Powerplay's immediate results are all about cooridnation and dumping effort onto PP mechanics in certain systems to prepare/expand/undermine/reinforce but the long-term impact of system allegiance changes reducing fortification costs and a lack of counter to Alliance influence gain to me makes it appear Mahon (as only Alliance faction) just has to come out on top (assuming equal inhabitance of space and equal player spread amongst PP-factions, which I know isn't the case).

To me this portion of PP seems flawed and skewed, making competition an uphill struggle due to design bias. Am I getting that part right?

PowerPlay is highly flawed, and as a result we're currently stuck in a rather passive phase of it. There's the occasional large turmoil (like Aisling just went through) which results in a few changes of the landscape, and there's long term lasting damage done by people who aren't interested in playing fair (there are ways of hurting powers that are insanely effective as they have no viable counters). There are plenty of ways that Frontier could change some of the mechanics to make PowerPlay far more volatile and dynamic, but currently it's being ignored to an enormous degree.

Now, obviously it's easy to suspect that I'm trying to dissuade you from fighting Mahon, so don't take my words as gospel, and take the time to talk with the other organized powers.

 

[CMDR Soren Andrelheim]

Another important thing to mention are the Alliance BGS player groups like AEDC, AoS and others who throw a lot of effort into bringing Corporate factions into control of systems in Mahon space. That's one big reason we don't get into fights. Other powers would have to fight our BGS efforts, and if AEDC or AoS notice an attack, then we can fight back hard.

 

[withnail]

Additionally we've tried our best to stay out of active conflicts with other powers, and outside of a few flare-ups, we've been been able to do so. This has allowed us to focus on expanding and protecting ourselves rather than spreading ourselves thin by being engaged in conflicts all over the place.

This is why they are No. 1.

It's true all the important stuff happened in the early days though, nowadays it has reached an equilibrium.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

It's worth noting that the Devs have explicitly stated that Power Play was never intended to be fair.

When the system is based upon converting 'exploited' population to a 'currency' of Command Capital, those Powers whose HQs are located in densely packed clusters of highly populous systems are practically untouchable, while those located in remote star clusters or less populated space are supremely vulnerable.

Mahon and Hudson are located near such clusters, but while Mahon used this spatial bonus to secure populous clusters far from their HQ (such as Lave), Hudson got caught in conflicts which lead to weaponized expansions stripping 50% of the Sol cluster's CC from any and all Powers.

The other Powers have done their best to get by, but some Powers are nearly ruined by the spatial placement of their HQ or the population distribution around it.

 

[withnail]

I want to make clear that I agree the alliance have played a good game. They most definitely have.

And yes, they have good starting advantages.

The first 20 or 30 cycles was where the majority of expansion happened. By not getting involved in wider conflicts the alliance got down to some really well thought out expansion. (That was my earlier point).

I wonder what would have happened had the empire done the same and not had the pirate war or fought the feds. It is arguable that they had the largest amount of players at the time.

Or maybe the crowding and distances from HQ always meant it would be this way.

 

[Martin Schou]

I want to make clear that I agree the alliance have played a good game. They most definitely have.

And yes, they have good starting advantages.

The first 20 or 30 cycles was where the majority of expansion happened. By not getting involved in wider conflicts the alliance got down to some really well thought out expansion. (That was my earlier point).

I wonder what would have happened had the empire done the same and not had the pirate war or fought the feds. It is arguable that they had the largest amount of players at the time.

Or maybe the crowding and distances from HQ always meant it would be this way.

Look at it this way:

Control systems:

Alliance: 122
Empire: 265
Federation: 128
Independent: 212

It's not entirely fair to lump the independents together, but in terms of Superpower expanse, the Alliance is the smallest. As such, the Alliance is actually not the relevant target, if you want to fight the biggest Superpower - that's the Empire.

The neat thing about PowerPlay is that there are so many different ways of looking at what it means to be successful.

 

[withnail]

Definitely!

Although a bit harsh to lump Aisling with the rest of the empire, which I think is Noxa's point?

How many individual powers have greater than 100 systems.

(Wasn't there an idea of two alliance powers when it was being planned).

 

[Serin Vickers]

Our fortification triggers are not reduced by having Alliance factions in our space, but by having a majority of corporate factions in control. Our triggers are increased by having a majority of Communism, Cooperative, Feudal or Patronage factions in control. The boosting of Alliance and Independent factions over Empire and Federation factions doesn't work - it's supposed to, but extensive and careful testing in our space shows that there is no difference in their influence gains or losses.

That is very interesting. I had read in a guide linked on top of the forum in the sticky on Powerplay mechanics that getting 50% of exploited systems around the control system to matching superpower allegiance is what affects fortification trigger cost reduction. If this has been changed or had been misunderstood when those guides were written then my entire posts is obviously obsolete. Maybe I also just understood it wrong.
To me the defunct influence bias is somewhat disappointing though. I was hoping PP's "real" puropse is to slowly change the amount of Empire/Fed/Independent systems inside the bubble with help of the PP-faction entropy - I'd have loved that from a roleplaying standpoint. The pure PP gameplay around control/exploitation to me isn't nearly as fun as the idea of shrinking a superpower's official space over time.

Given that Mahon wants Communism, Cooperative, Feudal or Patronage - what do the other factions require? Is there a list somewhere?

Now, obviously it's easy to suspect that I'm trying to dissuade you from fighting Mahon

Don't worry, my jealousy about all those juicy systems in control of Mahon is stronger than any persuasion could ever be.
I'll find a way to claw at Mahon, was just hoping there's a more fun mechanical interaction going on behind it all before I settle on a PP-faction.

 

[Rob At Work]

"There's no one quite like Grandma!"

 

[Martin Schou]

Definitely!

Although a bit harsh to lump Aisling with the rest of the empire, which I think is Noxa's point?

How many individual powers have greater than 100 systems.

(Wasn't there an idea of two alliance powers when it was being planned).

Having 2 Alliance powers would make no sense, given the size of the Alliance at the start of PowerPlay. When PowerPlay started, there were maybe 300 Alliance systems, compared to the 6,000+ systems that the Empire and Federation had each. The notion that the Alliance somehow managed to produce two galactic class politicians from such a small pool is laughable, when the Federation only managed two (three if you include Halsey) and that the Empire only managed four. That's 3,000 and 1,500 systems a piece, yet the Alliance somehow did it with 150 systems? Even today it doesn't make much sense, since the Alliance is still only about 700 systems in total.

The "problem" is that there's no connection between the successes in PowerPlay and what's going on in the galaxy. Mahon's sphere of influence is 1,674 systems, but only 406 of them are Alliance. If expanding into a system via PowerPlay would drag or create an appropriate faction (for Mahon an Alliance corporate for example) in the new control system, it would make much more sense to introduce another Alliance power, because the Alliance would have grown by leaps and bounds beyond what it already has, as would other super powers. It would establish footholds for bgs wars etc., but it would also mean that Aisling and Hudson would either miss out on it (they have no favourable government types in their super power) or be redesigned, and with what we've seen so far, there's no interest in redesigns - only tiny patches that doesn't have big impacts.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

I wonder what would have happened had the empire done the same and not had the pirate war or fought the feds. It is arguable that they had the largest amount of players at the time.

Or maybe the crowding and distances from HQ always meant it would be this way.

All of those wars started due to conflicts over the most profitable expansions. Kalana, Ida Dhor, Xinca, Kwatsu were all either ALD or Aisling expansions that pitted us directly against Federal expansion attempts. Now, back then in those first 20 cycles, most of us had no clue what we were doing and with each Power having at least 4 active expansions, there was not the same team vs team opposition you get concentrated in one system a week that we do these days.

Hell, as far as I was aware, the entire Pegasi Pirate War happened because Patreus and Kumo Crew fought massive prep and expansion wars over a system or two along their shared 'border'. I think in the end Antal snatched it while we were ripping each other apart.

The 'new' profitable expansions near Imperial HQs weren't really discovered until after we realized how much the galaxy map was lying about CC income. Pretty much everything else was expanded into by Cycle 15. Of course, that's when we all started turmoiling each other in snipes and rebuilding.

Of course, the other aspect of Power Play's development is that Mahon was always willing to prepare and expand well over 150Ly from Gateway. Of every other Power, only Aisling has really shown the desire or ability to prepare and expand at those distances.

 

[XanderVekk]

This is why they are No. 1.

It's true all the important stuff happened in the early days though, nowadays it has reached an equilibrium.

That, and the fact that there is only one power in Alliance space. Mahon controls the most systems, but if the Empire had just one or two powers instead of four it wouldn’t be a contest. Add in another Alliance power and suddenly they’re in a more realistic ranking.

Mahon has also been coming in second lately to Lavigny, player activity has the most to do with scoring. And our Emperor’s followers have been really busy making life interesting for Winters and Hudson.

PS AD has been tossed into turmoil twice now, and the fighting between Winters and the Empire has been epic fun lately. If you’re bored, try joining in on that front. Unless you like being ‘green’ and ‘neutral’.

 

[withnail]

Oh don't worry, I've been undermining the blue haired wench too!

 

[Killah_Brew]

I know its likely mute, but does Edmund's trade vouchers result from trades in "Contested" systems?

I have been toiling with finding a decent trade route to exploit just as a change of pace. So far it pretty much sux. LOL but Im going to give it a few more insane futile tries. I can see the potential to become jaded by the broken pieces of the game, eventually. I feel like maybe they had an idea for a game and realized in development they couldn't make it work at that scale but released it while they update it, players made work arounds, Fdev loved the rare Player-game-player interaction and made that the model going forward. So now they intentionally leave things like powerplay as-is, maybe for fear of destroying the player's works, bur also to see if we ever figure out a way to finish what they started. Just a hypothesis.

Also, how can new Edmund pledges best help in PP?
Asnwer: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...he-powerplay-community-for-each-power.542833/

 

[Darrack]

I know its likely mute, but does Edmund's trade vouchers result from trades in "Contested" systems?

I have been toiling with finding a decent trade route to exploit just as a change of pace. So far it pretty much sux. LOL but Im going to give it a few more insane futile tries. I can see the potential to become jaded by the broken pieces of the game, eventually. I feel like maybe they had an idea for a game and realized in development they couldn't make it work at that scale but released it while they update it, players made work arounds, Fdev loved the rare Player-game-player interaction and made that the model going forward. So now they intentionally leave things like powerplay as-is, maybe for fear of destroying the player's works, bur also to see if we ever figure out a way to finish what they started. Just a hypothesis.

Also, how can new Edmund pledges best help in PP?
Asnwer: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...he-powerplay-community-for-each-power.542833/

Not really sure what your asking here?
How to make credits trading?

PP is as immersive as you want it to be, it has flaws but generally is very addictive and you can do it solo or get in contact with the Alliance PP group.
I find PP fun when im in the bubble but then this game has lots to do so you have to balance your time.

O7

 

[DNA-Decay]

Little bit of History in this thread.

Here's a video (part 1 - part 2 wasn't finished, sorry) about the AEDC and the early days of Alliance Power Play:

Source: https://vimeo.com/266404573