Why a Super Massive Black Hole near the center of the Milky Way?

What is the structural relationship between the Super Massive Black Hole at Sgr A* and the rest of the Galaxy? Why is it there? Where did it come from?

It seems like such a obvious question, and very often science articles and scientists themselves get caught up in the details and virtually ignore the larger questions like WHY we see the current structure that we do, as if that was an irrelevant philosophical question, when in fact it's an analytical one. I read an interesting explanation on Quora that fits something I have been wondering about the origin of Globular Clusters for a while now. There is more and more evidence that the milky way galaxy is made up of cannibalized smaller galaxies, and was not formed as we see it now directly from the Big Bang material. And this begs the question, where did the SMBH at the center of the galaxy come from? How do active galactic neuclei shape the galaxy when they contain such a small fraction of the total mass? For one possible explanation read on...


FROM QUORA: Abhijeet Borkar, PhD student in Physics (Astrophysics)Why would there be supermassive black holes (SMBHs) at the centers of galaxies? Why are they there? What is their relation with their host galaxy? How does their presence affect the host galaxy?

These were the questions that were asked when different types of active galactic nuclei (AGN) were discovered. It was discovered that each galaxy that has a bulge in the center, has a SMBH sitting there. It was also discovered that most of the galaxies host SMBH. Some weird relationships were also discovered between the host galaxy and the central SMBH. For example, the [FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]M[FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]B
[FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]H[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]−[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]σ[/FONT][/FONT]relation, the black-hole mass - velocity dispersion relation. These relations are difficult to grasp. Why does a supermassive black hole, which is a teeny-tiny object, the size of a solar system or less, with mass just 0.1% that of the galaxy affect something on the scale of several thousand light years? This is not at all like the solar system. In the solar system, 99% of the mass is in the Sun so it controls the system. But in case of the galaxies, the mass of the SMBH is less then 1% of the bulge mass.

The answer was found to be in the formation of the galaxies. A model, called the hierarchical galaxy formation model, was proposed to explain these relations. The model assumes that the galaxies we see today are formed by merging of the small galaxies. Two smaller gas-rich galaxies come together, colliding with each other, which drives the gas in the interstellar medium towards the center, helping the black holes in the center grow, which in turn gives out massive bursts of energy that affect the whole galaxy. Eventually these galaxies will merge together, and their central black holes will merge into one giant BH which will sit at the center of the new combined galaxy. Repeat this procedure for a few times and you have a large galaxy with a few million solar mass BH sitting in the middle.

But wait, you might wonder, where did the BHs come to be there in those smaller galaxies in the first place?

These come from the smaller, the so called intermediate-mass black holes (IMBH) which sit in the middle of (some of) the dwarf galaxies and globular clusters.
[*]

But where do these IMBH come from?

They, most likely, come from the remnants of the first stars, which were very massive, of the mass of [FONT=MathJax_Main]100[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]M[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]⊙[/FONT], which collapsed into massive black holes, which merge together to form IMBH. They could also have formed from direct collapse of massive nebulae in the very early Universe, forming BHs of the mass[FONT=MathJax_Main]∼[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]10[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]3[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]−[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]10[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]4[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]M[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]⊙[/FONT].

But why are they always in the center?

Because friction.

Due to the gravitational interaction and "collisions" [**], massive objects always end up at the center of the system. This is just the result of kinematics.

So there you go, now you know why there are supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies.
Just to be clear - The existence of SMBH at the centers of galaxies is not a necessary condition, i.e., there is no reason SMBH "should" exist in the centers of all galaxies, but it's just the fact of the matter that majority (but not all) galaxies host a SMBH at their centers.


[*] There are some observational evidences for the IMBHs, but these are not as ubiquitous as the SMBH or stellar mass BHs. There are several reasons behind this, but this isn't the place to talk about them.

[**] yes, the word is in quotes because the stars and BHs don't actually collide head-on, but pass close to each other causing change in speed and direction of their motion
[/FONT]


This explains why Sgr A* is not quite at the center, and also what the Intermediate Mass Black Hole "The Great Annihilator" may have come from. hint: it is the core remnant of another smaller mass galaxy that was absorbed by the Milky Way and may one day merge with Sgr A*.


Anyway, it's just something cool to ponder while on my way to the center of the Galaxy, and doing my first large scale galactic survey. Stuff like this really helps to put what we see in the game in a larger perspective, and helps to keep me in a sense of awe and wonder while in the Black.
 
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Thank you for the informative analysis. I love the subject of black holes. We should have a dedicated thread about the academic side of them. We are all in the process of or have visited Sag A would be nice to know more about them.
 
+Repped.

Confirmation of what I more or less intuitively suspected: massive black hole is at the center because it has eaten a lot!! And won't budge now that is there!!

Also, I imagine from my scarce knowledge on these matters, that if not every galaxy has a black hole, it must have an interaction of stars that create a barycenter with an equivalent powerful gravity to that generated by a massive black hole.

In other words, just an enormous, huge gravity pull can hold the galaxy together. Whatever sits in the center, be it a BH or a group of stars, needs to be hugely massive to muster that pull.

Or, I am completing talking fecal matter here...everything is relative as we know.. ^_^
 
That's confusing part Kancro. The center of mass isn't very massive compared to the rest of the galaxy. Things don't "orbit around it so much as they orbit around the barycenter. Sgr A* is a tiny tiny fraction of the total galactic mass. Compare this to a solar system in which the mass is almost entirely concentrated in the star(s). Obviously the planets will have their velocity shaped by the parent star. But in a galaxy we have the "orbital" velocities of stars seem to vary directly in proportion to the mass of the central blackhole, which is very odd. Now why this happens is an important question as well since the mass of the black hole is far too small to alter the velocity of any distant stars even within the core. However, the reverse could actually be true: the velocity of the stars could be shaping the mass of the Black Hole! When things go faster in orbit, then tend to not fall into the central mass. When their velocity is reduced by friction, then they they can fall into the central mass. This is what the Quora poster was suggesting, that the collisions caused friction between the insterstellar gases and so they collapsed into a BH at the center of the two objects. With each new collision between galaxies, this happens again and again, growing the mass of the black hole by feeding it ISM gases. It also eats stars, but that might not be it's primary diet or source of "mass."
 
Nice thread. I'm a bit of an astrophysics and astronomy enthusiast myself.

I'm not as up on these things as I would care to be, but I remember hearing that the orbital speeds of systems around the Milky Way doesn't seem to add up correctly when compared to the observable and theoretical mass of the Milky Way either. That is (and provided I'm remembering this correctly), stuff at the edges is moving around the center faster than it "should." One (or possibly more) of the BOINC projects my computer crunches for is looking into this as well. This may in part be related to the effects of "dark matter" and/or "dark energy."
 
I am a novice at all this astrophysics stuff, but aren't the concentric orbits of the stars around Sag A* based on the mass of everything inside their orbits, not just the BH itself?
 
+1 Interesting stuff! Dark matter may well have some of the answers here but to what extent is unknown to me. I know it doesn't interact with normal matter that much - a bit like us in game explorers - but like us explorers does it interact with itself more. Or is there sufficient amounts of it, that what does interact is a lot. I've read a few bits on this but i'd be interested to know other peoples theories too!
 
To answer the OP's first question: because I put it there. It was eating everything from the fridge and I couldn't afford it in the house anymore. Thats the last time I take something home as a baby without first understanding how big it'll get when full grown.
 
Nice thread. I'm a bit of an astrophysics and astronomy enthusiast myself.

I'm not as up on these things as I would care to be, but I remember hearing that the orbital speeds of systems around the Milky Way doesn't seem to add up correctly when compared to the observable and theoretical mass of the Milky Way either. That is (and provided I'm remembering this correctly), stuff at the edges is moving around the center faster than it "should." One (or possibly more) of the BOINC projects my computer crunches for is looking into this as well. This may in part be related to the effects of "dark matter" and/or "dark energy."


The SMBH velocity relationship is more about the stars in the central bulge, and orbital velocity difference is more about the rotation rate of stars in the spiral arms. One is related to dark matter in the center (ie the central black hole) and the other is related to dark matter that reaches out to the halo of the galaxy. We don't know what the dark matter is precisely. The dark energy is related to the expansion of the universe and mostly governs the vast spaces in between galaxies.
 
Interesting read.

They could also have formed from direct collapse of massive nebulae in the very early Universe, forming BHs of the mass∼103−104M⊙

That leapt out at me as an oddly tightly constrained mass range. Is there some reason for the mass of those early nebulae (or the mass the BH could capture at least) being just so?
 
Going out on a bit of a limb here (and I don't have the resources at my disposal to test these sort of things, unfortunately), but I have my suspicions that these influences (gravity and dark energy in particular) may be more related than we might think. Either way, the interactions of matter, energy, and space-time is some weird and cool stuff (black holes being one of the more extreme examples), that's for sure.
 
Interesting read.



That leapt out at me as an oddly tightly constrained mass range. Is there some reason for the mass of those early nebulae (or the mass the BH could capture at least) being just so?

With there being more large first generation stars and less stable orbits in the younger and denser universe, I can see the overall potential for black hole formation being relatively common, from nebulae or otherwise.
 
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That leapt out at me as an oddly tightly constrained mass range. Is there some reason for the mass of those early nebulae (or the mass the BH could capture at least) being just so?

At first I thought he meant primordial black holes, but that mass is way too high. I think he is talking about "normal" black hole formation from baryonic matter rather than a soup of high energy density. The mass limits on formation of objects have to do with the outpouring of radiative energy that accompanies such a collapse and prevents it from getting any larger. If you know the initial conditions, which we think we do, you can calculate a mass limit. Not sure why there would be a minimum mass though, unless he is talking about the part where objects were dense enough that inflation would be working against gravity on a local level. In which case you need a certain level of mass just to over come the expansion of the fabric of space-time and collapse into a gravitationally bound celestial object.

- - - Updated - - -

With there being more large first generation stars and less stable orbits in the younger and denser universe, I can see the overall potential for black hole formation being relatively common, from nebulae or otherwise.

That too ;)
 
Here's a great documentary video about this that I found. Most of these kinds of documentaries I find rather annoying with their overall dramatization, hype, and lack of any real educational detail if you know more about these sort of things than the average person would seem to. This video still has some of the hype, but it goes into more details about the whys behind things than most.

An interesting theory illuminated here is that primordial black holes may act as the "seeds" which small early galaxy type systems start to form around. It then also mentions that when these early galaxies merge that their central black holes work their ways back to the core to form even more massive black holes.

Enjoy.

[video=youtube;OyjMcmKeYMo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyjMcmKeYMo[/video]
 
interesting read, ultimately until we can observe stellar phenomenon in more detail we will just never really know will we?! I would imagine that when(if!) mankind gets to 3301 then what we know now about the nature of the universe will be laughed upon much in the way we laugh upon the "Earth is flat" opinions of the past!
 
Is it true there's a spiral arm remnant left over from the collision of the 2 galaxies? I saw an artist rendition with the arm poking out straight up from the Milky Way, and wondered what a great exploration oportunity that would be.

Also: *waves at Thargoids there who "have a great view of our galaxy" as someone at FD once said* :)
 
Is it true there's a spiral arm remnant left over from the collision of the 2 galaxies? I saw an artist rendition with the arm poking out straight up from the Milky Way, and wondered what a great exploration oportunity that would be.

Also: *waves at Thargoids there who "have a great view of our galaxy" as someone at FD once said* :)


Thank you Ziggy! That jutting "spiral arm" remnant might fill in more of the puzzle I have been noodling about the source of Globular Clusters. :D

Btw, was this the pic you meant?

sgr_fig1_web_highres.jpg



The the above pic shows the result of a collision with the Dwarf Galaxy Sagittarius, which also happens to have an "arm" that runs pretty much though Sol system. A convenient ladder to thargoids if there ever was one ;) I find it fascinating that even though the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy has a small amount of visible matter compared to the Milky Way, the Dark Matter in the Dwaf Galaxy is roughly equal in mass to the entire visible matter in the Milky Way!! Which is apparently why a collision with it can alter the spiral structure of the much larger galaxy.


Here is a video of the simulated collision that leads to structure we see today:
[video=youtube;pig-uqRehNM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pig-uqRehNM[/video]
 
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