Horizons Why are there no Coop missions?

[Red Fox Four]

When I play Elite I usually play it with friends.

However the only thing we can do together ends up being bounty hunting. Loads of times I am loading up Elite and my friends in Discord will ask me "Need an escort" cause they want to fly their fighter spaceships or "wanna team up?"... and I don't mind teaming up or having them fly with me.... but they get nothing for it.

Simple fact is:
Doing passenger missions = Solo activity
Doing mining missions = Solo activity
Doing delivery missions = Solo activity
Doing cargo missions (including smuggling) = Solo activity
Heck, even assassination and bounty hunting missions = Solo activity.

Now you might say that, oh but having a friend with you when you do assassination or bounty missions will help you finish them easier and you would be correct.

However... my friend would get exactly NOTHING in terms of rewards for helping me. It's fun to help your friends but getting no rewards for it will eventually turn it into a chore and you rather want to go do something else where you actually get paid.

So why are none of the missions Coop missions...or to keep to the terminology of the game... wing missions?

Why can't the leader of the wing find a coop mission which pays out a reward to all members of the Wing. E.g. an assassination mission where each person in the Wing has to kill same target and will get X credits and Y standing as a reward?

I mean... for crying out loud, we had party based quests in MMO's for years already. Not like there is some great mysterious science behind making a mission apply to everyone in a wing and the reward to be paid out to each member.

Having Coop missions would, at least for my part and that of my friends, make the game tremendously more interesting and fun to play... now, whenever we want to play together Elite is basically not an option... unless we just want to bounty hunt for an hour or two.... instead we team up in other games, such as Vermintide, Space Engineers, Empyrion, Pulsar Lost Colony, 7 Days to Die or even Farming Simulator 17.

Please take some time to implement coop based missions so flying in a Wing in the game is actually rewarding for all members and help make the game fun for those who want to NOT fly solo all the time.

Thanks.

 

[Sanderson]

[EDITED] Seemed a bit harsh.

FD needs much more than just co-op missions to encourage cooperative play, IMO.

 

[Kriidah]

Coop rebalancing is likely a 2.3 thing.

 

[joshman72nd]

friend and you dock at same station. take same mission taddaaaa coop.


(unless your hauling cargo........... this method works wonders for kill x something or go kill mr timmy)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Why are there no Coop missions?

Because FD haven't got around to implementing them yet. Priorities. I would presume they will come eventually.

 

[Robert Maynard]

.... also Solo players (and players in the other modes who don't want to rely on the availability of other players) will need NPC Wingmen to make up the numbers.

 

[Ziljan]

.... also Solo players (and players in the other modes who don't want to rely on the availability of other players) will need NPC Wingmen to make up the numbers.

Yeah, I think this may be hard to balance though. Many difficulty scaling and potential (in)justice considerations. But I agree, there should be NPCs available for multi-crew ships. Especially in Solo mode, or for non-wing mode in Open/PG.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yeah, I think this may be hard to balance though. Many difficulty scaling and potential (in)justice considerations. But I agree, there should be NPCs available for multi-crew ships. Especially in Solo mode, or for non-wing mode in Open/PG.

Or have NPC wing members available for wing missions, but they only stay around for a certain amount of time, like one hour or until the mission is complete so it can't be exploited in anyway, and they get a share of the reward.

 

[Red Fox Four]

.... also Solo players (and players in the other modes who don't want to rely on the availability of other players) will need NPC Wingmen to make up the numbers.

Why would solo players need NPC wingmen to make up the numbers?

Solo players take solo missions (aka missions as they are today)
Wing of players take Wing missions (which are scaled up in reward and difficulty, e.g. the USS sites with strong signal thing which are for wings)

Why would solo players need NPCs?

So solo players can take Wing based missions and lonewolf them? What would be the point of doing that when there are already Solo missions in the game?

Maybe I am just misunderstanding something.

Either way... currently the game is way too solo-focused with very little for players to do if you want to play as a Wing. The only activity has been bounty hunting (optionally combat bonds in conflict zones, but that's pretty much the same as bounties in a RES).

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Why would solo players need NPC wingmen to make up the numbers?

Solo players take solo missions (aka missions as they are today)
Wing of players take Wing missions (which are scaled up in reward and difficulty, e.g. the USS sites with strong signal thing which are for wings)

Why would solo players need NPCs?

So solo players can take Wing based missions and lonewolf them? What would be the point of doing that when there are already Solo missions in the game?

Maybe I am just misunderstanding something.

Either way... currently the game is way too solo-focused with very little for players to do if you want to play as a Wing. The only activity has been bounty hunting (optionally combat bonds in conflict zones, but that's pretty much the same as bounties in a RES).

What happens when you open up the mission board to see only wing missions? That will be the reason to have NPC wing members for that mission. Basically if you get wing specific missions and no NPC wingmen, you will vastly reducing the amount of missions available to people that play solo or on their own.

That's why I think the best way to go is to have certain types of missions shareable with your wing, and then have the rewards shared depending on rank.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Why would solo players need NPC wingmen to make up the numbers?

Solo players take solo missions (aka missions as they are today)
Wing of players take Wing missions (which are scaled up in reward and difficulty, e.g. the USS sites with strong signal thing which are for wings)

Why would solo players need NPCs?

So solo players can take Wing based missions and lonewolf them? What would be the point of doing that when there are already Solo missions in the game?

Maybe I am just misunderstanding something.

Either way... currently the game is way too solo-focused with very little for players to do if you want to play as a Wing. The only activity has been bounty hunting (optionally combat bonds in conflict zones, but that's pretty much the same as bounties in a RES).

NPC Wingmen form part of the DDF as they were discussed as a potential feature of the game.

Why not permit players who won't / can't Wing up with other players to do so with NPCs?

Interestingly, we got NPC pilots for SLFs before players are able to take on the role....

.... and the game requires to be able to be played by one player - as it has contained a Solo mode in the design / implementation from the outset.

 

[Red Fox Four]

What happens when you open up the mission board to see only wing missions? That will be the reason to have NPC wing members for that mission. Basically if you get wing specific missions and no NPC wingmen, you will vastly reducing the amount of missions available to people that play solo or on their own.

That's why I think the best way to go is to have certain types of missions shareable with your wing, and then have the rewards shared depending on rank.

Simple.

Add a wings bulletin board.

You have Solo missions board.
You have Passenger missions board.
So you add a Wings bulletin board.

That way there's no change whatsoever in the solo missions or passenger missions, but you get an added board to be perused by players who are flying in a Wing and looking for a bigger challenge.

To add to this... the wing leader is the only one who can accept and turn in the missions. Rewards apply to all wing members however when being completed. Rewards are the same and fixed for each wing member, i.e. no doing mission with full Wing then booting other 3 and get a larger reward as Wing leader.

I honestly don't see how this would be a difficult concept.

Simple setup and consistent with how the boards look and are used today, and allows players who want to fly in wings to do so with an extra layer of challenge which will require better teamwork, e.g. covering eachother, using voice comms etc.

 

[Sylow]

What happens when you open up the mission board to see only wing missions? That will be the reason to have NPC wing members for that mission. Basically if you get wing specific missions and no NPC wingmen, you will vastly reducing the amount of missions available to people that play solo or on their own.

That's why I think the best way to go is to have certain types of missions shareable with your wing, and then have the rewards shared depending on rank.

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Actually the game is just getting a filtering function for missions anyway. If you can't do the Mission (e.g. lack of cargo space, etc), you in the future won't even see it. I have my doubts that this is a good idea, as it eliminates incentives for people to try other playstyles, but alas, that's what is just coming. So if we get filtering anyways, i see no reason at all that people would get a different set of missions displayed, depending if they are in wing or not.
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In contrast, if the filtering does -not- come (which i would consider the better idea), i still don't see a problem. Just like you at the moment can see missions as unavailable due to lacking cargospace, a SRV or simply not being at good enough standing, there then would be some more missions which would be listed as unavailable as the Minimum wing size is not met.
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I really see no big problem here.
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NPC Wingmen form part of the DDF as they were discussed as a potential feature of the game.

Why not permit players who won't / can't Wing up with other players to do so with NPCs?

Interestingly, we got NPC pilots for SLFs before players are able to take on the role....

.... and the game requires to be able to be played by one player - as it has contained a Solo mode in the design / implementation from the outset.

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As described, if it's just one more kind of mission in the "not available" section, it should be no issue for the solo player. It's really not about providing content which is only available in group. Group missions should be the very same thing as missions at the moment, with just a few adjustments:
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- They are handed out when enough people are in the wing. If the requirement is not met, they are not available.
- Payment is "per player", so if a mission pays 25 credits (or perhaps a little more) and requires "at least two pilots", each pilot in the end will get full payment when the mission is complete, no splitting of the payment.
- The only important thing would be that there's a check of who is present when a mission is completed. (E.g. when you have to assassinate a target, only those who are within 10 km or so of the target when it dies get the "Mission complete" update. ) This would prevent the possible exploit of groups picking up many missions and then splitting up to complete them seperately.
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As long as the difficulty is scaled based on the required minimum wing size of the mission and the payout is similar to a single player mission, there is no actual drawback for the solo player, while finally providing content for the group player.
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As a sidenote, i'd also love it the bounty hunting reward system would be somehow reworked. The current combination of "last one to hit gets all" and "when in wing, the payout is split" is contraproductive. The first one pushes people into solo when RES hunting, the second one results in hunting in group to yield lower payouts than hunting solo. (Yes, you can -kill- faster in a wing, but the organisatory overhead when hunting in a wing by far outweights this advantage, leaving the players in wing with a lower payout per time than those flying solo. )
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[fruitbat]

I would love co-op missions. would be a great addition imo.

 

[Robert Maynard]

As described, if it's just one more kind of mission in the "not available" section, it should be no issue for the solo player. It's really not about providing content which is only available in group. Group missions should be the very same thing as missions at the moment, with just a few adjustments:

Just as missions themselves are no longer rank locked, rather rank advised, I would not expect that missions available for Wings would be locked to Wings, rather advised for Wings.

 

[KING5TON]

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As a sidenote, i'd also love it the bounty hunting reward system would be somehow reworked. The current combination of "last one to hit gets all" and "when in wing, the payout is split" is contraproductive. The first one pushes people into solo when RES hunting, the second one results in hunting in group to yield lower payouts than hunting solo. (Yes, you can -kill- faster in a wing, but the organisatory overhead when hunting in a wing by far outweights this advantage, leaving the players in wing with a lower payout per time than those flying solo. )
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Here Here.
Just posted something similar in another thread.
Playing in a wing to have fun means you earn less money than if you played solo.
Why do I need to make a choice between more fun or more money, FD should scale things better so that I can play in a wing and earn similar to playing solo?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Here Here.
Just posted something similar in another thread.
Playing in a wing to have fun means you earn less money than if you played solo.
Why do I need to make a choice between more fun or more money, FD should scale things better so that I can play in a wing and earn similar to playing solo?

It's the same money split between more participants, presumably due the risk reduction effect of increased numbers.

 

[Heater]

Would be a nightmare to keep them in the same instance....(their netcode has issues now let alone adding this to it)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Simple.

Add a wings bulletin board.

You have Solo missions board.
You have Passenger missions board.
So you add a Wings bulletin board.

That way there's no change whatsoever in the solo missions or passenger missions, but you get an added board to be perused by players who are flying in a Wing and looking for a bigger challenge.

To add to this... the wing leader is the only one who can accept and turn in the missions. Rewards apply to all wing members however when being completed. Rewards are the same and fixed for each wing member, i.e. no doing mission with full Wing then booting other 3 and get a larger reward as Wing leader.

I honestly don't see how this would be a difficult concept.

Simple setup and consistent with how the boards look and are used today, and allows players who want to fly in wings to do so with an extra layer of challenge which will require better teamwork, e.g. covering eachother, using voice comms etc.

I would prefer shareable missions. Make missions wing advisable the ones that can be shared by the wing leader, but not make it mandatory for poeple who want a challenge.

The reason why is that I would like more places to get missions anyway. Have a bulletin board for your basic A-B missions from companies that are not tied to the factions, but comtribute to the BGS state.

In contacts area you get the Law Enforcement Contact, where you give in your bounties and get bounty hunting missions and certain passenger missions, such as prisoner exchange, which are tied to the BGS state and rep for the faction in power.

Faction Contacts where you get all of your faction specific missions and passengers, and cash in your combat bonds to the relevant faction.

Underground contact for all of the illegal missions, such as smuggling and assasination and transportation of wanted or illegal passengers.

This will give a lot of mission options with the bonus of sharing some missions with your wing such as sharing a prisoner exchange mission where you can share it with your wing members and have them as wing support for protection.

NPC wings for missions would be great.

I also think that the filtering is to do with the rep you have with the factions not the cargo space. I haven't seen anything official about it yet though, so I may be wrong.

 

[Sylow]

Just as missions themselves are no longer rank locked, rather rank advised, I would not expect that missions available for Wings would be locked to Wings, rather advised for Wings.

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So because it -might- be implemented similarily to what we have with ranks, it is a bad idea? Mind you, even if it is implemented the way you describe it, it would not break things. Just ponder how i described it:
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- Difficulty scaled on proposed wing size. So even if a mission is only advised to be for four players, it could perhaps be taken by one player. But he would have to be really good to finish this mission. Also note the positive: those who currently go around and proclaim that everything is way too easy, perhaps they could find the challenge there?
- Payment is done per pilot. So even if a very good pilot would take a mission designed for a wing of four and complete it, he would only get the payment for one of the four pilots. It would not be a new way to fast cash, but rather would be slower (due to higher difficulty) than comparative solo missions.
(- The part about "have to be present at mission completion" does not matter for the solo player scenario, but is important to prevent abuse by several people soloing different wing missions and then cashing in alltogether. )
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So even if the missions would only be "advised for a full wing" and a single player would complete it, i couldn't see a drawback. It would still be a "everybody wins" situation. (Oki, those who can't read the warning that the mission is difficult and designed for a full wing might loose. But they might learn to read the mission text, which again is a win. )
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It's the same money split between more participants, presumably due the risk reduction effect of increased numbers.

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That's a theoretical justification. But i think what we currently have just goes too far. Why have a multiplayer option at all, if -any- money making activity in game incentivises solo play? This really is a problem for me, i started this game together with friends, some more were waiting for our feedback. They were not so much interested in spaceship simulation, but the selling point for them would've been how enjoyable the game would be in coop. (Same feedback from them for Mechwarrior 5, along the lines "the video looks fine, now we have to see if it'll have a coop, if yes we will buy it." ) So the result was quite predictable, when we had to tell them that the game essentially at best "allows" playing in group, and in many cases punishes it.
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I fear that by now it's too late, those of my friends who bought the game by now abandoned it again (2.1 drove away the last of them) and it's unlikely that i could persuade any of the others to give it a try, but if there'd be a big "Wings, but now really and not pseudo any more" upgrade, so group play would be supported and encouraged, i might still manage to get them to fly with me.
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Hope dies slowly, i know...
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Would be a nightmare to keep them in the same instance....(their netcode has issues now let alone adding this to it)

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Now yes, that's also a prequisite for actually good group play, that they finally get their netcode under control. But while i don't have people any more to play with, so i couldn't tell if the netcode improved, at least the patch notes for the beta claim that they did some improvements there. Time will tell if it's true of just a line of random characters in a patch notes file.
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