I’ll use italic-non-bold (like this sentence) for my comments, bold for concerns arising from legs
, plain text quoting solutions presented.
I’m not going to cite quotes with accreditation, so as not to turn this into a transcript and thus encourage freedom of speech. I will, however,
drop as much rep on contributors to this thread as the forum will allow me to, I may run out of rep, or not be permitted to repeatedly rep more active participants in this discussion, but I’ll do my best.
“What does it matter? If the pro and anti space-legs members disagree?
We aren't the ones who decide, rightly.”
While technically speaking there is an existential truth to your comments there… However, I have also seen comments from FDev where they have said legs are coming – sometime, albeit a long way in the future, and I have seen them sat they have taken note of some of the suggestions in this very forum. 3.0’s crime and punishment system, for better or worse, started as a seed sown here.
So It would be my hope that if we debate it properly, we can find a way of having legs in game for those who want the game to expand in that direction yet their arrival does not trod on the toes of people who have expressly stated they do not want legs, ever.
So while it doesn’t necessarily matter if we all agree on this, as long as the compromises are acceptable to the overall majority
“As long as I can ignore them completely and never have to utilise or interact using them...”
“I don't think any of that will happen. If Space legs does come out it will be a paid for expansion and will be optional.”
“it does seem an awful waste of development time for something that either is just graphical time-wasting (talking to a patron rather than selecting from the mission board)” is tied to a similar concern, “Are people really keen to see another meaningless, bolt-on feature?”
“I also suspect it won't be around for some time and FDev will have plenty of time to upgrade the base game to make it as good as they can.”
“there will be different options which people may want to explore. Is that so wrong?”
It's not a case of not seeing its validity, its a case for wanting the game to be unborked before they implement it.
You know what, speaking personally here (hence the italics) I can agree with that
I think we reached new lvl here, there are three topics going simultaneously on the first page about space legs with same ppl posting same things. And per usuall no one will convince anybody to his/her opinion.
Seriously...
I know that, I just hope we can find some common middle ground ;-)
“Not overly bothered about them even though I don’t see the point of them in a game about flying spaceships.” and “Not overly bothered about them even though I don’t see the point of them in a game about flying spaceships.”
I and no doubt others applaud both of those comments live and let live attitude to legs, but as a gentle reminder, this game is about simulating the galaxy in humanities future.
“I'm in favour of space legs, I think its the natural progression for the game. While some of the detractors are completely valid thinking otherwise, I think some others see Elite as their current team play space shoot-em-up, and anything that isn't directly supporting that viewpoint is bad for their game.”
The same post’s next sentence very eloquent, stating that “the game has always been about Adventure and freedom of choices, and yes, immersion in the Elite universe. Scooting back to my waiting ship in the SRV after raiding data from a planetary base is a great start, but going beyond that, eventually into buildings to meet undercover contacts, or sabotaging a base, or investigating a spooky derelict ship is the direction I feel the game should naturally go. Push the envelope, develop the frontiers.
“Space legs can be implimented in one of three ways: A way which is interesting and useful and fun. I think almsot everyone can get behind this. A way which is just filler but is optional. This is fine, I mean I have been known to get up and walk around my cockpit in VR so I understand the appeal. immersion is a good thing. A way which is just filler and mandatory. This is what the anti-space legs group wants to avoid.”
Nobody, on either side want the last option, and yes given “frontiers form” we can all agree that last one is a concern.
“IF there was a way to make each environment unique, that may be interesting, but I suspect that would be a massive amount of code. I'd rather see the ability to own and operate a starport or carrier.”
“Fleet Carriers” are coming, player (group?) owned stations would be a logical progression from there, starports have different interiors in the docking barrel associated with their economy type, I see no reason that shouldn’t apply to other parts of the starports. With more “skins” for sections of interior and a bit of procedural generation, individual starports could conceivably have a very unique feel.
“…the Pro-space legs community have yet to deliver an solid points on what to do with it other than space sims in stations and basic EVA. “
“I can also see it coming out in stages too, with things such as ship repairs (with some tweaks to the AFMU and repair limpets), EVA and search ship wrecks (with maybe some obstacles in there) for mission rewards and for anything else you can loot. These could be more lucrative with it being another way to get hold of rare materials instead of the usual way. Scavange for parts for repairs etc. Maybe even have base infiltration and acquire missions. Basically to begin with make them purly mission based. Then Fdev can expand from there. As to what to do with space stations, I have said this a number of times. Keep the basic BB and commodities market for in the ship, it stays the same and you can get contracts/missions there as you do now.
But when you go to the actual faction headquarters it could open up a number of different options such as negotiation over rewards (you're looking for a specific material reward, go and talk to the guy). There could be station only based missions to infiltrate or spy on someone which then could lead to space based activities.Going to the commodity sellers direct could get you favourable rates as there is more competition from the sellers.Have it that it opens up options, but not necessarily needed to play the game. Similar to Horizons. Horizons opens up options, but you don't need it to play the game. But I can see this coming in stages and not in one big update.”
Someone else suggested adding even more to the game in differing interconnected layers:
“ED Space Legs, based in stations and maybe on ships, your actions affect the BGS and story line across all platforms. Make your way across the universe as passenger on transport ships, take missions for assassinations (as per the current game), be a data broker and transport the secret rebel plans, engage pirates at a pirate outpost with lots of 1st person perspective pew pew. Go EVA as part of "Rescue One" in game (the NPC rescue ships) and salvage things from ships.
ED Base commander, allowing you to have a strategic game, aligned with the "tick" that lets you manage base resources, skimmers, missions etc, the effects of whicyh might be visible to players in ED Space Legs and ED base commander. Start with a tiny planetary non dockable base and get promoted up to station commander on a coriolis or maybe an installation? Effectively being the C&C behind NPC traffic and actions - invest heavily to improve system security, or deal with bust/boom/outbreak etc? If it's a refinery, manage the offloading of refined resources vis the NPC's - effectively a resource building/strategy game”
And of course there was comments about FPS, and alternatives to becoming just another shooter game associated with it:
“bring a First Person Shooting game into the mix, as well as a way to interact with things on planets...it could add interesting types of missions (assassinate NPC X in the city of X) I can also see where players can utilize different 'things' to create new game content.Yes, it will definitely be a game changer...but we bought a game that was designed to change and grow, within the original design intents”
“What about space legs but just for ships where wingmen can join yo ship and walk around adding more to the crew thing. Have more way to interact with your ship while lets say supercruising to a destination. Idk play poker turn on the radio get drunk sit down on a comfortable couch watch galnet news give a little life to the ship since it's what you spent all the time in. I can see why space legs outside of this context would not be beneficial since the game was not build around that kind of gameplay. It just need a i little more variety like horizons did”
I fail to undertand why people would think something like this would be released without any gameplay.”
“In FFE one of the earlier main storyline missions had your cmdr parked on an atmospheric planet by a certain time and date, where it was assumed your pilot got out of the ship to attend the "
Jjagged Banner" concert where he supposedly got a music 'dreamware' holodisc to enter the "Wiccan Ware" race or somesuch. Just an example where Frontier even back then, had sights on spacelegs gameplay which could be considered a long term 30+ year plan.”
But this was approach to things was deftly quelled by someone who stated later on in the thread that they were in principle “all for this feature but looking at the current practicalities with the existing state of ED and FDev I cannot see this being done at any foreseeable point in the future.”
“Other games have tried it, other games have failed. The most common example is EvE. Very few players used the Captains Room feature. FD cannot afford to devote so much effort to Space Legs and have no one use.” And: “How “would 'space legs' work with: Wings, Powerplay, C&P, instancing?”
“Wings - You invite friends to a group (Wing); you pick up missions from a Job Board (procedural missions) or NPC (more tailored missions). You go to your ships. You fly to your destination. Or, you pick up a mission, you go to your destination in the station and you complete your mission (perhaps there's a terrorist/hostage situation?). Nothing changes here with how wings work. Just the word Wings becomes superfluous; just calling them "Groups" would have been better.
PowerPlay - They don't even need to be connected to each other at all TBH. Bet there's a lot of things one could do on foot to assist with PP. Perhaps Aisling and Felicia want control of a system, then you could have a group of Aisling and Felicia aligned players fighting over a military installation of significant importance in that system? Both in the sky above, and inside the building itself. ... actually, that sounds really awesome, lol.
C&P - One reason why I felt locking crimes to ships was a poor decision with monumentally short-sighted design.
Instancing - Same way it works at the moment I guess.”
Personal note, I agree that the idea of powerplay battles happening on the ground, in the sky, and in the void above it all at the same time does sound pretty awesome” but a potentially more sage and insightful stance was
“What compromise? Some people want it, some not, others think they can't pull it off. I'm in last category. No compromise needed. All that awaits me is surprise when they pull it off. No hype. No dreaming. No . I like it that way.”optimistically suggested by someone else: “I don't see the need for a FPS where the S stands for SHOOTER.
We should just be able to walk around planets, stations and ship.
When talking about contents, there's a lot of stuff that can be introduced adding interesting contents without completely change the game.
> Exploration would benefit... get off the SRV and walk around to collect samples or analyze the planet soil/ice (just add a suit and some suit module).
> Survival... when off the SRV and SHIP you are more exposed to pressure and temperature values that can be deadly (add kind of countdown with life values).
> Mining on planets... Get off, analyze the rocks and place manually charges in the key points (re-use planned mechanics for mining 2.0 but with 1st person instead of limpets)
> New career: Spionage... Enter military/secret bases/abandoned ships/capital ships to steal data from computers or projects blueprint using some tool to hack the security system and access to secret rooms (bases 3d models, new game mechanics to hack systems).
> Thargoids... Explore alien bases to find more clues about their presence and their strategic objectives (same as spionage but with thargoids bases)
> Immersion: by walking through space ports, inside your ship, meeting your passengers in the cabin (new 3d models for rooms and ships, add NPC and players interaction)
> New game style: Ship Mechanic. If you're an explorer and you don't have enough space for AFMU or Repair Limpet you can access to the damaged component of the ship to partially repair it (add some interactive panel in the ship to access to some mechanical/electrical box and play some puzzle/mini game).
And so on...
These would require some job of course, probably 1 year of development for the legs alone plus another year for the other features but it's not a complete new game and it's not rocket science.... Anyway I don't expect it to be a free DLC and it doesn't need to be realeased all at once.”
But more
Anyway, I bought a seated first person spaceship game, and have been playing it for almost 4 years now, and happy with what I got.
Contrasts nicely to
It is space commander life sim. It tries to mimick flow of the life of space commander.
Collectively those quotes show why the forum will never be quorate on legs. But they are going to comeone day, Braben has said it too many times on camera not to add them. Yes they will take a ton ofresources, but the company is going from strength to strength, so I suspect that in time, for better or worse, wisely or foolishly, some of those other franchises in the frontier portfolio will subsidise the development of legs.
I imagine you could also choose walky transitions between cockpit and SRV or the current black screen switch transitions. I also imagine you could interact from the cockpit or take a wander around the station to the various offices as takes your fancy. I imagine, like the SRV there would be some Walky only content but, again like the SRV it would be mostly unneeded... There might be a few new engineers that require legs to reach (like engineers that require planetary landings) but I suspect they would be fringe cases. Remember though, that the interior of the Anaconda has been modelled to walk around. DB himself said that, for example, the cargo bay has been animated and it's likely that at some point you could watch the loading and unloading as you can the outfitting...It might be possible that a new, deeper black market could be accessible to those who get the space legs expansion. Dealing with shady characters off the grid and out of sight for better prices but at risk of being riddled with holes. There might be some multicrew tasks that benefit from walking, like ship repairs or something. who knows...
First person all the way, no cheating external camera to save you from the trauma of having to expose yourself to fire to see what's going on round that corner.
“space legs would effectively be a new game.” And ”I'm very much against turning a game about flying spaceships into another first person shooter (of which there are at least a grillion titles on the market)”
In my opinion Space Legs don't need to be a completely new game. I don't see the need for a FPS where the S stands for SHOOTER.
We should just be able to walk around planets, stations and ship.
When talking about contents, there's a lot of stuff that can be introduced adding interesting contents without completely change the game.
> Exploration would benefit... get off the SRV and walk around to collect samples or analyze the planet soil/ice (just add a suit and some suit module).
> Survival... when off the SRV and SHIP you are more exposed to pressure and temperature values that can be deadly (add kind of countdown with life values).
> Mining on planets... Get off, analyze the rocks and place manually charges in the key points (re-use planned mechanics for mining 2.0 but with 1st person instead of limpets)
> New career: Spionage... Enter military/secret bases/abandoned ships/capital ships to steal data from computers or projects blueprint using some tool to hack the security system and access to secret rooms (bases 3d models, new game mechanics to hack systems).
> Thargoids... Explore alien bases to find more clues about their presence and their strategic objectives (same as spionage but with thargoids bases)
> Immersion: by walking through space ports, inside your ship, meeting your passengers in the cabin (new 3d models for rooms and ships, add NPC and players interaction)
> New game style: Ship Mechanic. If you're an explorer and you don't have enough space for AFMU or Repair Limpet you can access to the damaged component of the ship to partially repair it (add some interactive panel in the ship to access to some mechanical/electrical box and play some puzzle/mini game).
And so on...
These would require some job of course, probably 1 year of development for the legs alone plus another year for the other features but it's not a complete new game and it's not rocket science.... Anyway I don't expect it to be a free DLC and it doesn't need to be realeased all at once.
Those three quotes would dovetail into a very immersive and exciting game experience, but not everyone shares that optimism;
""Legs" has nothing to do with the existing core gameplay loop(s) that are all done from the ship. I feel like Frontier's time, money, and resources would be better spent improving those instead of adding another feature.
Tough question to answer, butthat person elaborated on their post explaining just how much work would have to go into making space legs right, and how many potential pitfalls there are to getting it wrong.
So back to the opening posts main question "Can we compromise?" I don't know if, after reading this thread, "compromise" is the right term anymore? Elite has many good things going for it, though it is marred by many imperfections and poor deisgns / implementations. Spacelegs would most likely follow in those footsteps, at least at first. But in the context of Star citizen being seemingly on track for a ten year alpha, and Elite having a less than pefect product, I think that even suboptimal space legs would still be better than no space legs. I, however, admittedly possibly foolishly, hope and expect that the poor early implementation would be developed on, and nurtured into what many of us dream of, eventually.
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